George Zimmerman's Trial

Montroseee

Surprised that there is not a thread on this already. This case has completely captivated and divided opinions in the states, have a relative living in Florida who claims it's the most widely publicized trial since OJ's.

For people that are unaware, here is the wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

My Opinion: Today was a key day for the defence where the prosecutions main witness put a dire performance in today during cross - examination (Expect the footage of this to go viral, already getting lambasted on twitter). Two other witnesses testified that the shooting was in self defense and with Florida's stand your ground law, I'd expect Zimmerman to be acquitted.

TheFOB

Its blatantly self defence:


TM doubled back and ambushed GZ knocked him to the ground and repeatedly punched him in the face. It has been calculated that TM reached his house before deciding to turn back to confront GZ.

GZ can be heard screaming for help in 911 calls as he is being punched.

Manic Moran

Montroseee wrote: »

and with Florida's stand your ground law, I'd expect Zimmerman to be acquitted. .

Stand-your-ground has nothing to do with this case. In the interests of speed, the Defense waived even the preliminary processes for hearing it.
There have, unfortunately, been a lot of misleading pieces of information about the legal background behind SYG, and it has never been a factor in this case. It has only even become an issue because the mis-informed in the US (and usually the anti-gun crowd) have said it is. This is a claim of simple self defense.

GZ can be heard screaming for help in 911 calls as he is being punched.

Unproven.

The other two prosecution witnesses didn't help the prosecution's case either, both contradicting themselves and the physical evidence. Granted, Zimmerman and his side have not in any way helped their case with their actions and comments in the last year, but ultimately, it comes down to 'can the prosecution prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not in a reasonable fear for his safety and that the self-defence claim does not apply. I strongly suspect acquittal will result, and this will prove to be a farce of a political show trial put on to feed the baying mob.

NTM

mikemac1

Why do the media keep using the sweet innocent child photo and not a more recent one?

Surely you'd use the most recent photos around

gramar

mikemac1 wrote: »

Why do the media keep using the sweet innocent child photo and not a more recent one?

Surely you'd use the most recent photos around

Without knowing anything about the case or having never heard of GZ before I saw the thread title I'd say it's media opinion manipulation.

joe stodge

Because martin's most recent pictures show him flipping gang signs and generally not being so sweet and innocent.

derfderf

mikemac1 wrote: »

Why do the media keep using the sweet innocent child photo and not a more recent one?

Surely you'd use the most recent photos around

The angle the media were covering this story from was that Zimmerman had potentially shot the next Obama.

gallag

derfderf wrote: »

The angle the media were covering this story from was that Zimmerman had potentially shot the next Obama.

And he could have cured cancer, solved perpetual motion and advanced our knowledge of cold fusion, no gang activity though, no sir.

derfderf

gallag wrote: »

And he could have cured cancer, solved perpetual motion and advanced our knowledge of cold fusion, no gang activity though, no sir.

He was only goin to the shop to buy sweets and soda pop when he was shot (I actually read that somewhere)

skeg16

Opening the case with a knock knock joke....WTF

There was clearly some hidden agenda/racial aspect involved. Why would any1 follow an unarmed man around at night with a gun. Guns may or may not be legal in Florida (don't know) but this was a bit OTT....even if TM look suspicious.
Self defense is a big statement especially when a man is dead, why couldn't he just shoot him in the leg or something??

Montroseee

skeg16 wrote: »

Opening the case with a knock knock joke....WTF

There was clearly some hidden agenda/racial aspect involved. Why would any1 follow an unarmed man around at night with a gun. Guns may or may not be legal in Florida (don't know) but this was a bit OTT....even if TM look suspicious.
Self defense is a big statement especially when a man is dead, why couldn't he just shoot him in the leg or something??

I think Zimmerman himself and other residents had been the victims of crime numerous times leading up to the shooting.

darced

This post has been deleted.

daRobot

He was framed

Arpa

yeah but his music for the Batman and new Superman movie was great so give him a break.

chris_ie

Must read more on this but what I heard Zimmerman followed TM because he was suspicious of him. He rang 911 told them he was following him, they told him to stop following him and back off but he ignored this. Then something about him catching up with him getting into a scuffle and shooting him. Doesnt sound great for his defence!

Einhard

If Zimmerman was black and the kid white, there'd be an awful lot less people rushing to Zimmerman's defence.

Hande hoche!

Would be surprised if he doesn't get jail time. The widespread use of Zimmerman's jail photo was also an interesting choice.

derfderf

Einhard wrote: »

If Zimmerman was black and the kid white, there'd be an awful lot less people rushing to Zimmerman's defence.

If Martin was white nobody would be suggesting it was a hate crime, and the president wouldn't be saying "if i had a son he would look like Treyvon Martin", if the president was white of course.

Nobody would have even heard of this case if the Martin was white, and the media wouldn't be acting like Godfrey Jones' Rock Bottom in the Simpsons.

Chucky the tree

If someone is on top of me hitting my head off the concrete ground and also punching me in the face you can be damn sure I am going to shoot him so he doesn't kill me. It's a clear case of self-defence, comical he has even been brought to court.

chris_ie

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If someone is on top of me hitting my head off the concrete ground and also punching me in the face you can be damn sure I am going to shoot him so he doesn't kill me. It's a clear case of self-defence, comical he has even been brought to court.

But it wasn't as if the TM went and started beating the crap out of him. GZ followed him around, called the cops who told him not to follow him but he kept on doing so. Its a strange case but I dont think its a clear case of self defence given the fact that he went after TM.

premierstone

chris_ie wrote: »

But it wasn't as if the TM went and started beating the crap out of him. GZ followed him around, called the cops who told him not to follow him but he kept on doing so. Its a strange case but I dont think its a clear case of self defence given the fact that he went after TM.

Exactly and Zimmerman had form for this aswell he had rung 911 over 40 times in the three months prior to this and he was/is one paranoid fcuked up guy. Of course the victim was no angel either but I definitly think Zimmerman has a case to answer and am suprosed by those dismissing it as a straight forward case of self defense.

Grand Moff Tarkin

premierstone wrote: »

Exactly and Zimmerman had form for this aswell he had rung 911 over 40 times in the three months prior to this and he was/is one paranoid fcuked up guy. Of course the victim was no angel either but I definitly think Zimmerman has a case to answer and am suprosed by those dismissing it as a straight forward case of self defense.

That should have nothing whatsoever to do with the night in question when he(Zimmerman) was defending himself against this young hoodlum.

BQQ

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If someone is on top of me hitting my head off the concrete ground and also punching me in the face you can be damn sure I am going to shoot him so he doesn't kill me. It's a clear case of self-defence, comical he has even been brought to court.

If someone is following me around with a gun you can be damn sure I am going to hit his head off the concrete ground and punch him in the face so he doesn't kill me. :cool:

chris_ie

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

That should have nothing whatsoever to do with the night in question when he(Zimmerman) was defending himself against this young hoodlum.

Defending himself by going after him and causing an altercation?

hatrickpatrick

Zimmerman should have stayed the f*ck out of it. TM was an unarmed man doing absolutely nothing wrong - Zimmerman's actions were either racial profiling or age profiling and either way I have absolutely no sympathy for him or anyone like him. Mind your own business and don't hassle people because "you don't like the look of them".

Manic Moran

skeg16 wrote: »

Opening the case with a knock knock joke....WTF

I know what he was trying to do, though. The case has received so much publicity in the US that it is unlikely that the jurors don't have some measure of pre-conception of the situation. The joke was a way of reminding them that they're not supposed to have any.

There was clearly some hidden agenda/racial aspect involved. Why would any1 follow an unarmed man around at night with a gun. Guns may or may not be legal in Florida (don't know) but this was a bit OTT

You kidding? The State is even shaped like a pistol. There are currently over one million active concealed weapons permits in the state, population 19 million.

Self defense is a big statement especially when a man is dead, why couldn't he just shoot him in the leg or something??

How would that be possible in a physical fight?

He rang 911 told them he was following him, they told him to stop following him and back off but he ignored this. Then something about him catching up with him getting into a scuffle and shooting him. Doesnt sound great for his defence!

It is argued that Zimmerman did not actually catch up to Martin, but that Martin took exception to being followed by Zimmerman and reversed course to state his objection. 911 offers advice, they are not force of law, and Zimmerman, even by continuing to follow, did not do anything illegal in doing so. It may or may not have been a poor judgement call, but that's different from attaching liability.

Exactly and Zimmerman had form for this aswell he had rung 911 over 40 times in the three months prior to this and he was/is one paranoid fcuked up guy

He was the neighbourhood watch lead. The point of NW is that they see things, and call the police.

Its a strange case but I dont think its a clear case of self defence given the fact that he went after TM

Again, this is argued. Followed, yes. But why would he have willingly closed the distance to an unknown suspicious individual who may be armed just to get into a physical conflict? The point of a firearm is it allows you to keep your distance, getting into fisticuffs range with a threat without producing it is a fairly unlikely course of action.

If someone is following me around with a gun you can be damn sure I am going to hit his head off the concrete ground and punch him in the face so he doesn't kill me.

There is no evidence that Martin knew Zimmerman was armed at the time. (And, frankly, would you really charge a guy you -knew- to be armed?)

NTM

Montroseee

http://www.wptv.com/generic/news/national/George-Zimmerman-trial-complete-coverage - link for the live stream, scarlet for this witness.

jhegarty

joe stodge wrote: »

Because martin's most recent pictures show him flipping gang signs and generally not being so sweet and innocent.

Didn't that photo turn out to be another person with the same name ?

A Primal Nut

derfderf wrote: »

He was only goin to the shop to buy sweets and soda pop when he was shot (I actually read that somewhere)

Eh, that's what he was doing...he was found with a packet of skittles and a can.
It was definitely Zimmerman who caused the problem at first by following Trayvon. Unless you believe Zimmerman's defence that Trayvon started circling his car.

El Guapo!

Montroseee wrote: »

http://www.wptv.com/generic/news/national/George-Zimmerman-trial-complete-coverage - link for the live stream, scarlet for this witness.

That witness is a simpleton.

Manic Moran

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Unless you believe Zimmerman's defence that Trayvon started circling his car.

I have never heard this claimed before. Link?

BattleCorp

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Zimmerman should have stayed the f*ck out of it. TM was an unarmed man doing absolutely nothing wrong - Zimmerman's actions were either racial profiling or age profiling and either way Mind your own business and don't hassle people because "you don't like the look of them".

How do you know that? Did you witness the incident? Were you there? It could be a case of self defence, we just don't know yet. That's what this trial will try and find out. I'm not saying it is or isn't, simply because I don't have all the facts.

What might prejudice this trial is the racist political interferance that seems to be happening.

If Zimmerman is guilty, fair enough, throw the book at him. But you can't be saying Trayvon Martin was 100% innocent and Zimmerman was 100% guilty until all the facts come out in court.

I don't agree with your "mind your own business" aspect either. Have you ever heard of Neighbourhood Watch over here in Ireland. Pretty much the same principle. Maybe he overstepped the mark, but we'll have to wait and see if the court agrees.

I have absolutely no sympathy for him or anyone like him

You've prejudged him already so. No trial needed, stick him on death row.

Corkfeen

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

That should have nothing whatsoever to do with the night in question when he(Zimmerman) was defending himself against this young hoodlum.

The court ruled that they do matter to the case. It establishes his mindset and particularly the fact that he mainly seemed to report black people.......

c_man

Einhard wrote: »

If Zimmerman was black and the kid white, there'd be an awful lot less people rushing to Zimmerman's defence.

Isn't Zimmerman hispanic?

A Primal Nut

Manic Moran wrote: »

I have never heard this claimed before. Link?

Actually it was something the prosecution claimed did not happen, and in the context of the article made it seem they are responding to something the defence suggested, which is what I assumed; afterall why else would he say Trayvon didn't do it?

Reading again, it's possible he was just being dramatic. Guess we'll find out for sure the defence's during Zimmerman's testimony.



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/us/zimmerman-trial.html?_r=0

Mr. Martin, he said, did not punch Mr. Zimmerman after the defendant hung up with the dispatch officer, did not circle Mr. Zimmerman’s car, did not reach for Mr. Zimmerman’s gun and did not cover Mr. Zimmerman’s nose and mouth with his hand. Mr. Martin’s hands had no bruises or blood, he said. In fact, none of Mr. Zimmerman’s DNA was found on Mr. Martin, Mr. Guy said.

A Primal Nut

c_man wrote: »

Isn't Zimmerman hispanic?

Hispanics are still white; just with a bit of tan.

Zimmerman does have an hispanic face; and defintely white.

Eramen

So I was thinking. How can Zimmerman ever have a fair trial, given that if he is acquitted there is a strong chance of black riots of the likes of the L.A. riots?

Anyone involved in the trial will have this sword hanging over their heads and may help them of their way to making their decision 'accordingly'. Certainly it's a factor.

joe stodge

jhegarty wrote: »

Didn't that photo turn out to be another person with the same name ?

There are others, flashing wads of cash and showing off his grill. His twitter page was full of it aswell. 2 school suspensions, 1 for drug possession and the other for "burglary tools" and possession of over a dozen pieces of women's jewelry.

hatrickpatrick

BattleCorp wrote: »

How do you know that? Did you witness the incident? Were you there? It could be a case of self defence, we just don't know yet. That's what this trial will try and find out. I'm not saying it is or isn't, simply because I don't have all the facts.

What might prejudice this trial is the racist political interferance that seems to be happening.

If Zimmerman is guilty, fair enough, throw the book at him. But you can't be saying Trayvon Martin was 100% innocent and Zimmerman was 100% guilty until all the facts come out in court.

I don't agree with your "mind your own business" aspect either. Have you ever heard of Neighbourhood Watch over here in Ireland. Pretty much the same principle. Maybe he overstepped the mark, but we'll have to wait and see if the court agrees.



You've prejudged him already so. No trial needed, stick him on death row.

Zimmerman reported that Martin was "acting suspiciously". That is not in my view a valid reason for accosting someone. Call the police if you must.

Zimmerman stated, "We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy." He described an unknown male "just walking around looking about" in the rain and said, "This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something."

He saw Martin, drew a conclusion based on gigantic and unreasonable leaps of logic, and decided to confront him. If someone did that to me for no reason I'd probably deck them - if you have no reasonable grounds to suspect me of having actually committed a crime, piss off.

Tipsy McSwagger

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Hispanics are still white; just with a bit of tan.

Zimmerman does have an hispanic face; and defintely white.

What a stupid comment.

MOC88

derfderf wrote: »

If Martin was white nobody would be suggesting it was a hate crime, and the president wouldn't be saying "if i had a son he would look like Treyvon Martin", if the president was white of course.

Nobody would have even heard of this case if the Martin was white, and the media wouldn't be acting like Godfrey Jones' Rock Bottom in the Simpsons.

If Obama had a white wife it would be likely his children would look more white than black (Obama has a white mother and black father) although witht he way he was eyeing up the Chinese one when he was over there . He's just trying to keep his core vote without alienating anyone.... to those who beleive Martin's is innocent he's seen as supporting it and to almost everyone else it doesn't really come up on the radar. And to not comment on the whole thing would've resulted in a drop in ratings.

More importantly, in a community where 20% of people are black how could he be racist? Racism rarely lasts when there is daily interaction.... Never mind the fact he would have been chasing every black teenager he saw.

I've no idea whether he's guilty but I'm definitely interested in how this turns out!

woodoo

chris_ie wrote: »

But it wasn't as if the TM went and started beating the crap out of him. GZ followed him around, called the cops who told him not to follow him but he kept on doing so. Its a strange case but I dont think its a clear case of self defence given the fact that he went after TM.

Just because you follow someone doesn't mean you should get your head pounded off the concrete. At that stage ZM was entitled to defend himself.

A Primal Nut

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

What a stupid comment.

He has as much German ancestry as he has Hispanic ancestry.

gurramok

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

He saw Martin, drew a conclusion based on gigantic and unreasonable leaps of logic, and decided to confront him. If someone did that to me for no reason I'd probably deck them - if you have no reasonable grounds to suspect me of having actually committed a crime, piss off.

GZ was protecting a gated community AFAIK, he had reason to confront any trespassers even though TM was a visitor who he did not recognise.

Just like you or I wandering into a Business Park, security there will confront you as to what you're doing there. Unless you flash a work badge, you'll be escorted out!

Manic Moran

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

He saw Martin, drew a conclusion based on gigantic and unreasonable leaps of logic, and decided to confront him. If someone did that to me for no reason I'd probably deck them - if you have no reasonable grounds to suspect me of having actually committed a crime, piss off.

It has not been shown that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Even if he did, it does not follow that he started the physical confrontation. (The one is presumptively legal, the other is not). And even if he did that (which is unlikely given the situation), he could still have the defense that he had no choice given the way things were turning out. (Under Florida law, even the instigator of a violent confrontation can still claim self defense as a last recourse if, after he declared a wish to cease fighting, he was still in reasonable fear of his safety)

Montroseee

A quick search on twitter will show there are thousands of black people around the states threatening to riot and loot if Zimmerman walks.

hatrickpatrick

gurramok wrote: »

GZ was protecting a gated community AFAIK, he had reason to confront any trespassers even though TM was a visitor who he did not recognise.

Just like you or I wandering into a Business Park, security there will confront you as to what you're doing there. Unless you flash a work badge, you'll be escorted out!

Ridiculous analogy in my view. You don't have to provide ID when you're visiting friends or relatives. Zimmerman was not a cop, he didn't have the authority to bother anyone IMO - he sounds to me like a typical busybody vigilante, and I absolutely despise the "I don't like the look of someone" type of person. Unless he saw Martin actively doing something wrong he shouldn't have gone anywhere near him.

Manic Moran wrote: »

It has not been shown that Zimmerman confronted Martin. Even if he did, it does not follow that he started the physical confrontation. (The one is presumptively legal, the other is not). And even if he did that (which is unlikely given the situation), he could still have the defense that he had no choice given the way things were turning out. (Under Florida law, even the instigator of a violent confrontation can still claim self defense as a last recourse if, after he declared a wish to cease fighting, he was still in reasonable fear of his safety)

I'm not saying he has no legal defense, I'm just saying in my opinion if he decided to hassle Martin for absolutely no legitimate reason and he got a slap, I have no sympathy.

I get that most people here don't agree with me I'm just stating an opinion. Zimmerman wasn't a cop, he had no authority to ask anyone what they were doing and if he decided to stalk Martin and hassle him, I wouldn't judge Martin for getting pissed. I know I would. If someone did that to me when I was visiting my gran who lived in a similar style gated community I'd tell them to f*ck off and mind their own business.

joe stodge

Montroseee wrote: »

A quick search on twitter will show there are thousands of black people around the states threatening to riot and loot if Zimmerman walks.

Dopes.

gurramok

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ridiculous analogy in my view. You don't have to provide ID when you're visiting friends or relatives. Zimmerman was not a cop, he didn't have the authority to bother anyone IMO - he sounds to me like a typical busybody vigilante, and I absolutely despise the "I don't like the look of someone" type of person. Unless he saw Martin actively doing something wrong he shouldn't have gone anywhere near him.

Tonight you walk into one of the many security patrolled business parks around Dublin(or any city\town) and tell us how you get on.

I can tell you what will happen in advance. You will be stopped by gunfree security asking what your business is and you will say either "feck off, mind your own business" or just ignore them and walk on. Either way cops will be called when you resist and you will be either arrested or escorted off the site.

Same for a security patrolled neighbourhood(don't think we have them here), either you comply as to what your business is or you are out for trouble.

woodoo

Montroseee wrote: »

A quick search on twitter will show there are thousands of black people around the states threatening to riot and loot if Zimmerman walks.

ima-kill-me-a-cracka


http://twitchy.com/2013/06/27/ima-kill-me-a-cracka-death-threats-against-george-zimmerman-random-white-people-explode-during-trial/

Grand Moff Tarkin

Corkfeen wrote: »

The court ruled that they do matter to the case. It establishes his mindset and particularly the fact that he mainly seemed to report black people.......

Black lads along with Hispanic and Cuban lads would be the main people involved in crime in that part of America.