Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

what_traffic · 26-06-2013 10:29AM

corktina wrote: »

here's n idea..what happens in the UK to re-open a railway line, is that all the enthusiasts band together and donate their own labour and money to acheive this.

WoT could do this for the WRC.....

So for that matter could the cycling fraternity.....

I'd be happy to support either.(moral support that is...)

Interesting point re the money - the ratios are the killer for the WoT though. How many kms do you get for €1 million for a greenway v's railway? You would create a National Greenway network with 100kms for the €100+ million that was spent on the short railway section between Athenry and Ennis.

Markcheese · 26-06-2013 10:55AM

bazza1 wrote: »

tired and hungry tourists?

" If you build it.....THEY WILL COME!"

Sounds like the plot of " Field of Dreams".....oh wait....:)

If you build it PROPERLY, and MARKET it right they'll come...if you try and get a county council or Quango to do it,it'll cost a fortune,be gold plated, take forever... And won't work ... Roads to no where....
I think local groups should tender for funding to develop greenways.... (not just cost but local benefit also )

corktina · 26-06-2013 12:44PM

what_traffic wrote: »

Interesting point re the money - the ratios are the killer for the WoT though. How many kms do you get for €1 million for a greenway v's railway? You would create a National Greenway network with 100kms for the €100+ million that was spent on the short railway section between Athenry and Ennis.

tell you what though, I'd pay good money to ride on it as it is now (with the trees cleared)...the charm is in the hopelessness and dereliction. I used to be fascinated by the Welsh Highland Railway until it got re-build as a Branch of South African Rly.... not my tasse de thé at all now

bk · 26-06-2013 01:21PM

what_traffic wrote: »

Interesting point re the money - the ratios are the killer for the WoT though. How many kms do you get for €1 million for a greenway v's railway? You would create a National Greenway network with 100kms for the €100+ million that was spent on the short railway section between Athenry and Ennis.

Exactly and 100kms of cycling paths would have benefited us both socially (safe place to exercise for locals) and financially (tourists) far more then the WRC ever will.

westtip · 27-06-2013 01:40PM

bk wrote: »

Exactly and 100kms of cycling paths would have benefited us both socially (safe place to exercise for locals) and financially (tourists) far more then the WRC ever will.

The 106 million spent on the WRC phase one investment could have delivered between 1500 and 2000 km of greenway; imagine what such a network would have done for local facilities and tourism, not to mention what is it 3 4 or 5 million a year subvention on this line.

Ah sure 8 folk per train is money well invested.....:mad:

rainbowdash · 27-06-2013 03:37PM

westtip wrote: »

The 106 million spent on the WRC phase one investment could have delivered between 1500 and 2000 km of greenway; imagine what such a network would have done for local facilities and tourism, not to mention what is it 3 4 or 5 million a year subvention on this line.

Ah sure 8 folk per train is money well invested.....:mad:

yawn, yawn, yawn.

It doesn't work like that, if the WRC never went ahead the money might have gone on a bypass, new school or hospital ward.

The money was there at the time, money was spent on plenty of worse things than the WRC, get over it.

Richard Logue · 27-06-2013 04:23PM

Anglo Irish Bank inflicted Billions of Euro damage on Ireland and its reputation abroad. Funny that the WRC seems to be something that will anger and inflame some people instead of that.

monument · 27-06-2013 05:24PM

Richard Logue wrote: »

Anglo Irish Bank inflicted Billions of Euro damage on Ireland and its reputation abroad. Funny that the WRC seems to be something that will anger and inflame some people instead of that.

Welcome to commuting and transport, we talk about transport issues here, there's other parts of boards if you want to talk about Anglo.[

Future posts like this from you will be viewed as off topic or baiting people, and you will be sanctioned for such posting.

This is a mod warning, normal rules apply -- see the charter.

TINA1984 · 27-06-2013 05:35PM

Richard Logue wrote: »

Anglo Irish Bank inflicted Billions of Euro damage on Ireland and its reputation abroad. Funny that the WRC seems to be something that will anger and inflame some people instead of that.

Not buying that Richard. The WRC money would have have been far better spent either upgrading the Galway - Dublin line west of the Shannon or re-opening Tuam - Athenry.

As it is the WRC as we know will never be anything more then the poor relation in terms of time to the bus or by car, plus it make's a mockery of projects like the Midleton line re-opening - reopened as a result solid long-term planning initiatives.

For those saying its built get over it what's done is done, it's a huge drain on public finances to the tune of €2m+ a year minimum. If I were looking for bits of the IE network to mothball I know where I'd be starting with

_edit didn't see mod warning sorry! _

westtip · 27-06-2013 06:39PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

yawn, yawn, yawn.

It doesn't work like that, if the WRC never went ahead the money might have gone on a bypass, new school or hospital ward.

The money was there at the time, money was spent on plenty of worse things than the WRC, get over it.

rainbow its only hypothetical thinking and the two are not of course related sure look at all the other wasted projects apart from the WRC phase one, like e-voting machines etc. I agree with what you say its not a matter of money spent on this would have been spent on that - incidentally the money spent on the WRC was probably borrowed, so need to add the interest to the cost as well. But also agree with Tina1984 that the money had it been spent on other parts of the network would have been money better spent, eg double tracking Athlone Galway or even re-opening Athlone Mullingar - which would have been far more beneficial to the west and the overall network......all history now, but he subvention of a line that many said would not work is galling but not as galling as what went on in the banks, the WRC is chicken feed compared to that - but thats what we are discussing on this thread.

monument · 28-06-2013 02:44PM

Mod warning to everybody:

Read the charter before posting!

Trying to make out people don't care about Anglo because they are posting about the WRC on a transport board is the worst baiting I've ever seen... A warning for that is mild!

rainbowdash · 28-06-2013 05:20PM

westtip wrote: »

[/QUOTE
However lets hear the rationale reasoned arguments in favour of the railway

I think everybody on here knows that a railway north of Claremorris will never be viable, south of Claremorris is maybe worth preserving the alignment. We also know that a greenway would be a nice local amenity but throngs of tired and hungry tourists will not be using it either.

Constantly suggesting that west on track are blocking some mega tourist greenway project that will lead to lots of jobs is nonsense too.

Richard Logue · 28-06-2013 05:22PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think everybody on here knows that a railway north of Claremorris will never be viable, south of Claremorris is maybe worth preserving the alignment. We also know that a greenway would be a nice local amenity but throngs of tired and hungry tourists will not be using it either.

Constantly suggesting that west on track are blocking some mega tourist greenway project that will lead to lots of jobs is nonsense too.

My thoughts exactly.

monument · 28-06-2013 05:53PM

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think everybody on here knows that a railway north of Claremorris will never be viable, south of Claremorris is maybe worth preserving the alignment. We also know that a greenway would be a nice local amenity but throngs of tired and hungry tourists will not be using it either.

Constantly suggesting that west on track are blocking some mega tourist greenway project that will lead to lots of jobs is nonsense too.

If the section of the WRC between Tuam and Sligo was built as a greenway and if it was even half as successful as the Great Western Greenway, it would still be worth doing.

It would lead to new long-term jobs paid for tourism and added support to current jobs.

It's unlikely to ever be the most busy greenway but it could play a key role in linking the Dublin-Galway route with locations and routes planned in Mayo, Sligo, and beyond.

It's potental is greater than local but even more local reasoning is strong on its own.

Blocking a greenway for a railway that might be in the distance future seems a bit of a weak idea.

monument · 29-06-2013 11:00PM

I'm close to locking this thread for good...

Ok, to save myself and people on "both sides", I'm deleting the he said / she said posts and the sniping posts. I can't establish half of what is being said without spending a crazy amount of time looking back over the thread but I've already spent too long on this thread. So we'll try this:

If you want to make a claim that somebody said something about somebody else and it was not in the recent few posts please quote their post. If they said it somewhere else bring that up somewhere else -- we're not interested in what users are saying outside this site.

Again: All posters here have to read the charter! But just to be clear no sniping calling here towards users here or people and groups off line: Constitutive criticism is fine: Name calling and other sniping is not. Generally just keep in civil!

Do not reply to this post or never reply to moderation and don't reply to people who are clearly trolling or otherwise breaking the rules -- report them or just leave the issue alone, replying isn't an option.

This is a warning. Next step is infractions.

Grandeeod · 29-06-2013 11:24PM

corktina wrote: »

tell you what though, I'd pay good money to ride on it as it is now (with the trees cleared)...the charm is in the hopelessness and dereliction. I used to be fascinated by the Welsh Highland Railway until it got re-build as a Branch of South African Rly.... not my tasse de thé at all now

Nice idea. But no insurance company would cover it.

Grandeeod · 30-06-2013 12:14AM

Richard Logue wrote: »

Anglo Irish Bank inflicted Billions of Euro damage on Ireland and its reputation abroad. Funny that the WRC seems to be something that will anger and inflame some people instead of that.

With all due respect Richard, that's a daft post. The Anglo affair has generated a lot of anger and inflamed people. But on relevant forums/platforms. It has pissed me right off! But it's hardly representative of what we are discussing here.

However the WRC is a different beast. It may not have bankrupted a nation, but if we micro the concept, it is in itself an issue that has contributed much debate and consternation within the railway community. It may even have similar consequences to Anglo, but in railway terms. If I may be insular for a moment, it has divided rail enthusiasts and those with a different interest in railways. We know this much. On a broader scale, people such as economists, the general public and a community of blase politicians look upon it in a different way.

Economists = making ends meet.

General Public = Disinterest/Whatever and reactionary views to forms of lobbying.

Politicians = A game to be played.

This will always be the same no matter what rail reopening we talk about. Personally, the WRC is a dead duck for me. Economically, it doesn't stack up. The people of the West of Ireland (majority speaking) don't seem to care and Politicians will always ride whatever bandwagon suits them. The figures are poor and the original naysayers look to be right. I've seen absolutely no evidence that it will work. We spent 100 odd million on it in construction costs plus all the consultation, expenses and associated costs via western rail committees etc. Furthermore it requires a subvention. Yes we already know that railways elsewhere in Ireland require a subvention. But that's where we come back to what's worth subventing. The WRC appears not worth subventing.

A Greenway.

I don't particularly care. I believe that north of Tuam is absolutely beyond any form of consideration. I also believe that the only organisation against a Greenway is very wrong and misguided to consider opposing it. A Greenway may not bring in millions in income, but at the very least, its an idea to do something with the alignment. Realistically the options right now are;

1. Do nothing and let it continue rotting. Maybe replace a fake level crossing every few years. Let landowners take further control beyond whats already been taken.

2. Shore it up. Mark it out and take control of it. Mown the lawn. Close down housing access points that took over post closure. (Surely you have seen the craziness of planning permissions granted near Collooney.) and plan a railway. Seal off all rail alignment land.

3. Farm it out to a social use.

Can you see point 2 happening? Point 1 is happening, while point 3 is the epicentre of all rows about the goddamn thing.

corktina · 30-06-2013 07:23AM

that just about sums it up.It's pretty much a dead topic.

Further debate on here as a Railway Project is meaningless as it will never happen (hopefully, as we have wasted enough already) and debate as a Greenway belongs elsewhere, a it isn't a C&T issue...leisure or sport perhaps?

I think maybe we should leave it at that as far as C&T is concerned

monument · 30-06-2013 11:24AM

If you're not interested don't bother posting, any more posting about this thread being closed or not in the right place will be viewed as clear trolling.

corktina wrote: »

that just about sums it up.It's pretty much a dead topic.

Further debate on here as a Railway Project is meaningless as it will never happen (hopefully, as we have wasted enough already) and debate as a Greenway belongs elsewhere, a it isn't a C&T issue...leisure or sport perhaps?

I think maybe we should leave it at that as far as C&T is concerned

This kind of posting is view back seat modding.

But I'll explain anyway:

While greenways are often used for leisure (1) they double as local, mid-range, and less often longer transport corridors; (2) a road transport route aimed at tourists still is an ok topic for C&T, wheather driving or cycling the tourist is still using transport; (3) even if none of the rest applied we're still taking about uses of what is set out to be a transport route.

Tuam Greenway Project · 01-07-2013 11:39AM

rainbowdash wrote: »

I think everybody on here knows that a railway north of Claremorris will never be viable, south of Claremorris is maybe worth preserving the alignment. We also know that a greenway would be a nice local amenity but throngs of tired and hungry tourists will not be using it either.

Constantly suggesting that west on track are blocking some mega tourist greenway project that will lead to lots of jobs is nonsense too.

Cycling and walking are legitimate and smart forms of transport, not just leisure activities. One of the key aims of our campaign is to create safe and attractive routes to schools, industrial estates and sports facilities.

Greenways are smart transport infrastructure which just happen to be attractive to tourists.

The real tourist potential will only materialise when there is a network of joined up greenways threading around the country, opening access to places of interest ( yes we do have some of these in Tuam ), shops, services and greenway targeted accommodation.

galwaycyclist · 01-07-2013 04:05PM

Letter in today's Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/an-east-west-greenway-1.1446699

<snip>
In the northwest we had welcome news this week of funding to investigate a greenway on the old Sligo north Leitrim rail line which will run from Collooney Co Sligo into Co Leitrim and on to Co Cavan.

If this greenway is put in place, then surely we can realise the only good use for the Western Rail Corridor route from Collooney in Sligo down to Athenry in Co Galway is to convert it to a greenway that will connect with the Great Western Greenway and the east-west cross-country greenway?

Mayo County Council recently received hundreds of public submissions on the new county plan asking for this old railway to be converted to a greenway. Public opinion has changed. There simply isn’t the money nor the political will to re-open a railway from Athenry to Sligo; in particular when the train line opened from Ennis to Athenry is carrying an average of eight passengers a train.

Why can’t these facts now be faced. We simply don’t need a Western Rail Corridor. A greenway on this route will deliver thousands of tired hungry tourists for a fraction of a cost. Why can’t this nettle be grasped? – Yours, etc,

westtip · 01-07-2013 06:17PM

Great letter - couldn't have put it better myself:D:D:D:D

galwaycyclist · 02-07-2013 09:00AM

Report urges major overhaul of Galway-Limerick rail route

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/report-urges-major-overhaul-of-galway-limerick-rail-route-235746.html

Faster, earlier, and more reliable rail services are needed on the line between Limerick and Galway to maximise the potential of the route, according to a report prepared for the National Transport Authority.
The study on the Western Rail Corridor, which has been seen by the Irish Examiner, criticises existing rail timetables between the cities as confusing, restricted, and “less than satisfactory”.

<Snip/even more>

serfboard · 02-07-2013 01:11PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Report urges major overhaul of Galway-Limerick rail route

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/report-urges-major-overhaul-of-galway-limerick-rail-route-235746.html

Report on Limerick->Galway wrote:

The current service offering on the route is unattractive to many people as it is slow, infrequent, and costly, in particular when compared to other modes of travel, especially car and bus

and

journey times are longer than might be expected due to the large number of permanent speed restrictions on the line, which include 35 level crossings.

and

journey times between Galway and Limerick could be cut by up to 20 minutes, including a saving of five minutes by cutting out stops at Craughwell and Ardrahan on peak services.

and finally

The report recommends the introduction of an earlier morning and evening services between Athenry and Galway to facilitate commuters and students who start before 8am

This report is incredible. They could have done it all just by reading this thread and the good suggestions that people here have made. (Maybe that's what they did do

)

Anyway, make it faster, cheaper and better timetabled and you might just start getting passengers on it.

However, I still believe that Ennis northward and Gort southwards won't attract big numbers of commuters because (a) the population isn't there and (b) it doesn't fit commuting patterns.

TINA1984 · 02-07-2013 02:27PM

What the WRC needs is the closure of the useless Co. Galway village stops and the service to be merged with Limerick - Limerick Junction - Waterford and timed & branded as a genuine cross country service. No doubt there is a myriad of reasons, both from IE & campaign groups, why this can't be.

rainbowdash · 02-07-2013 02:45PM

TINA1984 wrote: »

What the WRC needs is the closure of the useless Co. Galway village stops and the service to be merged with Limerick - Limerick Junction - Waterford and timed & branded as a genuine cross country service. No doubt there is a myriad of reasons, both from IE & campaign groups, why this can't be.

My sentiments exactly. Close ardahan and craughwell too, or apply a use it or lose it rule on the locals for 2 years.

Instead they seem to be hell bent on opening crusheen even though it is likely to flop.

Rebranding is an excellent idea, and break it away from Irish rail, similar to Shannon airport from the DAA, reduce fares on the weaker sections and market the line properly with tight timings that compete with the bus.

The school tour season has just passed, how many tours used the train?

Plenty of opportunity there if somebody had the job of going out and selling the thing.

what_traffic · 02-07-2013 03:43PM

Irish Rail or WOT press release?
http://www.galwaybayfm.ie/component/k2/item/1665-irish-rail-to-improve-galway-to-limerick-route

serfboard · 02-07-2013 04:54PM

Available here.

Judgement Day · 02-07-2013 06:22PM

Okay, life's too short to read all that waffle - can somebody summarise the findings in a couple of paragraphs? How much did the report cost?

The only figure that jumped out of it - amongst real ale trains and birdwatching specials - was an unbelievable 809,000 visitors to the Cliffs of Moher. :eek:

Grandeeod · 02-07-2013 09:20PM

Judgement Day wrote: »

Okay, life's too short to read all that waffle - can somebody summarise the findings in a couple of paragraphs? How much did the report cost?

The only figure that jumped out of it - amongst real ale trains and birdwatching specials - was an unbelievable 809,000 visitors to the Cliffs of Moher. :eek:

I've just read it. I needed a stiff drink afterwards. Funny how Rosslare - Waterford is condemned, while the WRC wastes more money on how to make the unworkable...workable.

"Real Ale trail. Music and Ale trains"

"Scenic line guides highlighting leisure opportunities including hill walking, bird watching and visiting local pubs."

WTF!

In essence the only comparable rail lines they could or were told to compare it too are "Jolly Boys outing efforts" in the UK and a remote railway in Holland. Lots of buses are recommended to connect with stations to bring you to festivals and events that aren't actually near the line. WOT recommendations continue with things like reduce the running time. This produced IRs biggest retort with basically, it was reopened along the historical alignment and this is the reality. WOT suggest free parking which IR is extending. **** the rest of us though! They also suggest removing the smaller rural stations! Desperate men will do desperate things! Lets not forget the recommendation to cut down hedgerows to improve sightings of level crossings and employing crossing keepers to help remove PSRs.

Basically its stating that the line is aimed at commuters and tourists. Commuter services between Limerick - Ennis and Galway - Athenry need earlier and later trains but are the backbone of the usage figures. For the 100 million euro bit in between they recommend the following off peak;

Less need for speed. A focus on a tourist style service. Dedicated rolling stock to facilitate bikes, Wet gear for walkers, luggage and fine dining facilities. Ennis is to become a tourist mecca with connecting buses to all that Clare has to offer.

5 drivers operate the current service 7 days per week. The report recommends another driver for the services it proposes. IR cost this at 63K per annum. Dedicated rolling stock is another recommendation requiring the re-diagramming of stock in the region or buying it. But essentially its a list of WOT recommendations most of which weren't actually assessed but were recommended for further consideration.

How would I sum it up in a paragraph? Here you go!

Its too slow. Too expensive. Needs tourists and lots of bikes, walking gear etc to keep the 100 million euro bit in the middle going. Reduce the price. Offer fee station parking. Cut out stops at rural stations on peak services. Dedicated rolling stock and specialist trains offering Jamie Oliver cuisine. Honestly its all bikes and tourists. Westtip will have a field day!

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments