The Anglo Irish Tapes

Anyone who bought a property in Bulgaria/Portugal, or a car two years after the last one, took out a 110% 40 year mortgage, went for long weekend piss ups in Amsterdam or Prague, bought a patio heater for their back garden decking area was to blame. You were doing it all with fantasy land money.

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone who bought a property in Bulgaria/Portugal, or a car two years after the last one, took out a 110% 40 year mortgage, went for long weekend piss ups in Amsterdam or Prague, bought a patio heater for their back garden decking area was to blame. You were doing it all with fantasy land money.

I want to pick out two bits that you wrote:
- long weekend pissups abroad
- patio heaters and decking and I suppose other household stuff might come in here like a large flatscreen tv.

How do you know that anyone who indulged themselves in such a way did it with fantasy money. I guess what you might mean by fantasy money is borrowed money.

How would you know it was all done with borrowed money? Someone could have worked and saved for their
- long weekend pissups abroad
- for their decking and other household improvements
- for their patio heaters and flatscreen tvs.

Of course if somebody did all of that on your list together, well yes, he/she did party.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Phew! I can still plead not guilty.

But I'm not going to mount my high horse (is that another Celtic tiger appurtenance?) and protest that I didn't party. Who cares whether or not I partied? I'm a member of a society where lots of people partied, and I am still a member of that society where some of those who partied are feeling pain. They are my neighbours, and I want to be a good neighbour to them.

if the horse's name was Waterford Crystal then maybe..

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone who bought a property in Bulgaria/Portugal, or a car two years after the last one, took out a 110% 40 year mortgage, went for long weekend piss ups in Amsterdam or Prague, bought a patio heater for their back garden decking area was to blame. You were doing it all with fantasy land money.

ARE YOU SPYING ON ME? :mad:

:pac:

Agree with all, 'cept maybe the long weekend bit. People still go on hols and mini-breaks, you know. They're not that extortionate! People could well have gone on these with actual money in their bank accounts.

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Greed! What ****ing greed? God forbid we'd want the same tv our European counterparts have. Or a ****ing patio or decking. Or holy ****e, a NEW car. And possibly a nice ****ing house to put them in.
A weak government, a corrupt banking sector and non existent regulator screwed this country and its citizens over.
The uber intelligent members of AH might have seen the folly of it all, but the average Irish soul, unfortunately didn't.
And stop pissing on them for it.

Not well said at all.

Its still in the same 'I want that' mentality. People forget that you have to earn the money first. And they werent earning it. They thought they were, having jobs, getting pay rises, and paying low taxes. Do you really believe the Irish are the most productive people in Europe (aside from the negligible statistical anomaly that is Luxembourg) ? Its pay back time now folks.

BTW, the weak government, corrupt banking sector, or nonexistent regulator arent some other species - you are them.

I was going to add that maybe Ireland is learning reality now the hard way. But it seems it may still not be willing to learn it, prefering to blame others rather than themselves as the culprits for their shattered illusion.

Almaviva wrote: »

Not well said at all.

Its still in the same 'I want that' mentality. People forget that you have to earn the money first. And they werent earning it. They thought they were, having jobs, getting pay rises, and paying low taxes. Do you really believe the Irish are the most productive people in Europe (aside from the negligible statistical anomaly that is Luxembourg) ? Its pay back time now folks.

BTW, the weak government, corrupt banking sector, or nonexistent regulator arent some other species - you are them.

I was going to add that maybe Ireland is learning reality now the hard way. But it seems it may still not be willing to learn it, prefering to blame others rather than themselves as the culprits for their shattered illusion.

The Irish people were round up like sheep and hurdled along a corridor which led to the boomtime scenario. Whether it was referendums being forced over and over until the desired response was drawn out, the will of the people was relentlessly pushed into a default position that suited the values of a much larger European style program. Ireland didn't just benefit, everyone was benefiting.
The Americans then offloaded their debt to Europe.

Do you know why the Irish people don't resist?
Because everytime they did another referendum was held. People tried to say no but they got assraped anyway. They're psychologically burned out now.

K-9 wrote: »

Nice was the only Referendum reran during the bubble times.

I don't think a referendum reran in 2002 is to blame for the housing/credit bubble between 1996 and 2006.

Lisbon was at the end of the bubble, so that's an extremely tenuous link to come up with the Irish people being ass raped!

you don't think.
The link to europe was neccessary for Ireland growth, it started before 2002 but could have been well managed if events has taken another turn.
The association between rejected referendums is reflective of how difficult it was for Ireland (the Irish electorate) to assert it's voice in an evergrowing sea of European conflation and confusion.
Even when they specifically stated they didn't want something, they were forced to take it whether they wanted to or not. That's not democracy. Thats an education in how to bend over and take it up the arse.

Oh without doubt the PD's were central force for liberalising the economy but this is not about shedding responsibility at all, I find it disgusting, especially in light of the tapes, how at the end of the day it still comes down to the average Irish joe to shoulder the burden. It was an all in situation, what the referendums show however is that when they wanted out they were denied the right to do so, politically and strategically. It's a small act but has had significant effect on the Irish ability to oppose the status quo.
The Irish people have a terrible guilt complex as is, many of them already feel responsible for the scenario.

Almaviva wrote: »

Not well said at all.

Its still in the same 'I want that' mentality. People forget that you have to earn the money first. And they werent earning it. They thought they were, having jobs, getting pay rises, and paying low taxes. Do you really believe the Irish are the most productive people in Europe (aside from the negligible statistical anomaly that is Luxembourg) ? Its pay back time now folks.

How do you know?
Some people weren't earning it - some were.
Some people got the decking, but not the car, or mortgage - and paid for it!
You are making blanket statements about an entire nation - and it's patently ridiculous!
By the way, I've never had a mortgage, new car, or decking - nor do I want them.

Almaviva wrote: »

BTW, the weak government, corrupt banking sector, or nonexistent regulator arent some other species - you are them.

Almaviva wrote: »

I was going to add that maybe Ireland is learning reality now the hard way. But it seems it may still not be willing to learn it, prefering to blame others rather than themselves as the culprits for their shattered illusion.

Explain?

K-9 wrote: »

Which is why I don't agree with apologising for some Anglo bankers taking the piss out of Germany, they're just jumped up bankers taking advantage of a life line they got, the fact that they are Irish is irrelevant, that scene could have been played out in New York or London, I'd be shocked if it didn't. There's a cultural issue amongst bankers and traders, a massive, serious issue, and it isn't get the real attention it should be getting amidst all the nationality angst.

I remember reading a piece saying if you think the Anglo stuff is shocking, well, this is actually pretty tame! These guys really are in a world of their own. The problem is they've been let dictate terms for so long, I don't know what can be done to end it.

+ 1000 on the banking "culture".

As to how to end their dictating terms, I propose that:

A: Our legislators take a long hard look at our legal system.

By "legislators", I don't mean the schoolteachers et al in the Dail. I mean the High and Supreme court judges with experience in Corporate law, together with as many senior Barristers as may be required, to make recommendations on how our laws need to be updated to ensure that any loopholes preventing prosecution are firmly shut.
It wouldn't ensure that those who participated in illegality pre-2013 would be convicted - but it would certainly act as a deterrent to any future fraud.

It would be money better spent, imo, than on an enquiry that could only realistically lay blame on TDs/Ministers from the previous Government (FF/Greens) - whilst not being able to say a word about the Dept of Finance, Central Bank, or individuals from other Banks, no matter how culpable those people may be.

B: We really need to act on the results of the previous enquiries re: skills shortages in the Dept. of Finance, etc. (That may already have been addressed, I haven't checked!)
I suspect that a decent team of business Consultants could find plenty of areas for improvement in the upper echelons of the Civil Service, whether in skills shortages, or systems used.

C: I read an article recently that bemoaned the lack of a dedicated task force, complete with forensic accountants, to deal with white-collar crime.
I was amazed to discover we actually don't have such a unit. We have CAB - but they're tasked with seizing assets - not criminal investigations into white-collar crime.

Last, but not least - Regulation.
This one is probably the most difficult. I welcomed the agreement by the finance Ministers recently to ensure that Bondholders took a hit in the event of Bank failure. Theoretically, it should help ensure that financial institutions are more prudent.
Unfortunately, it does nothing to address the issue of possible fraudulent accounts, or indeed, to control the "profit at all costs" mentality of the Bondholders themselves.

Ireland, in and of itself, cannot introduce legislation to regulate it's Banks to ensure safe lending practices. Nor was Ireland the only Country to suffer the effects of an imprudent Banking system.
That would need the co-operation of the EU, and America.
I predict that the politics of "protecting the financial industry" will get in the way.
And, if it does - it will be the greatest failing of Governments - worldwide - this century.
I don't have the financial expertise to make recommendations on how to fix the Banking system. I have enough common sense to know it's broken, though. I also have enough common sense to know that Politicians don't generally have the expertise to know how to fix it - but they most certainly do
have access to the worlds best economists and accountants, and they should be asking for advice.
Whether or not they decide to do so, collectively, is the true reflection of their ability, and desire, to be "representatives of the people"