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George Zimmerman's Trial

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Most important part of the case was what was happening just before Trayvon got shot, in my opinion.

    Probably receiving this:

    http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4925929087828623&pid=15.1
    http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4527794245010394&pid=15.1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Amerika wrote: »
    Probably receiving this:

    The blood looks dramatic. Cleaned up, however -

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02223/zimmerman_2223840b.jpg

    - I'm seriously struggling to find the"25-30" blows Zimmerman reported sustaining, nor am I seeing anything like a plausible impression of somebody who's had his head hopped off the pavement a load of times. Likewise, the complete lack of defensive wounds, or any of Zimmerman's DNA on Martin's hands don't lend themselves at all to his story of a prolonged, one-sided, knock-down drag-out struggle.

    That's a pretty big hole in his story from the get-go. And it's not just me suggesting as much - while I don't subscribe to the theory that the injuries were self-inflicted, they still actually contradict his account, which even the police officer interviewing him right afterwards explicitly asserted.

    I don't know who swung first. But I am pretty comfortable in saying that Zimmerman either knowingly or otherwise presented a false account of the confrontation. A confrontation he created, and then ultimately escalated to a fatal conclusion. Which isn't a great foot to start on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun


    He didn't "create the confrontation".
    Saint Trayvon doubled back and attacked Zimmerman, when what he should have done was gone into his father's house. And the extent of the injuries don't tell the whole story: he had a gun, a gun that Trayvon was trying to grab and maybe use on Zim. He acted in self-defense.

    Anyways, even if he is acquitted (which I pray he is), he will be lucky to escape the wrath of those baying for his blood.

    This Chicago policeman is already issuing warnings for what he predicts will be terrible riots:

    http://www.infowars.com/ex-chicago-cop-zimmerman-acquittal-to-cause-race-riots/

    It took a lot of guts for the witnesses today to testify in Zim's favour (saying TM was on top of Zim, etc)....given the kinds of pressure they are under from these savages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 Awakened




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun




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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 817 ✭✭✭audman




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun


    Uh, no thanks, lol.........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Ruudi_Mentari


    Zim Zimma


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭Amazingfun


    This is wild:

    This Video Could Be a BIG Problem for the Prosecution in Zimmerman Case
    BY
    GRETA VAN SUSTEREN
    // JUN 29 2013 // 10:52AM
    Greta Van Susteren will be in the courtroom for the Zimmerman trial on Monday. On the Record will air live from Florida on Monday night. Read her thoughts on the biggest problem facing the prosecution.

    First, as it stands now, (and ONLY my guess and it is early and much can change) do not expect George Zimmerman to take the witness stand (although he has a Constitutional right to do so if he wants to do so.)

    This re-enactment video will help you understand the scene of the shooting according to George Zimmerman and is in his words. It is also a horrible video for the prosecution.

    Right after the shooting, Zimmerman took the police to the scene and talked to them….walked them through the incident. You will have to sit through a short ad to see the video — but this video is worth watching as it is George Zimmerman in his own words, showing you the scene and before he has a lawyer. Of course at the time of the video, he (like anyone involved in a shooting) had a motive to slant the facts in his favor but it is noteworthy that the reenactment with the police was done right after the incident and before he had a lawyer.

    Here is a potential pitfall Zimmerman faces: he did several interviews with the media (including on Fox News.) I have not sorted through all his interviews but if in any interview he said something materially different from this one, expect the prosecution to use the material inconsistency (lie?) to argue to the jury that he is a liar. This is one reason lawyers don’t want their clients talking to the media. It locks them in.

    Will the jury see this re-enactment video? Maybe not. If the prosecution wants to show it, the prosecution can. I doubt the prosecution wants to show this video to the jury. It damages the prosecution’s case.

    Can the defense present it? Probably not. In all likelihood, absent Zimmerman taking the stand and subjecting himself to cross examination, the defense can’t just pop it into a player for the jury to see since the prosecution can’t ‘cross examine’ Zimmerman’s statements on the tape and the prosecution has a right to ask questions of evidence / witnesses presented.

    The prosecution has the right to introduce the re-enactment video themselves (and other video statements of the defendant) as a statement of the defendant. However, I doubt the prosecution would want to present this video to the jury (but, see below the red text and you will note the prosecution may be backed into a corner and showing it or risk having the jury think it is hiding evidence from them.)

    If the prosecution does not present the video to the jury during the trial (and they won’t want to unless there are other videos out there in stark contrast to make this video look dishonest), here is what I would do as the defense lawyer for Zimmerman: I would make sure the police officer in the re-enactment video with Zimmerman was asked about it on the witness stand when called as a witness to discuss the investigation. By doing that, I would make sure the jury was aware that the video existed. I would specifically ask the officer (detective) if the re-enactment had been taped (and of course the answer is yes.) I would also ask if the prosecution / police have the tape (and the answer is yes.)

    Then…in closing argument….assuming the prosecution had not shown the re-enactment video, I would, as Zimmerman’s lawyer, argue to the jury: ”why didn’t the prosecution show you this re-enactment tape in their possession…taken on the day after the shooting when Zimmerman did not yet have a lawyer? There is a reason and you Members of the Jury all know it….are they hiding something from you?”



    Read more: http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/06/29/prosecutions-giant-problem-zimmerman-case#ixzz2Xcr5rr9G

    Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PX1sxARNq_c#at=34


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭camel jockey


    The only racism was from the lad calling Mr Zimmerman a cracker.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭Chloe29


    Yeah have read a bit about it here
    http://www.chillingcrimes.com/newpost/who-made-george-zimmerman-god/

    So seems that Zimmerman saw himself as a bit of a cop. Watching the closing now on
    http://www.wftv.com/s/zimmerman-livestream/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭Academic


    If anyone's interested in the actual legal definitions of the charges in question and the related standards of proof, you might find the judge's instructions to the jury useful:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/document-instructions-george-zimmerman-jury/nYnqZ/

    Cheers,

    Ac


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    The only racism was from the lad calling Mr Zimmerman a cracker.

    Wrong!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Montroseee wrote: »
    A quick search on twitter will show there are thousands of black people around the states threatening to riot and loot if Zimmerman walks.

    If he goes down, this white person is setting her hair on fire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭CormacPR8


    Academic wrote: »
    If anyone's interested in the actual legal definitions of the charges in question and the related standards of proof, you might find the judge's instructions to the jury useful:

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/document-instructions-george-zimmerman-jury/nYnqZ/

    Cheers,

    Ac

    The problem with that is that is doesn't support TM's case. Since the law and facts do not support their argument people resort to calling GZ a racist, child abuser, etc. Unfortunately, they haven't a clue as to what they are talking about and most likely never will.

    GZ a white/hispanic man would be the first white supremacist of hispanic ancestry in the KKK I bet. Like seriously, anybody actually trying to convict him is clearing too emotionally invested in this case. The kid was a punk but nobody attacks him. At 17 years old I know I could have taken GZ and I think this kid could have as well from photos.

    A witch hunt like this completely undermines the process, and to be honest there should not even be a media presence in the courtroom in my opinion.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,807 ✭✭✭castie


    How do you beat the crap out of someone and not get their DNA on you?

    A very very very useful skill but doubt its possible :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭camel jockey


    Wrong!

    Why so? Do you consider 'cracker' a racist term?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Friend Computer


    It's ironic you should say that, given your username.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    castie wrote: »
    How do you beat the crap out of someone and not get their DNA on you?

    A very very very useful skill but doubt its possible :rolleyes:

    Now that you have a degree from CSI are you going to get a masters from Law and Order??


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 482 ✭✭Hayte


    I watched several days worth of footage from the trial including the drafting of and oral delivery of the jury instructions and the verdict and I got the feeling at the jury instructions stage that the prosecution were making the wrong case. The charge should have been manslaughter by way of culpable negligence.

    Even so the big issue as I saw it was the burden of proof. At all times the prosecution had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the killing was unlawful.

    Zimmerman did not contest the fact that he shot and killed Martin but argued that he did so in self defense. In raising an affirmative defense, the burden of proof is still on the prosecution. So it was up to the state to establish that the threat to Zimmerman was not imminent, that the belief he would be met with great bodily harm (lethal force) was not reasonable and that he did not meet the threat with the appropriate degree of force.

    I don't think the State met this burden of proof.

    Zimmerman's own defense relied on the fact that he was not competent enough to properly assess and deal with a threat. The "force instructor" and MMA/Gym trainer really drilled that point home. These were expert witnesses called by the defense.

    In that window of time (lasting only a few minutes) where there is a loud "bump" heard in Martin's cellphone conversation with Rachel Jeantel and when Zimmerman's line with Sean Noffke goes dead, there is not enough evidence to say definitely who instigated or escalated the fight which ended up with Martin getting fatally shot. There were no witnesses other than Zimmerman and Martin.

    The defense posited that Martin ambushed Zimmerman but there was no firm evidence of this and no witnesses who saw who started what. There was (conflicting) witness testimony of who had the upper hand prior to Martin getting shot but none of it particularly concrete. There was expert witness testimony given by Dennis Root that it is normal to have conflicting witness testimony because every witness has a different vantage point on the scene which can be influenced by many external factors.

    I thought that George Zimmerman's injuries were inconsistent with what George Zimmerman said had happened, namely that his head was repeatedly smashed into the ground. He alleged that we was punched in the nose but other than his own testimony there is no proof this happened. I thought it was entirely possible that he could have sustained the injuries he did during a struggle and that these could have been accidental and could have happened to either party regardless of who started the fight.

    A bloody, fractured nose does not mean someone punched you and thus instigated the fight. It doesn't discount the possibility that you may have been the aggressor, got into a struggle and then sustained a fractured nose as the other person flailed or fought back. So I don't think it could have been used in court to back anything up. All we know is that a something happened in those few minutes resulting in these injuries and there were no living witnesses except George Zimmerman.

    We do know that George attempted to follow Martin on foot prior to getting injured but following someone in and of itself is not instigating a fight. Just like looking at houses with a hoodie up whilst walking at night does not mean you are going to case the joint.

    The devil was in the details but overall, I think the defense didn't win so much as the prosecution lost. I was dismayed by the defense's closing statement because it distorted the narrative to such a painful degree that its not hard to see why the racial profiling angle is getting airplay. I nevertheless think any possible federal hate crime charges are doomed to fail because I don't think there is enough proof to overcome Zimmerman's presumption of innocence. What was revealed during the trial suggested more negligence and incompetence resulting in the death of a 17 year old boy. He jumped to the wrong conclusion about Martin based on too little information (of which it can be argued there is a racial profiling argument). He disregarded the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin (which is as much for his own safety as anything else since the point is to not escalate the situation into a hostile encounter). When he got into a physical altercation, he couldn't get out of it because according to his gym instructor, he hadn't progressed beyond a training dummy and had no experience fighting a live opponent in controlled conditions (nevermind uncontrolled conditions).

    But I find the whole case very troubling because no matter what, the end result is that an armed adult shot and killed an unarmed minor. This has been admitted and the shooter walked. Martin loses his life, his family loses everything else and there is no restitution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,096 ✭✭✭conorhal


    What this case really underlines is that nothing has changed since Tom Wolfe wrote 'Bonfire of the Vanities' back in 1987.

    Plot summary from Wiki:

    The story centers on Sherman McCoy, a wealthy New York City bond trader with a wife and young daughter. His life as a self-regarded "Master of The Universe" on Wall Street is destroyed when he and his mistress, Maria Ruskin, accidentally enter the Bronx at night while they are driving to Manhattan from Kennedy Airport. Finding the ramp back to the highway blocked by trash cans and a tire, McCoy exits the car to clear the way. Approached by two black men whom they perceive—uncertainly, in Sherman's case—as predators, McCoy and Ruskin flee. Having taken the wheel of the car, which fishtails as they race away, Ruskin apparently strikes one of the two—a "skinny boy".

    Peter Fallow, a has-been, alcoholic journalist for the tabloid City Light, is soon given the opportunity of a lifetime when he is persuaded to write a series of articles about Henry Lamb, a black youth who has allegedly been the victim of a hit and run by a wealthy white driver. Fallow cynically tolerates the manipulations of the Reverend Bacon, a Harlem religious and political leader who sees the hospitalized boy as a projects success story done wrong. Fallow's series of articles on the matter ignites a series of protests and media coverage of the Lamb case.

    Up for re-election and accused of foot-dragging in the Lamb case, the media-obsessed Bronx District Attorney Abe Weiss pushes for McCoy's arrest. The evidence consists of McCoy's car, which matches the description of the vehicle involved in the alleged hit and run, plus McCoy's evasive response to police questioning. The arrest all but ruins McCoy; distraction at work causes him to flub on landing an investor for a $600 million bond, resulting in McCoy being forced to take a leave of absence from his job. Sherman's upper class friends ostracize him, and his wife leaves him and takes their daughter.

    Hoping to impress his boss as well as an attractive juror, Shelly Thomas, Assistant District Attorney Larry Kramer aggressively prosecutes the case, opening with an unsuccessful bid to set McCoy's bail at $250,000. Released on bail, McCoy is besieged by demonstrators who are protesting outside his $3 million Park Avenue co-op.

    Fallow hears a rumor that Ruskin was at the wheel of McCoy's car when it allegedly struck Lamb, but Ruskin has fled the country. Trying to smoke out the truth, on the pretense of interviewing the rich and famous, Fallow meets Ruskin's husband, Arthur, at a pricey French restaurant. While recounting his life, Arthur has a fatal seizure, as disturbed patrons and an annoyed maître d' look on. Ruskin is forced to return to the United States for his funeral, where McCoy confronts her about being "the only witness". Fallow, hoping also to talk with Ruskin, overhears this.

    Fallow's write-up of the association between McCoy and Ruskin prompts Assistant D.A. Kramer to offer Ruskin a deal: corroborate the other witness and receive immunity—or be treated as an accomplice. Ruskin recounts this to McCoy while he is wearing a wire. When a private investigator employed by McCoy's lawyer, Tommy Killian, discovers a recording of a conversation that contradicts Ruskin's grand jury testimony, the judge assigned to the case declares the testimony "tainted" and dismisses the case.

    As the epilogue, a fictional New York Times article informs us that Fallow has won the Pulitzer Prize and married the daughter of City Light owner Gerald Steiner, while Ruskin has escaped prosecution and remarried. McCoy's re-trial ends in a hung jury, split along racial lines. Kramer is removed from the prosecution after it is revealed he was involved with Shelly Thomas in a sexual tryst at the apartment formerly used by Ruskin and McCoy. It is additionally revealed that McCoy has lost a civil trial to the Lamb family and, pending appeal, has a $12 million liability, which has resulted in the freezing of his assets. The all-but-forgotten Henry Lamb succumbs to his injuries; McCoy, penniless and estranged from his wife and daughter, awaits trial for vehicular manslaughter. In the novel's closing, Tommy Killian holds forth:

    If this case was being tried in foro conscientiae [in the court of the conscience], the defendants would be Abe Weiss, Reginald Bacon, and Peter Fallow of The City Light.


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