A right wing party

digzy · 22-06-2013 6:45pm #1

Hi Lads,

Just reading some of the various threads here there seems a fair proportion of the posters who're fed up with successive government's inability to tackle public spending especially in relation to welfare and public sector pay.

There's a number of left of centre and more radical left wing groups. However, bar fine gael, who're supposedly a right of centre party, there appears to be a 'vacaum' of political options to the right. Indeed i'd challenge anyone to point out significant differences between them and fianna fail!

So, to my question. any theories on why we dont have a viable 'conservative' 'right wing' party

(I'm not referring to a nazi type party. just one to offer a reasonable alternative)

boundlessSea · 22-06-2013 8:58pm

I think there is probably not many votes free to be taken on the right with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail dominating the Irish political landscape. They might not be conservative enough for a minority, but this minority would probably be too small to sustain a party large enough to achieve real change in Ireland.

All of the groups left of Labour are protest groups with no relevance, it would be pointless to setup right wing group of similar nature, maybe people on the left are more into protest or idealist politics than people on the right who would not go into politics without the expectation of eventually getting power.

COYW · 24-06-2013 3:18pm

boundlessSea wrote: »

I think there is probably not many votes free to be taken on the right with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail dominating the Irish political landscape. They might not be conservative enough for a minority, but this minority would probably be too small to sustain a party large enough to achieve real change in Ireland.

All of the groups left of Labour are protest groups with no relevance, it would be pointless to setup right wing group of similar nature, maybe people on the left are more into protest or idealist politics than people on the right who would not go into politics without the expectation of eventually getting power.

Firstly, as someone who is economically to the right, I would like to add that FF are most definitely not to the right and never have been. FG are centre-right but nothing more. If we had a truly right wing party in government during the Celtic tiger or even now, we would not be in the mess we are in.

Anyway, as you stated correctly, a right wing party would only enter politics if there was a distinct possibility of power. The hard lefties, people before profit, SF etc are happy to live in their idealistic world, work the protest circuit hard and cost the taxpayers €90,000 plus expenses with no real possibility of power. A stint in power would be a disaster from them, as it would mean that they would have to face reality; Labour is a classic example of this.

Francie Barrett · 24-06-2013 3:19pm

It's called Fine Gael, and yes, we are doing a good job keeping Labour in check.

Gloomtastic! · 24-06-2013 3:25pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

It's called Fine Gael, and yes, we are doing a good job keeping Labour in check.

Tell that to Jack O'Connor. Laughing all the way to the bank, at 'our' expense of course.

Francie Barrett · 24-06-2013 3:30pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Tell that to Jack O'Connor. Laughing all the way to the bank, at 'our' expense of course.

If we had been given a majority, we would have been able to deal much more effectively with the unions. As it stands, we didn't get the mandate, so we're doing what we can (with a decent degree of success).

Manach · 24-06-2013 3:32pm

I'd presume right-wing would seem both socially and economically conservative - akin to the current US Republicans or the previous generation of the UK Conservatives?

Gloomtastic! · 24-06-2013 3:46pm

Francie Barrett wrote: »

we're doing what we can (with a decent degree of success).

Success for who? Success for all those politicians and civil servants who have retired on gold-plated pensions that are a multiple of what other countries pay. Lots of talk, of course, but no action.
Success for all the TDs that were re-elected at the last election, you managed to hold on to your gold-plated pensions as well, unlike new TDs.
Success for all in the Dail who managed to get away with a 3% reduction in expenditure over three years - 1% a year.
Yes, you've been very successful looking after yourselves, as always.

StillWaters · 25-06-2013 10:33pm

COYW wrote: »

If we had a truly right wing party in government during the Celtic tiger or even now, we would not be in the mess we are in.

Eh.... Progressive Democrats

COYW · 25-06-2013 11:04pm

StillWaters wrote: »

Eh.... Progressive Democrats

Erm, a tiny part of a FF government which blindly pumped into our economic black holes, health etc. Not my idea of right wing.

RichardAnd · 26-06-2013 6:26am

I'll just throw something into the mix here.

The words 'Conservative' and 'right wing' are not synonymous and certainly, they do not go hand in hand. Though many who would consider themselves to be conservative also espouse typically right wing views, this is not a rule as I have encountered a huge number of liberally minded people who are extremely right wing.

Liberals like people to be responsible for themselves and as such, things like welfare, pensions and publicly provided services are not something that philosophy approves of. In fact, welfare is often like kryptonite to some liberals.

On the other hand, conservatives tend to approve of a powerful state that overlooks the lives of its citizens. To that end, the idea of welfare and an abundance of public services is something many conservatives would believe in.

Anyway, all of the above is just an exercise in political science. In truth, there are no real liberal or conservatives because very few people do anything out of belief. In the majority of cases, people will support any ideal from which they stand to gain. In other words, the only real "ism" is mé-féin-ism.

mikom · 26-06-2013 10:02am

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Exactly, a few hardcore lefties getting together outside Leinster House won't accomplish anything.

Anyway, this will all have blown over in a week or two.

I wonder where this posters allegiances lie?

Francie Barrett wrote: »

It's called Fine Gael, and yes, we are doing a good job keeping Labour in check.

Oh, right.........

The Corinthian · 26-06-2013 1:04pm

digzy wrote: »

So, to my question. any theories on why we dont have a viable 'conservative' 'right wing' party

We don't really do the whole left versus right wing thing in Ireland. Instead, we've been doing Guelphs versus Ghibellines politics since we got independence.

Colonel Sanders · 26-06-2013 9:15pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

We don't really do the whole left versus right wing thing in Ireland

Nope, huge race to the centre

Populism wins votes in Ireland

rumour · 26-06-2013 9:41pm

digzy wrote: »

Hi Lads,

Just reading some of the various threads here there seems a fair proportion of the posters who're fed up with successive government's inability to tackle public spending especially in relation to welfare and public sector pay.

There's a number of left of centre and more radical left wing groups. However, bar fine gael, who're supposedly a right of centre party, there appears to be a 'vacaum' of political options to the right. Indeed i'd challenge anyone to point out significant differences between them and fianna fail!

So, to my question. any theories on why we dont have a viable 'conservative' 'right wing' party

(I'm not referring to a nazi type party. just one to offer a reasonable alternative)

Are yo checking out opinions on a state salary from one of our institutionally recognized parties?

Seriously your OP really appears that way.

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 9:43am

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Nope, huge race to the centre

Populism wins votes in Ireland

The centre wins in nearly all elections - both the left and the right in other countries have to appeal to the centre to win. When they forget that, they lose.

As to why we don't have a right-wing party, the answer is most probably that while there are a number of votes available for such a party, they're not concentrated in any constituency, and don't seem to be a big vote overall either. For the last decade I've watched right wing people claim to be "the silent majority", but all the evidence says that they're actually a vocal minority.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Corinthian · 27-06-2013 10:14am

Scofflaw wrote: »

The centre wins in nearly all elections - both the left and the right in other countries have to appeal to the centre to win. When they forget that, they lose.

Left and right wing politics was largely a twentieth century phenomenon. Right wing parties lost credibility with the collapse of Fascism after World War II and left wing parties lost credibility with the fall of Communism 45 years later. There's an expression, possibly a quote, I remember; "one night in 1943, Italy went to bed Fascist and woke up, the next morning, Christian Democrat" - a lot of hard-line socialists and communists did much the same, around the World, in the early nineties, waking up social democrats instead.

However, in-between 1945 and 1992, you still saw in most Western European countries very distinct ideological differences between centre-right Christian Democrats and left-wing socialist or communist parties, many of whom looked to Moscow for inspiration. When the USSR finally collapsed, many of them 'reformed' and moved to the centre, adopting a softer social democratic position, eventually going as far as New Labour did - becoming Thatcherism Lite - a far cry from Michael Foot's Labour party a decade earlier.

Ireland though was different. It historically never really took to the far left or right all that much - you never saw serious political parties with hammers and sickles running for election in the seventies and eighties, instead the ideological battle revolved more around conservative Catholic tradition versus a liberal cosmopolitan (i.e. foreign) one. This is why Irish politics always struck me as being more closely related to the late-medieval politics of Guelphs and Ghibellines.

As a result, both 'hard' right and left parties are out of fashion in most of Europe and here they were never in fashion, typically getting a tiny percentage of the vote, except for times of crisis (which we're getting at present - hence Jobbik in Hungary, Movimento 5 Stelle in Italy and Golden Dawn and SYRIZA in Greece).

That one is even asking why we don't have a 'right' wing party is probably related to the ongoing economic crisis in Ireland - otherwise we probably wouldn't even care.

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2013 10:51am

Scofflaw wrote: »

The centre wins in nearly all elections - both the left and the right in other countries have to appeal to the centre to win. When they forget that, they lose.

As to why we don't have a right-wing party, the answer is most probably that while there are a number of votes available for such a party, they're not concentrated in any constituency, and don't seem to be a big vote overall either. For the last decade I've watched right wing people claim to be "the silent majority", but all the evidence says that they're actually a vocal minority.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I am one of those 'vocal minorities' you speak of. Why am I in the minority when I believe that a country that is being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies, is a country going nowhere - especially one that is bankrupt?

Can the majority not see that? Why not? Are they so stupid to believe 'ah shure it'll be grand'? They're wrong 100%!!!

Yesterday's OECD figures showing Irish secondary teachers working 700-odd hours a year v the European average of 1300. Teachers that are the third highest paid in the OECD, working nearly half of what their colleagues in countries that are not bankrupt. Can the majority not see what's wrong here?

It's wrong, so bloody wrong and it makes me so bloody angry!!!

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 11:03am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I am one of those vocal minorities you s

Well done you - by the way, I can't think of many nice words there beginning with "s", is that deliberate?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2013 11:04am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well done you - by the way, I can't think of many nice words there beginning with "s", is that deliberate?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Let's try that again shall we! (Bloody big thumbs and little keyboards)

The Corinthian · 27-06-2013 11:11am

Scofflaw wrote: »

I can't think of many nice words there beginning with "s"

Sweetie? Sugarpumb? Schatzi?

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 11:18am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I am one of those 'vocal minorities' you speak of. Why am I in the minority when I believe that a country that is being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies, is a country going nowhere - especially one that is bankrupt?

Can the majority not see that? Why not? Are they so stupid to believe 'ah shure it'll be grand'? They're wrong 100%!!!

Yesterday's OECD figures showing Irish secondary teachers working 700-odd hours a year v the European average of 1300. Teachers that are the third highest paid in the OECD, working nearly half of what their colleagues in countries that are not bankrupt. Can the majority not see what's wrong here?

It's wrong, so bloody wrong and it makes me so bloody angry!!!

The thing is, I suppose, that while a good number of people probably agree to a greater or lesser extent that the country is "being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies", they are almost invariably thinking of the "unelected trade unionists and representative bodies" who don't represent them.

In a sense, that sounds awful - and one can certainly get worked up on the basis of "people looking out for their self-interests and failing to see the bigger picture" - but, vitally, the point is that those "unelected trade unionists and representative bodies" actually do between them represent a large proportion of the electorate, at least as far as I can see.

There are people who are left out of the whole corporatist arrangements of the Irish State, but that's always gong to be the case - and some who are left out don't care, while others consist of multiple small disparate groups who are simply too small to make a difference. If they become large enough to be meaningful, the corporatist structure will find room for them.

So, there's a possible analysis - people may bitch about the other bodies representing particular interests, but only because they're competing with the body representing their interests, while overall, a sufficiently broad representation is achieved to maintain political stability and prevent the growth of more agenda-driven political parties.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 11:19am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sweetie? Sugarpumb? Schatzi?

They're endearments, certainly, but I wouldn't consider them nice. Anyway, all happily resolved now!

cordially,
Scofflaw

murphaph · 27-06-2013 11:20am

Manach wrote: »

I'd presume right-wing would seem both socially and economically conservative - akin to the current US Republicans or the previous generation of the UK Conservatives?

Wouldn't have to be. The FDP in Germany is economically conservative and socially liberal.

We had the PD's though, who would have been close to the FDP (in theory) but once they "got in" with FF they seemed to throw economic conservatism out the window and were happy enough to buy elections with Bertie and his giveaway manifestos.

If the PD's had remained true to their principles, I would vote for them. They might even still exist!

I'm not allowed to vote in German elections (apart from local elections) but I'd vote FDP if I could.

Plastic Sheeting · 27-06-2013 11:37am

The op is spot on. The countries a socialist paradise. The government gives handouts left right and centre. It's as though it's a right of passage to be on welfare these days. Welfare has poisoned Irish society and should be severely cut back.

Immigration should also be tackled. what business has an immigrant on welfare being here when his sole incentive to be in the country is to work?

There's been a bunch of incompetents running the country for the last couple of years and the anglo tapes are a good example of this.

The place is a mess.

And why have we a 10,000 strong army when there only duty is to escort Securicor vans around the country? They should be put to work and made use of in NATO.

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2013 11:54am

Scofflaw wrote: »

The thing is, I suppose, that while a good number of people probably agree to a greater or lesser extent that the country is "being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies", they are almost invariably thinking of the "unelected trade unionists and representative bodies" who don't represent them.

In a sense, that sounds awful - and one can certainly get worked up on the basis of "people looking out for their self-interests and failing to see the bigger picture" - but, vitally, the point is that those "unelected trade unionists and representative bodies" actually do between them represent a large proportion of the electorate, at least as far as I can see.

There are people who are left out of the whole corporatist arrangements of the Irish State, but that's always gong to be the case - and some who are left out don't care, while others consist of multiple small disparate groups who are simply too small to make a difference. If they become large enough to be meaningful, the corporatist structure will find room for them.

So, there's a possible analysis - people may bitch about the other bodies representing particular interests, but only because they're competing with the body representing their interests, while overall, a sufficiently broad representation is achieved to maintain political stability and prevent the growth of more agenda-driven political parties.

cordially,
Scofflaw

580,000 trade union members out of a total 2,500,000 voting population. Why is a fifth allowed to dictate terms to the real majority?

I believe that the way the country is now, the real majority need to be shown the facts - like the teachers above - in black and white and repeated to them over and over again - just like they do in primary school!!!

Am I wrong?

Edit: forgot about the unemployed - 400,000. The pensioners - 600,000. Christ that's the majority of self-interested people!!! The country's ****ed! That's for sure!!!

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 12:02pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

580,000 trade union members out of a total 2,500,000 voting population. Why is a fifth allowed to dictate terms to the real majority?

I believe that the way the country is now, the real majority need to be shown the facts - like the teachers above - in black and white and repeated to them over and over again - just like they do in primary school!!!

Am I wrong?

580,000 trade union members out of a voting population of 2.5m - how many family members is that? How many halves of households? And what proportion of trade union members vote as against the proportion of the general public that vote?

Plus, that leaves out other representative bodies. Have a look at the full list of "social partners" at the bottom of this page, and see what you reckon the coverage of the population - in particular the politically concerned population - that gives.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2013 12:29pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

580,000 trade union members out of a voting population of 2.5m - how many family members is that? How many halves of households? And what proportion of trade union members vote as against the proportion of the general public that vote?

Plus, that leaves out other representative bodies. Have a look at the full list of "social partners" at the bottom of this page, and see what you reckon the coverage of the population - in particular the politically concerned population - that gives.

cordially,
Scofflaw

That's a long list! Whoever came up with Social Partnership (Bertie?) was looking to include everyone it seems - a real vote winner but probably the beginning of the end for this country.
As Dermot Desmond likes to quote 'The majority is never right'. He's not wrong......

Scofflaw · 27-06-2013 1:44pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

That's a long list! Whoever came up with Social Partnership (Bertie?) was looking to include everyone it seems - a real vote winner but probably the beginning of the end for this country.
As Dermot Desmond likes to quote 'The majority is never right'. He's not wrong......

The problem, though, is that in terms of "right governance" in a democratic country, the majority is right (barring legal protections for the rights of minorities etc).

The social partnership in this country doesn't cover everyone, but it probably does cover the greater majority, whereas the elected government actually rather better represents a plurality. That's a major reason for the system's ability to resist alternative politics.

cordially,
Scofflaw

laoch na mona · 28-06-2013 11:42am

why would anyone want a new right wing party FG are bad enough

Gloomtastic! · 28-06-2013 12:46pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

why would anyone want a new right wing party FG are bad enough

Because someone has to try and stop this country spending money that we're having to borrow. We can't afford to have some the highest paid unemployed, PS, politicians or pensioners anywhere in the developed world.
FG are a bunch of spineless do nothings. They had the mandate to so something to help sort the country out when they were first elected but bottled it.

The Corinthian · 28-06-2013 1:18pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Because someone has to try and stop this country spending money that we're having to borrow. We can't afford to have some the highest paid unemployed, PS, politicians or pensioners anywhere in the developed world.

You're panicking.

By that I mean that you correctly note that current policies and political options are either not working or at least working very, very slowly, so out of a sense of panic and desperation you desire radical action to be taken to tackle what you see as the immediate problems in society.

Problem with that is that radical solutions always have consequences, often worse that the problems they seek to solve. Prohibition in the US was a radical, populist, solution to the problem of alcoholism, yet had to be abandoned a decade later because the problems it engendered far outstripped any benefits it brought. Fascism and communism both restored law and order and got people back to work, but also resulted in loss of freedom and other devastating consequences too.

I think you've not thought this through; certainly a 'right-wing' party could address the issues you've raised, but then what? What happens in the longer term? You appear to have placed zero thought in how it all plays out and are focusing on some desperate need to do something now and worry about the consequences later.

laoch na mona · 28-06-2013 2:33pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Because someone has to try and stop this country spending money that we're having to borrow. We can't afford to have some the highest paid unemployed, PS, politicians or pensioners anywhere in the developed world.
FG are a bunch of spineless do nothings. They had the mandate to so something to help sort the country out when they were first elected but bottled it.

ya don't go after those responsible or anything crazy like that

Gloomtastic! · 28-06-2013 8:44pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You're panicking.

By that I mean that you correctly note that current policies and political options are either not working or at least working very, very slowly, so out of a sense of panic and desperation you desire radical action to be taken to tackle what you see as the immediate problems in society.

Problem with that is that radical solutions always have consequences, often worse that the problems they seek to solve. Prohibition in the US was a radical, populist, solution to the problem of alcoholism, yet had to be abandoned a decade later because the problems it engendered far outstripped any benefits it brought. Fascism and communism both restored law and order and got people back to work, but also resulted in loss of freedom and other devastating consequences too.

I think you've not thought this through; certainly a 'right-wing' party could address the issues you've raised, but then what? What happens in the longer term? You appear to have placed zero thought in how it all plays out and are focusing on some desperate need to do something now and worry about the consequences later.

I can't believe a Mod from the business forum is chiding me for wanting to cut costs when income doesn't match expenditure!

Five years into this crisis and you think I'm panicking! What are you waiting for before the penny finally drops that we can't repay our debts?

What is radical about not spending what you don't have? It's just basic common sense not an 'ism'.

People managed fine before Bertie bribed everyone with all the additional little bonuses and allowances he gave to the unions and pensioners.

Example: Why do we have the most generous fuel allowance of any country in Europe? Are we the coldest country? No we're not by a long shot.

Four/five years of a right wing government, then let the old favourites back in. They might return some of the cuts but they won't all of them.

Gergiev · 28-06-2013 10:32pm

Don't overlook Declan Ganley's current manoeuvrings.

I was down at his inaugural 'rally' a few weeks ago and the place was packed to the rafters, somewhere between 600 and 800 ppl, I reckon.

Shaping up as socially conservative and economically liberal although the speeches were necessarily broadbrush for an initial gathering and not issue or ideology specific, with the exception of being strongly anti-abortion.

My guess is it could be the beginning of a Christian Democratic party in Ireland as Fine Gael are generally speaking just a load of people who were born into FG families or background with no particular definition of why they are in politics

Irish people or parties for the main part don't 'do' ideology but the lack of a philosophical basis for our politics (as opposed to ideology) is hurting us hard, as we're invariably presented with ideas copied from other societies, sometimes with very little relevance to our own circumstances, and sometimes just as these policies are about to come unstuck elsewhere...

Will be interesting to see how the Ganley project plays out...

Permabear · 29-06-2013 6:17am

This post has been deleted.

themusicman · 29-06-2013 7:00am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I am one of those 'vocal minorities' you speak of. Why am I in the minority when I believe that a country that is being held to ransom by unelected trade unionists and representative bodies, is a country going nowhere - especially one that is bankrupt?

Can the majority not see that? Why not? Are they so stupid to believe 'ah shure it'll be grand'? They're wrong 100%!!!

Yesterday's OECD figures showing Irish secondary teachers working 700-odd hours a year v the European average of 1300. Teachers that are the third highest paid in the OECD, working nearly half of what their colleagues in countries that are not bankrupt. Can the majority not see what's wrong here?

It's wrong, so bloody wrong and it makes me so bloody angry!!!

Can you link that figure about Irish secondary teachers hours v European average please.....Because I can't find them as you have indicated in Education at a Glance 2013 which I presume is the OECD report you are referring to.

Facts are important.....especially when discussing the real influences on our situation as opposed to the points of view that often get bandied about and shape people's opinions and then, sometimes years later are discovered to be false

The Corinthian · 29-06-2013 8:20am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Don't be ridiculous. I'm not chiding you for wanting to cut superfluous costs, I'm not suggesting that much of the pay and conditions in the social welfare system, civil service or elsewhere point to a broken system. I completely agree with you on most of that.

I'm criticizing your belief that turning to any political extreme will solve this, or at least solve this without leaving behind greater problems than it found.

Try to focus on what I'm saying, not on what feeds your emotional narrative.

Example: Why do we have the most generous fuel allowance of any country in Europe? Are we the coldest country? No we're not by a long shot.

Always felt like Ireland was the coldest country in Europe to me, but that's more to do with the piss-poor quality of construction and insulation of Irish homes.

Permabear wrote: »

Radical, populist policies were implemented in Ireland between 2000 and 2008, when state spending went up by 140 percent, child benefit increased fourfold, the education budget tripled, and dole payments and the state pension more than doubled.

Not the type of 'radical' I'm criticizing.

Gloomtastic! · 29-06-2013 9:18am

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm criticizing your belief that turning to any political extreme will solve this, or at least solve this without leaving behind greater problems than it found.

And I'm saying common sense is not an extreme political viewpoint. It may be deemed more right wing than the 'let's keep everyone happy' we have at the moment but it's what this country needs.

The Corinthian · 29-06-2013 10:18am

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

And I'm saying common sense is not an extreme political viewpoint. It may be deemed more right wing than the 'let's keep everyone happy' we have at the moment but it's what this country needs.

Then try to define what you mean by 'right wing'. Centre-right parties, such as FG and FF are clearly not doing it for you, so how much further right would you like to go? In European terms are we talking Fini's 'Futuro e Libertà' party (which incidentally would likely do exactly the same as FG, as despite his neo-Fascist roots, he's just another centre-right politician now), or further along the spectrum where they're willing to take the tough decisions, like Jobbik or Golden Dawn?

The problem is that you're kind of fuzzy on all that; all you've suggested is support for a more right-wing party that will 'get things done' as it were. From what I can see, that pretty much means you're going to have to opt for the more radical, extreme ideologies as unfortunately everyone else is wrapped up in this 'middle-ground' inertia.

And once you start inviting in the extremes - left or right - to get things done, it has less to do with common sense as it does with desperation.

Gloomtastic! · 29-06-2013 11:20am

themusicman wrote: »

Can you link that figure about Irish secondary teachers hours v European average please.....Because I can't find them as you have indicated in Education at a Glance 2013 which I presume is the OECD report you are referring to.

Facts are important.....especially when discussing the real influences on our situation as opposed to the points of view that often get bandied about and shape people's opinions and then, sometimes years later are discovered to be false

This was all in the news this week but as usual the next story came along and this was forgotten. You'll find the facts here if you want to look

http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/education/education-at-a-glance-2013_eag-2013-en

Gloomtastic! · 29-06-2013 11:38am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then try to define what you mean by 'right wing'. Centre-right parties, such as FG and FF are clearly not doing it for you, so how much further right would you like to go? In European terms are we talking Fini's 'Futuro e Libertà' party (which incidentally would likely do exactly the same as FG, as despite his neo-Fascist roots, he's just another centre-right politician now), or further along the spectrum where they're willing to take the tough decisions, like Jobbik or Golden Dawn?

The problem is that you're kind of fuzzy on all that; all you've suggested is support for a more right-wing party that will 'get things done' as it were. From what I can see, that pretty much means you're going to have to opt for the more radical, extreme ideologies as unfortunately everyone else is wrapped up in this 'middle-ground' inertia.

And once you start inviting in the extremes - left or right - to get things done, it has less to do with common sense as it does with desperation.

This country could do with a good dose of Thatcherism right now.

Weakening the position of the trade unions is the first and most important step we need to take. Wouldn't take long, I'd have them bankrupt in six months. Once they're gone we can start reducing the pay of the utility companies and PS properly.

Gloomtastic! · 29-06-2013 12:24pm

Nothing to do with desperation btw....

I spent nearly 10 years trying to work with trade unions in the UK - the print unions. I've walked past the picket lines in Wapping, scum of the earth every one of them. You couldn't negotiate with them you just had to by-pass them and get to where you want to go without them.

Remember at all times, trade unions are parasites - they feed on their host until it's dead. Then they move on to their next host.

If anyone can tell me different I'll be impressed!

themusicman · 29-06-2013 2:42pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

This was all in the news this week but as usual the next story came along and this was forgotten. You'll find the facts here if you want to look

http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/education/education-at-a-glance-2013_eag-2013-en

I looked at that document

Indicator D4....how much time do teachers spend teaching. Average in lower secondary 709 hours, upper secondary 664 hours. In Ireland it's 735 hours.

That means Irish secondary teachers spend above average time teaching.

That contradicts your statement hence I asked for a link to ensure we were reading the same document.

Gloomtastic! · 29-06-2013 2:59pm

themusicman wrote: »

I looked at that document

Indicator D4....how much time do teachers spend teaching. Average in lower secondary 709 hours, upper secondary 664 hours. In Ireland it's 735 hours.

That means Irish secondary teachers spend above average time teaching.

That contradicts your statement hence I asked for a link to ensure we were reading the same document.

It was a chart in Tuesday's Indo and they mentioned it on Newstalk Breakfast as well. Indo charts aren't run on-line

themusicman · 29-06-2013 3:34pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

It was a chart in Tuesday's Indo and they mentioned it on Newstalk Breakfast as well. Indo charts aren't run on-line

That's fair enough, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply, the chart in the indicator D4 has Ireland correctly placed just above the average.
However lies damn lies etc springs to mind...
I have no problem with the concept of a correct and meaningful reform of the public service....however the starting place of any reform has to be accurately identified....

Ireland is almost unique amongst european countries in that teachers hours are solely measured in terms of class contact, as opposed to all the elements of meetings, preparation, marking etc which are time credited in the contracts teachers in other countries have.

Regarding the reporting in the media...
A mention on newstalk breakfast is, like all media, subject to the historian's anaylsis of the bias of the source....
I have no doubt the INTO will spin the figures to suit their agenda too!!!

The truth however.....

digzy · 30-06-2013 9:54am

It'll be interesting to see what he comes up with regarding a political party.
Like all the rest, I fear it may be another 'catch all' party.

As has been alluded to earlier, our borrowing despite austerity is still excessive.
I'm pessimistic we'll ever get politicians to tackle our economic issues as the system doesn't lend itself to this.

I'm in tipperary and noticed a number of people speculating what Tom Hayes would 'do' for the constituency. Yet the same people bemoan politicians who don't make the tough decisions at national level.

Lowry is another example. We all know what he is. I was chatting to a guy who'd be Fianna Fáil yet was full of praise for Lowry in getting funding for the improvements made to the local GAA pitch:rolleyes: it's ironic that people vote in guys like Lowry and Wallace yet bemoan 'the state' of the country

I believe that our current budget deficit is completely unsustainable. Unfortunately any political party that would tackle this issue would be politically toxic. And we all know that any politicians primary objective is reelection!

digzy · 30-06-2013 9:57am

rumour wrote: »

Are yo checking out opinions on a state salary from one of our institutionally recognized parties?

Seriously your OP really appears that way.

Yeah, rumour. You've unmasked me. I'm actually enda fcuking Kenny:rolleyes:

Dracula88 · 11-08-2013 10:45am

Through out the years we have heard many stories regarding Republicanism. Over the years a lot of the Irish have supported Republicanism. The thing most people don't understand is that Republicanism is associated with left wing politics. If the majority of people in Government Buildings support Republicanism then we have a majority of left wing politicians.

The Corinthian · 11-08-2013 11:06am

Depends on your definition of a Republic, and there's been many of those. The optimates of the Roman Republic were republicans too, opposing the introduction of de-facto monarchy under Julius Caesar and Octavian, but I doubt you could call them 'left wing'.

The conspirators in the 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt were conservatives that sought to retain the old Soviet political system rather than continue with reforms. They were considered right wing; yet they were also communists, so should they not be considered left wing?

The whole left-right wing model is a lot more complex that most people realize and is not so easily distilled with a few labels.

laoch na mona · 11-08-2013 6:38pm

Dracula88 wrote: »

Through out the years we have heard many stories regarding Republicanism. Over the years a lot of the Irish have supported Republicanism. The thing most people don't understand is that Republicanism is associated with left wing politics. If the majority of people in Government Buildings support Republicanism then we have a majority of left wing politicians.

no we don't FF and FG are right wing

A right wing party

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