Is Communism the way forward..

TwoShedsJackson · 01-07-2013 09:57AM

WumBuster wrote: »

yes, but i think the previous system used in USSR was flawed on many levels and was not real communism. Capitalist society only gives rise uneven class structures, wealth distribution and poverty.I think capitalism will die out once the worlds major religions lose influence.

The problem with the system, like all political systems, is that humans were involved in running it. Once those ****e-hawks get involved 'ideals' go out the window in favour of greed, sooner or later. Usually sooner.

rossie1977 · 01-07-2013 11:48AM

Chairman Meow wrote: »

It certainly worked out great for Cambodia, Communist Russia, Vietnam and China. What could possibly go wrong?

all authoritarian regimes, communism can exist without authoritarianism

Gbear · 01-07-2013 11:53AM

rossie1977 wrote: »

all authoritarian regimes, communism can exist without authoritarianism

It really can't.

You're putting all the power into the hands of the government. That can only end one way.

At least with ****ty corporations, the influence is split between them and they're often competing with one another.

RoyalMarine · 01-07-2013 11:57AM

We don't need communism. We need a working legal system to properly bring those guilty people / bastards to justice. This will act as a deterrent for future politicians.

Suryavarman · 01-07-2013 12:05PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

all authoritarian regimes, communism can exist without authoritarianism

So you expect that the people that want complete control over your economic activities are suddenly going to leave you alone when it comes to personal life?

Tyranny is the inevitable result of communism. It's completely unavoidable.

seamus · 01-07-2013 12:11PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

all authoritarian regimes, communism can exist without authoritarianism

Only in ideological terms. It's the implementation that fncks it up. As you struggle to maintain a communist society, you find that you require authoritarian controls in place which increase in severity as time goes on.

Mike 1972 · 01-07-2013 12:30PM

The biggest trouble with communism is that the odds are heavily sacked againt a succesful revolution pretty much everywhere.

Therefore in order for such a revolution to succeed it needs to be lead by a particularly ruthless bastard.

Therein lies the problem.

Dartz · 01-07-2013 12:53PM

Russia was never Communist.

Unfortunately,most Communist revolutions fail when the revolution becomes a regime. Human imposed power-structures eventually turn around to become self-serving, barring the path to true Communism as this would lead to their own destruction. The USSR had the nomenklatura as the example. And the ossifying old men who clung on to power in the Kremlin eventually led to the corrosion of the whole Soviet System. The dynamism that drove the development cool **** like Ekranoplans and Sputnik died.

Then a power plant blew up, the shelves were restructure to be bare and the whole lot just sort of said '**** it'.

Still. Better than this ****. The shelves are full, but be ****ed if half the country can't scrounge up the money to pay for it.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 01-07-2013 12:54PM

Viventum wrote: »

We've had bank scandals, hosptial closures and people being pulled from bogs for nothing. Rich people grow richer. The rest of us get poorer.

Is there a future where people can be born knowing they can be an equal to everyone? Everyone is equal and contributes to the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdVTVR-j0Q

Whats stopping us? Why is being a believer in Socialism so bad these days?

A certain way to ensure there is no innovation, no incentive to be productive or to be inventive.
A Communist after all is someone with nothing who wants to share it with everyone!

V4Voluntary · 01-07-2013 01:04PM

A Libertarian would sort this mess out in a week.

Our gombeens are trying desperately to keep the old boys club together.

Carnegie · 01-07-2013 01:50PM

Salary caps are the way to go. Idiots like David Drumm should not be earning salaries of millions of euros a year. I've seen it all the time in companies I have worked in where complete chancers are earning obscene salaries that they don't deserve.

Suryavarman · 01-07-2013 02:29PM

Dartz wrote: »

Russia was never Communist.

Unfortunately,most Communist revolutions fail when the revolution becomes a regime. Human imposed power-structures eventually turn around to become self-serving, barring the path to true Communism as this would lead to their own destruction. The USSR had the nomenklatura as the example. And the ossifying old men who clung on to power in the Kremlin eventually led to the corrosion of the whole Soviet System. The dynamism that drove the development cool **** like Ekranoplans and Sputnik died.

Then a power plant blew up, the shelves were restructure to be bare and the whole lot just sort of said '**** it'.

Still. Better than this ****. The shelves are full, but be ****ed if half the country can't scrounge up the money to pay for it.

The price of toilet roll in this country really is outrageous.

Judgement Day · 01-07-2013 02:30PM

The differences between the various political systems, for the benefit of the OP, from a newspaper cutting given to me by a wise man in County Kerry, some thirty five years ago.

"The Man of Two Cows"

Socialism is when you have two cows, and give one to your neighbour.

Communism is when you have two cows, and the State takes both and gives you milk.

Fascism is when you have two cows, and the State takes both and sells you milk.

Nazism is when you have two cows, and the State takes both and shoots you.

Capitalism is when you have two cows, sell one and buy a bull.

Bureaucracy is when you have two cows, and the State takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain.

Freddy Smelly · 01-07-2013 02:41PM

Viventum wrote: »

We've had bank scandals, hosptial closures and people being pulled from bogs for nothing. Rich people grow richer. The rest of us get poorer.

Is there a future where people can be born knowing they can be an equal to everyone? Everyone is equal and contributes to the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdVTVR-j0Q

Whats stopping us? Why is being a believer in Socialism so bad these days?

the russians tried it... didnt work

the chinese tried it... only the rich got richer

the cubans tried... only castro got rich

ScumLord · 01-07-2013 03:48PM

WumBuster wrote: »

Capitalist society only gives rise uneven class structures, wealth distribution and poverty.

I don't really think that's capitalism's fault, it's just nature, some creatures find better ways of doing things and excel, the handy thing about human society is when we see someone else excelling we can just copy them instead of being left behind trying to evolve.

I think capitalism isn't really a system, but trade is a fundamental part of human society. Trade has been what encouraged humans to travel and interact with other people, it's been there from the very beginning of humanity and it's what separated us from the likes of the neanderthal.

If you think about your trading activity it's probably one of the most social activities you do. It encourages you to travel for deals, you probably spend a percentage of you day conversing with others about trade. With the decline of religion it's probably one of few fundamental social behaviours we still do from prehistoric times.

While I'm very much in the camp of the community comes first and I hate the consumerist society we live in today I can't get around the fact humans need to trade as much as birds needs to sing in the morning and there has to be a market or humans can't be humans.

I think we can have a much safer market, I think necessities like food shouldn't be played with on a market and we need to rework the market so that it doesn't demand constant growth to be successful.

Our economies and markets are made up, we can set whatever rules we want so that wouldn't be a problem. You won't convince the people creaming the current markets to change though.

A Primal Nut · 01-07-2013 05:48PM

Dartz wrote: »

Still. Better than this ****. The shelves are full, but be ****ed if half the country can't scrounge up the money to pay for it.

That's not true at all though, and sounds like communist propaganda against capitalist countries.

epicmoe · 01-07-2013 06:56PM

Links234 wrote: »

the problem is corruption and criminals in the system, switch to a different system, you've still got the same problems.

^^ THIS! the only way, IMO, for any kind of political structure to work anything close to unhindered, is if they are much much smaller, localised systems.

ScumLord · 01-07-2013 07:04PM

epicmoe wrote: »

^^ THIS! the only way, IMO, for any kind of political structure to work anything close to unhindered, is if they are much much smaller, localised systems.

People need to have proper education to go with it. Children should be taught how to be a good person rather than just readied for the workplace.

By good person I don't mean morally either. They should be taught how to be good at being a civilised human being. How to interact with people, how to use politics to resolve conflict, how to evaluate information. We have pretty much no political teachings in this country, how are we supposed to find good politicians if we're not educating any?

Cody Pomeray · 01-07-2013 07:31PM

I do not believe in textbook Marxism because I do not believe in the monopolization of political and economic power.

The reason I do not believe in the monopolization of political and economic power is because it leads to the inevitable exploitation of human beings, and the destruction of their natural rights.

And only in one place has the destruction of man's rights under Communism been surpassed - and that is the destruction of man's rights in the capitalist society.

Capitalism is a fate worse than communism because its goals, offences, and denial of natural, or human, rights are both random and guaranteed.

Not for everyone, of course. Those who benefit under capitalism are the least likely to find it offensive. They are the people in the lifeboats. Why on earth would most of the people in the lifeboats object?

Jonny7 · 01-07-2013 08:06PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

And only in one place has the destruction of man's rights under Communism been surpassed - and that is the destruction of man's rights in the capitalist society.

ookkaay, so which unalienable rights has capitalist society destroyed?

Speisekarte · 01-07-2013 08:17PM

Carnegie wrote: »

Salary caps are the way to go. Idiots like David Drumm should not be earning salaries of millions of euros a year. I've seen it all the time in companies I have worked in where complete chancers are earning obscene salaries that they don't deserve.

Why is it anyone else's business what someone in a private company earns apart from stakeholders in that company?

If shareholders want to waste their investment leave them to it.

Radiosonde · 01-07-2013 08:22PM

Speisekarte wrote: »

Why is it anyone else's business what someone in a private company earns apart from stakeholders in that company?

If shareholders want to waste their investment leave them to it.

It's always nice when irresponsible executives on high salaries waste employees' jobs too. At least an investor only loses what she put in, the people who get laid off lose their livelihoods.

Pumpkinseeds · 01-07-2013 08:26PM

No it is not the way forward. Have you done any research into the reality of communism?

Jonny7 · 01-07-2013 08:35PM

Radiosonde wrote: »

It's always nice when irresponsible executives on high salaries waste employees' jobs too. At least an investor only loses what she put in, the people who get laid off lose their livelihoods.

And there are plenty of useless low-salary employees. It's up to companies and businesses in general to deal with both in order to maintain profitability. If they don't spot incompetent employees regardless of salary - then that's their loss.

Goodyear in France, it's losing 80 million a year, they are only keeping it open because of the employees

Maybe they've long since fired the executive who made that decision.

Carnegie · 01-07-2013 08:53PM

Speisekarte wrote: »

Why is it anyone else's business what someone in a private company earns apart from stakeholders in that company?

If shareholders want to waste their investment leave them to it.

Shareholders have no say in the salaries of employees.

Ravelleman · 01-07-2013 09:21PM

I'm not sure the 19th century metaphysics of Marx are the way forward. Of course, thinkers as early as Bernstein realised that.

You can be committed to social and economic justice without having to label yourself as a communist or even a socialist. More people should accept that.

Private property (as in owning clothes, a car etc) is fine - Marx agreed with that - but I certainly think that capital and production should be socialised to some degree, not because of what Marx predicted but just because it seems fairer.

Ravelleman · 01-07-2013 09:24PM

Carnegie wrote: »

Shareholders have no say in the salaries of employees.

That's an interesting point. Management calls the shots in these situations.

This was also the case in the Soviet Union, where the party bureaucracy (management) became completely detached from the shareholders in society (normal people). Some would argue that all modern ideologies, be they 'fascist', 'communist' or 'capitalist', tend towards this trend.

Speisekarte · 01-07-2013 09:30PM

Radiosonde wrote: »

It's always nice when irresponsible executives on high salaries waste employees' jobs too. At least an investor only loses what she put in, the people who get laid off lose their livelihoods.

That's an issue for the stakeholders. It's not really anyone else's business how a company wastes their resources.

Acacia · 01-07-2013 09:36PM

Yes, then we can have groovy cartoons like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyxYdj9dGcI

Actually saw a very similar cartoon to that in Budapest... I still shudder at the memory!

Karl Stein · 01-07-2013 09:54PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

ookkaay, so which unalienable rights has capitalist society destroyed?

Ask the central and south Americans. Tens of thousands murdered and tortured by regimes and death squads under the auspices of Uncle Sam.

After years of torture and bloodshed, the Somoza dictatorship was toppled on July 19,1979 by the Sandinista National Liberation Front (FSLN). On July 20th, Sandinista soldiers entered Managua amid the fervent cheers and celebration of hundreds of thousands of Nicaraguans. For the first time in Nicaraguan history, newly elected Sandinista officials implemented successful social programs that fostered self-determination. These initiatives achieved international recognition and included gains in the areas of literacy, health care, education, childcare, unions and land reform.

As Nicaraguans worked towards greater self-sufficiency, the Reagan administration started funding the Contra War to undermine the Sandinista government in the early 1980's. This disastrous ten-year war cost 60,000 lives and destroyed the country's infrastructure and economy with estimated losses of U.S. $178 billion dollars.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/arts/nicaragua/discovery_eng/history/background.html

Is Communism the way forward..

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