Have you ever been to a Brothel

Speisekarte · 30-06-2013 07:59PM

Obliq wrote: »

Why don't you use cleaner as an example? After all it's more similar in that, as I've said,that work will often be untaxed and illegal. That leaves the cleaner in the position of taking the (potential) heat for being caught, much like sex workers (but obviously without high risk of violence towards them, poor self-esteem/lifestyle and association with dodgy elements like dealers and pimps - a step up from sex working eh?!).

Cleaners don't clean other people's toilets for fun (and most would rather do something else to earn a few quid), but they are offered illegal work and "are free to choose not to do it", as you say......but tellingly, wouldn't be doing it if it weren't for their "clients" offering them money to do illegal work. They would be struggling more than without the money, mind, so there's your coercion, right there...think about it.

And what's wrong with that? Aside from not adhering to tax laws etc.

The person offering work is doing them a favour and giving them an extra choice.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 08:06PM

Speisekarte wrote: »

And what's wrong with that? Aside from not adhering to tax laws etc.

The person offering work is doing them a favour and giving them an extra choice.

Now honestly Speisekarte, I've just come from a thread where I thought "I've seen some dumb shìt in my time...", and that's why I love Boards, because people continue to amaze me, such as the way you've just outdone another posters opinion in the "dumb as fcuk" opinion stakes!

At this stage I have to believe you're being purposely obtuse and unreasonable.

Obliq · 30-06-2013 08:18PM

Speisekarte wrote: »

And what's wrong with that? Aside from not adhering to tax laws etc.

The person offering work is doing them a favour and giving them an extra choice.

Do you honestly not see that the demand for these kinds of illegal work is what enables the industry to keep going as it is? Do you not feel in any way responsible for keeping the prices so low, by keeping people earning a pittance for what they do (the charge to you for either sex-work or cleaning is not including prsi or any kind of insurance)? Do you not think that sex-workers (and cleaners!) would rather work in a regulated industry where they didn't have to break the law by doing what they do?

Fact is, it suits many people to keep things as they are, but if you asked sex-workers (or cleaners), I'm pretty sure they'd recommend some changes to their "ah sure they're free not to choose it" profession.....that's what's wrong with it. You pay too little for a service and don't give a flying f*ck about the person who is needing the money in spite of the risks. That.

If sex working was legal, there ain't many who'd try to afford the nice clean brothels I reckon - most would still be COERCING people on the street. Nice morals there.

It's not a choice, if you cannot get work in the industry in a regulated and above board way.

MaroonAndGreen · 30-06-2013 08:30PM

They are humans selling themselves for sex, I cant help but feel they are inferior if they are doing that!

Yeah there humans, but I wouldnt put them in the same bracket as someone normal

Obliq · 30-06-2013 08:43PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

They are humans selling themselves for sex, I cant help but feel they are inferior if they are doing that!

Yeah there humans, but I wouldnt put them in the same bracket as someone normal

That's a revolting attitude. Ever heard the words "there but for the grace of god go I"? I'm not religious at all, but the point I'm making is that you're bloody lucky to have (by fault of birth/circumstances when young) not found yourself in the position where that choice looked like a viable plan of action. Gotta say, your post is so unthinking that it's not altogether "normal" in my book.

Zen65 · 30-06-2013 09:04PM

Obliq wrote: »

You pay too little for a service and don't give a flying f*ck about the person who is needing the money in spite of the risks.

I think there's sense to this argument, but it applies to a very wide range of goods and services in the global economy.

Buying a pair of shoes for €5 from a shop like Penneys is clearly supporting a regime in some third-world country where a factory is staffed by low-paid workers whose health & safety is being treated with disdain. We all have seen these factories, and yet people choose to ignore that detail and buy their shoes at a price which precludes the possibility of moral exchange of money for labour.

Of course, it is equally true to say that if you pay €100 for a pair of shoes you cannot be sure that the factory where they were made was managed in a responsible way. You have, however, paid a reasonable price for those shoes and so it is fair to say that you have enabled responsible action in that case.

Similarly if you pay a cleaner (or plumber or dentist) a fair price for their work, you have surely behaved responsibly.

So the moral question which has been posed by a number of posters here amounts to this: If you pay a fair price, is the act of purchasing sex wrong in itself?

I have to say that I don't think it is, provided that the necessary health & safety measures to protect the sex worker (and client) are in place. I have no idea whether there are any brothels in Ireland which operate in a manner where the sex worker gets a fair cut of the price, and is therefore in a position to contribute towards her pension, to cover her medical costs, & to live a life with dignity. However the Red Light district in Amsterdam appears to be operated in a responsible way, with the sex workers themselves being in control of their own trade (no pimps) and able to earn a decent living from it. I've not used their services (nor the services of any prostitute / brothel) so I've not had the chance to discuss the issue with one of the ladies working there.

It is my view that with proper regulation, brothels could be perfectly safe service providers, and their services might actually reduce rather than spread STIs in the country. Based on the figures on one website alone it would appear that escorting in Ireland is an industry worth €150 Million annually, so I'd like to see some of that being included in the taxation net. If the Japanese ever do invent fatbatman's robots it will all end overnight anyway

Much of what has been posted here on this thread seems to me to be deflecting from that question; the references to human trafficking and coercion serve only to cloud the issue - there is nobody on this Forum who would condone such things, but they are not necessarily an attribute of sex work.

Z

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 09:05PM

I think it seems like a decent job for the women who do it. Some do seem to have become damaged internally by it as it shows on the outside, but others seem like they're almost laughing at how easy the money is for such easy work. It's the responsibility of the prospective sex worker to assess whether they will become damaged by partaking in it, if they make the wrong choice by going into it anyway, that's their fault. Some sex workers, especially the foreign ones, are strong internally and can handle it, and are delighted with their situation. The anti-sex work crowd vehemently don't want anyone to know this.

Legs.Eleven · 30-06-2013 09:13PM

fatbatman wrote: »

I think it seems like a decent job for the women who do it. Some do seem to have become damaged internally by it as it shows on the outside, but others seem like they're almost laughing at how easy the money is for such easy work. It's the responsibility of the prospective sex worker to assess whether they will become damaged by partaking in it, if they make the wrong choice by going into it anyway, that's their fault. Some sex workers, especially the foreign ones, are strong internally and can handle it, and are delighted with their situation. The anti-sex work crowd vehemently don't want anyone to know this.

Out of genuine curiosity, you seem to know so much about the minds of sex-workers. How?

Zen65 · 30-06-2013 09:17PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

They are humans selling themselves for sex, I cant help but feel they are inferior if they are doing that!

Inferior? Wow!

People sell themselves every day, allowing their talents to be used by corporations in exchange for cash. People sell insurance policies they know to be defective, beauty treatments they know to be worthless, and cigarettes they know to be carcinogenic, but that's ok with you? Selling sex must make you inferior because . . . . somebody told you that sex itself was bad in some way???

Z

Manc-Red · 30-06-2013 09:42PM

I could understand some bloke that looked like he got a smack of a bus going to a brothel, or some bloke say that his bird/wife was either dead or paralyzed.

Other than that I think it's a scummy place to go - I honestly wouldn't have the bottle to do it though, I like to think it's nice to know the person you are about to bang.... having a bit of lust & all that jazz of someone that's real.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 09:44PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Out of genuine curiosity, you seem to know so much about the minds of sex-workers. How?

I said "seem". Are you refuting that there are sex workers who do not become emotionally damaged by their work and consider it to be relatively easy money?

Legs.Eleven · 30-06-2013 09:50PM

fatbatman wrote: »

I said "seem". Are you refuting that there are sex workers who do not become emotionally damaged by their work and consider it to be relatively easy money?

Nope, course I'm not. Twas a simple question. If you don't want to answer it, no worries.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 09:50PM

Zen65 wrote: »

I think there's sense to this argument, but it applies to a very wide range of goods and services in the global economy.

Normalising exploitation only helps people turn a blind eye to it.

However the Red Light district in Amsterdam appears to be operated in a responsible way, with the sex workers themselves being in control of their own trade (no pimps) and able to earn a decent living from it. I've not used their services (nor the services of any prostitute / brothel) so I've not had the chance to discuss the issue with one of the ladies working there.

The Amsterdam Experiment has been a disaster.

It is my view that with proper regulation, brothels could be perfectly safe service providers, and their services might actually reduce rather than spread STIs in the country.

Now Z, in all fairness, that's a leap that would make even Superman blush!

Based on the figures on one website alone it would appear that escorting in Ireland is an industry worth €150 Million annually, so I'd like to see some of that being included in the tax net.

Now Z, if escorting and sex work were to be legalised and legislated for (even in the UK they call it working in the entertainment industry, alternative therapies industry, anything but sex worker, even though that's perfectly legal!), what chance do you think there is that the government coffers would even see €150 in income from that €150 million? And that's not even getting into the amount of more affluent UK sex workers who fly in on a regular basis and wouldn't even be required to pay tax here.

Much of what has been posted here on this thread seems to me to be deflecting from that question; the references to human trafficking and coercion serve only to cloud the issue - there is nobody on this Forum who would condone such things, but they are not necessarily an attribute of sex work.

Ahh now! I know, I know - you want empirical, irrefutable evidence because you won't take my word for it, and of course I cannot provide such evidence so you must be right. I can't argue that point then.

My argument isn't the morality of sex work, but rather the economic fallacy of it, and when you drill down into the figures, they just don't add up to be of any benefit to an economy or to society.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 09:53PM

You're as poor at economics as you are with logic? Doesn't surprise me.. Se we have a concept called supply and demand. The demand for sex is much greater than the supply. This offers an opportunity for sex work to come in and is why it's such a lucrative business.

Pug160 · 30-06-2013 09:59PM

The bottom line is that sex will always be sold whether it's liked or not, and no amount of debating is going to change that. So if we're left with that simple fact, the best thing to do is compromise and put into place decent legislation. Regulating it isn't going to solve all of the problems but neither is putting your fingers in your ear and signing and hoping it will all go away.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 10:08PM

fatbatman wrote: »

I think it seems like a decent job for the women who do it. Some do seem to have become damaged internally by it as it shows on the outside, but others seem like they're almost laughing at how easy the money is for such easy work. It's the responsibility of the prospective sex worker to assess whether they will become damaged by partaking in it, if they make the wrong choice by going into it anyway, that's their fault.

The Irish Government doesn't have the luxury of your tunnel vision. It has a duty to ALL it's citizens, not just the citizens that want to get their rocks off as cheap and conveniently as possible.

Some sex workers, especially the foreign ones, are strong internally and can handle it, and are delighted with their situation. The anti-sex work crowd vehemently don't want anyone to know this.

And the pearls of ill informed wisdom just keep coming... :pac:

HansHolzel · 30-06-2013 10:10PM

Did you or didn't you ever buy a woman a drink? That's all that the rest of us want to know.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 10:33PM

fatbatman wrote: »

You're as poor at economics as you are with logic? Doesn't surprise me.. Se we have a concept called supply and demand.

It's not for me to make fun of your pìss poor grasp of economics, but without waving my economic theory e-penis about the place, have you ever heard of a false economy or an artificially inflated market? Pump and dump? Short and distort?

Neither did half the people that listened to Eddie Hobbs and David McWilliams who told them where to invest their new found artificial wealth. They're paying dearly now for their short sighted ignorance while Hobbs, McWilliams et al are talking from the other side of their mouths about economic recovery.

The demand for sex is much greater than the supply. This offers an opportunity for sex work to come in and is why it's such a lucrative business.

It's not as lucrative a business as you foolishly might be given to believe, otherwise there'd be a majority involved in it rather than the minority that actually want it. The market really ISN'T all that big. €150 million is chump change in most Government Budgets, let alone a pìss poor country such as our own.

You'll need to make sex work a much more attractive proposition before it will ever be regulated in this country, and even at that, the next time you meet a sex worker, ask them would they like to see the industry regulated, come back and tell me what they say. There aren't too many sex workers foolish enough to want to see the sex industry regulated, and the more affluent independent sex workers even less so.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 10:43PM

Pug160 wrote: »

The bottom line is that sex will always be sold whether it's liked or not, and no amount of debating is going to change that. So if we're left with that simple fact, the best thing to do is compromise and put into place decent legislation. Regulating it isn't going to solve all of the problems but neither is putting your fingers in your ear and signing and hoping it will all go away.

There's an even more effective solution Pug that has been proven to work in my experience - education.

If you educate people early enough, you you give them more choices, alternative choices, fully informed choices, then should they choose to get into sex work, they are fully informed in the choices they make and they have the knowledge to protect themselves and be completely self employed and self sufficient.

In my experience though, the more you educate a person, and the more choices you give them, the less chance there is that they will want to go into sex work in the first place, or choose to stay in sex work. If you motivate people to fulfill their potential, they can earn far more in an alternative career than they would ever have earned in the sex industry.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 10:49PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

Did you or didn't you ever buy a woman a drink? That's all that the rest of us want to know.

I have bought women drinks, exercising my free will to do so, without the expectation of a possible sexual encounter.

I have never been coerced to pay for a woman's drink with the enticement of a possible sexual encounter.

How clear can I make this? :pac:

HansHolzel · 30-06-2013 10:56PM

By the sound of it, you've probably bought a few drinks for your female relations at family gatherings and that's been it.

Daveysil15 · 30-06-2013 10:57PM

Manc-Red wrote: »

I could understand some bloke that looked like he got a smack of a bus going to a brothel, or some bloke say that his bird/wife was either dead or paralyzed.

Let's not forget the Premiership footballers who enjoy casual sex without the fear of the woman selling her story to the tabloids.

Manc-Red · 30-06-2013 10:58PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Let's not forget the Premiership footballers who enjoy casual sex without the fear of the woman selling her story to the tabloids.

Indeed

Pug160 · 30-06-2013 10:59PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's an even more effective solution Pug that has been proven to work in my experience - education.

If you educate people early enough, you you give them more choices, alternative choices, fully informed choices, then should they choose to get into sex work, they are fully informed in the choices they make and they have the knowledge to protect themselves and be completely self employed and self sufficient.

In my experience though, the more you educate a person, and the more choices you give them, the less chance there is that they will want to go into sex work in the first place, or choose to stay in sex work. If you motivate people to fulfill their potential, they can earn far more in an alternative career than they would ever have earned in the sex industry.

But it is some of those educated people who are actually selling sex to fund their education. It's extremely condescending to suggest that every woman who sells sex is uneducated. The simple truth is that quite a lot of cash can be made in a short space of time, and to some people it is very appealing when compared to the sort of money bar work or working in a shop would get them. Whether or not you or I or anybody else agrees with it is irrelevant. The fact is that it happens and as long as we live in a world where money has a lot of power it will continue to happen. I think it will become increasing popular for certain girls actually, as the cost of education increases.

Daveysil15 · 30-06-2013 11:04PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I have bought women drinks, exercising my free will to do so, without the expectation of a possible sexual encounter.

I have never been coerced to pay for a woman's drink with the enticement of a possible sexual encounter.

How clear can I make this? :pac:

You sound a bit like a politician - a lot of waffle with no straight answer. Do you work for Fianna Fail by any chance?

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 11:04PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Let's not forget the Premiership footballers who enjoy casual sex without the fear of the woman selling her story to the tabloids.

I'm not sure Dave if you're actually serious, but I've got two words for you - Wayne, Rooney :pac:

Daveysil15 · 30-06-2013 11:08PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm not sure Dave if you're actually serious, but I've got two words for you - Wayne, Rooney :pac:

I think I've seen him here on boards a few times.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 11:20PM

Pug160 wrote: »

But it is some of those educated people who are actually selling sex to fund their education. It's extremely condescending to suggest that every woman who sells sex is uneducated.

I never made any such suggestion if you actually read my post, and it's not just women who sell sex either (I thought I'd made that much clear at least!).

The simple truth is that quite a lot of cash can be made in a short space of time, and to some people it is very appealing when compared to the sort of money bar work or working in a shop would get them.

But if you educate people early enough (I'm talking primary school level, you wouldn't believe the shìt some eight year olds get up to nowadays, it'd make your ears bleed!), and put structures in place to encourage them to see that they have alternatives choices, they themselves are inspired to create their own opportunities and they don't NEED to get into sex work to fund their education.

Whether or not you or I or anybody else agrees with it is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to you perhaps, not to me.

The fact is that it happens and as long as we live in a world where money has a lot of power it will continue to happen.

Absolutely, at least we can agree on that much, I'm not such an idealist that some days it doesn't feel like I'm bailing out the sea with a teaspoon!

I think it will become increasing popular for certain girls actually, as the cost of education increases.

I admire your amateur fortune telling powers Pug, they're about as good as your amateur psychoanalytical skills. I wouldn't give up the day job just yet though if I were you.

Pug160 · 30-06-2013 11:56PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I never made any such suggestion if you actually read my post, and it's not just women who sell sex either (I thought I'd made that much clear at least!).

But if you educate people early enough (I'm talking primary school level, you wouldn't believe the shìt some eight year olds get up to nowadays, it'd make your ears bleed!), and put structures in place to encourage them to see that they have alternatives choices, they themselves are inspired to create their own opportunities and they don't NEED to get into sex work to fund their education.

Irrelevant to you perhaps, not to me.

Absolutely, at least we can agree on that much, I'm not such an idealist that some days it doesn't feel like I'm bailing out the sea with a teaspoon!

I admire your amateur fortune telling powers Pug, they're about as good as your amateur psychoanalytical skills. I wouldn't give up the day job just yet though if I were you.

They already know that they have alternative choices. But in some cases those alternative choices don't look as appealing financially. And my fortune telling powers at least have logic and reason to back them up.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (at least I don't think it has) are the other avenues some people go down to earn money from sex. Sugar daddy websites are becoming increasingly popular with young women wanting to fund their education.

It will never cease. You're entitled to your opinion on it but as we all are but your opinion is irrelevant because it's not going to stop it happening. That's why it's irrelevant. I think instead of beating yourself up about this topic you should just admit to yourself that some people make a conscious, educated decision to make money selling sex. It may not fit into your own personal ideology but that's something you'll have to accept. We live in a very cynical world. Your world is pure fantasy I'm afraid.

Czarcasm · 01-07-2013 12:31AM

Pug160 wrote: »

They already know that they have alternative choices. But in some cases those alternative choices don't look as appealing financially. And my fortune telling powers at least have logic and reason to back them up.

I think we had this discussion in this thread already that of course your own logic is going to seem logical to you, but that logic is based on an ill informed opinion and therefore your logic is flawed.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (at least I don't think it has) are the other avenues some people go down to earn money from sex. Sugar daddy websites are becoming increasingly popular with young women wanting to fund their education.

There's a multitude of avenues haven't been covered in this thread Pug simply because it is about sex workers, and how people choose to fund their education through other avenues is probably best left to another thread.

It will never cease. You're entitled to your opinion on it but as we all are but your opinion is irrelevant because it's not going to stop it happening. That's why it's irrelevant.

My opinion may be irrelevant to you, but it's not irrelevant to the people I have spent the last nearly 20 years helping to give them more choices in life. I'll take their opinion over your ill informed opinion any day if you don't mind.

I think instead of beating yourself up about this topic you should just admit to yourself that some people make a conscious, educated decision to make money selling sex.

Pug I told you already to stop trying to psychoanalyse me, I'm not beating myself up about anything, and I am only too well aware that people make a conscious, educated decision to make money selling sex, and I support them, though I do not support their decision, and they are aware of that and still we've been friends for the last nearly 20 years or so. I am all for people making conscious, educated, well informed decisions.

It may not fit into your own personal ideology but that's something you'll have to accept. We live in a very cynical world. Your world is pure fantasy I'm afraid.

It's NOT something I HAVE to accept though, I am perfectly entitled to do what I can to change it. The only one of us who is living in a fantasy world is the person who is willing to hand over money to fulfill their fantasies, those who fail to see they could have those fantasies fulfilled for free!

But, alas, they lack the motivation to do so.

Have you ever been to a Brothel

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