Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

ScissorPaperRock · 26-06-2013 12:52AM

Given it's Paul O'Connell we're talking about I don't think it would much to affect Jamie's ego

schools rugby · 26-06-2013 01:13AM

POC has been superb on this Lions tour and he did say it was because he want captain again . Personally id prefer Heaslip as captain and POC can speak when he feels it necessary

Fireball07 · 26-06-2013 01:20AM

schools rugby wrote: »

POC has been superb on this Lions tour and he did say it was because he want captain again . Personally id prefer Heaslip as captain and POC can speak when he feels it necessary

Which is all the time, it looks like.

I don't think he can help himself, he always seems to be first to the ref no matter what.....I think he just likes talking to refs

26-06-2013 08:16AM

jm08 wrote: »

Will Jamie not be needed to captain Leinster next season? Can't see Leo being made captain again for his final year and there are no other obvious candidates other than Shane Jennings who isn't a definate starter anymore.

What difference does it make if the captain is injury prone anyway? It gives other players a chance to step up for a game or two without having to carry the job fulltime.

nope, more than likely to be a non-international.

It will be Cullen. And the following year I could see someone like McLaughlin or Ruddock getting the badge (guys who aren't called into International squads for over 1/4 of the regular season.

Mahatma Geansai · 26-06-2013 08:28AM

I can't see Cullen staying on as Leinster captain next year. He's been running on empty the last year or two and Leinster should be really hoping that someone can jump ahead of him into the starting team next season. Hopefully Macca can find his early season form too, otherwise Leinster are in trouble.

Bogota · 26-06-2013 08:33AM

I'd keep the captaincy with Heaslip too. Some of the criticism was completely OTT. I would always take comments on players like Heaslip or Sexton on here with bit of salt. Some people just can't stand the fact that after years of trying to put them down both players are still world class and starting Lions.

26-06-2013 08:36AM

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I can't see Cullen staying on as Leinster captain next year. He's been running on empty the last year or two and Leinster should be really hoping that someone can jump ahead of him into the starting team next season. Hopefully Macca can find his early season form too, otherwise Leinster are in trouble.

Leinster related, not really Ireland related, but Cullen is club captain, and Leinster had had no issues benching or not even selecting him this season.

Ruddock, Jennings, Heaslip amongst others have captained the side in his absence.

It is not a team devoid of leaders.

But Club Captain will definitely stay with Cullen. There's pretty much no solid reason to take it off him.

Buer · 26-06-2013 09:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But Club Captain will definitely stay with Cullen. There's pretty much no solid reason to take it off him.

Pretty much. It's all the more likely given Matt O'Connor is coming from a club where they had a club captain who regularly didn't make the XV or even the match day squad. Cullen will be involved a lot more than Geordan Murphy was though.

.ak · 26-06-2013 09:12AM

jm08 wrote: »

Will Jamie not be needed to captain Leinster next season? Can't see Leo being made captain again for his final year and there are no other obvious candidates other than Shane Jennings who isn't a definate starter anymore.

What difference does it make if the captain is injury prone anyway? It gives other players a chance to step up for a game or two without having to carry the job fulltime.

For a club? No difference. For country, with short international windows? Massive.

jm08 · 26-06-2013 09:26AM

.ak wrote: »

For a club? No difference. For country, with short international windows? Massive.

Brian O'Driscoll missed a fair bit through injury over the years - I don't recall anyone claiming he shouldn't be captain because of that. Someone else stepped up when he wasn't available (Easterby, Foley, POC, ROG, Geordan Murphy, Rory Best come to mind who have captained Ireland over the years when he has been injured). Keith Wood was also injury prone as well and BOD was temporary captain when he was out towards the end of his career. The Welsh have a very injury prone player as their captain and their NH results are fairly good!

.ak · 26-06-2013 09:27AM

jm08 wrote: »

Brian O'Driscoll missed a fair bit through injury over the years - I don't recall anyone claiming he shouldn't be captain because of that. Someone else stepped up when he wasn't available (Easterby, Foley, POC, ROG, Geordan Murphy, Rory Best come to mind who have captained Ireland over the years when he has been injured). Keith Wood was also injury prone as well and BOD was temporary captain when he was out towards the end of his career. The Welsh have a very injury prone player as their captain and their NH results are fairly good!

To be honest, championship aside, Wales really struggled this year.

BOD's start stats are amazing for the past 10 years, so I don't think you can use that at all? Hasn't he only missed one 6N campaign since he became captain?

jm08 · 26-06-2013 09:54AM

.ak wrote: »

To be honest, championship aside, Wales really struggled this year.

BOD's start stats are amazing for the past 10 years, so I don't think you can use that at all? Hasn't he only missed one 6N campaign since he became captain?

Wales still have two 6Ns championships in the last two years. Warburton missed a few games in those two championships through injury and when not fully fit stepped down as captain/was demoted.

He has got injured during 6Ns campaigns though (he was missing for French game in '07). He was also missing for the campaign that Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6Ns at outside centre (2003/2004?). Lots of times I think he played even though he wasn't fully fit and he has missed a lot of other games in the autumn/tours.

.ak · 26-06-2013 10:01AM

jm08 wrote: »

Wales still have two 6Ns championships in the last two years. Warburton missed a few games in those two championships through injury and when not fully fit stepped down as captain/was demoted.

You dodged my point. They didn't play well this year and a lot of that probably had to do with the Captain stepping down and/or changing coach.

He has got injured during 6Ns campaigns though (he was missing for French game in '07). He was also missing for the campaign that Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6Ns at outside centre (2003/2004?). Lots of times I think he played even though he wasn't fully fit and he has missed a lot of other games in the autumn/tours.

Right, so basically feck all in 10 years.

Buer · 26-06-2013 10:07AM

jm08 wrote: »

He has got injured during 6Ns campaigns though (he was missing for French game in '07). He was also missing for the campaign that Gordon D'Arcy won Player of the 6Ns at outside centre (2003/2004?). Lots of times I think he played even though he wasn't fully fit and he has missed a lot of other games in the autumn/tours.

He has 131 international starts out of a possible 160 in 14 years. That's freakish consistency. 82% of games. Take out the 8 tests played during Lions tours he has been on and he's close to 90%.

POC has started 86 of 135 matches since his debut. That's a massive drop.

I believe POC should be captain entirely but your argument on game time is very patchy. His fitness and availability is the one big issue with making him captain.

bilston · 26-06-2013 10:24AM

If POC is the best captain available to Ireland and if he is going to be available through to the WC (and all the indications are that he will go through to 2015) then I see no reason why not to give him the gig. That's no reflection on Heaslip whose leadership I've actually noticed even more since the 6Ns, it's just that O'Connell is an incredible leader.

As to whether the story in the Indo is true or not, well that's a different matter altogether and I'd be surprised if Schmidt has made that decision yet. But if in time he does make POC captain then it would be a very good choice.

jm08 · 26-06-2013 10:37AM

.ak wrote: »

You dodged my point. They didn't play well this year and a lot of that probably had to do with the Captain stepping down and/or changing coach.

Warburton was captain in the game they lost in the 6Ns (to Ireland). He was missing for the French game and Wales won it without him. He was captain against Australia in the autumn and they lost that as well.

Right, so basically feck all in 10 years.

Since he missed so little, how do you know it would make a huge difference if he wasn't there as captain (obviously his playing ability will be missed). Would the team's performance not be as good if he wasn't captain?

.ak · 26-06-2013 10:43AM

jm08 wrote: »

Since he missed so little, how do you know it would make a huge difference if he wasn't there as captain (obviously his playing ability will be missed). Would the team's performance not be as good if he wasn't captain?

Personally? I think the whole captain thing is over rated. I think once there's plenty of leaders on the team then it makes feck all difference who wears an armband. The idea that people were blaming Heaslip for a poor Irish campaign is the height of it.

The point I was making is there's no point in picking a captain who's more than likely going to miss out on a tour because of his recent spat of injuries.

On that basis I'd be surprised if POC was named captain. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised none the less.

jm08 · 26-06-2013 10:45AM

Buer wrote: »

He has 131 international starts out of a possible 160 in 14 years. That's freakish consistency. 82% of games. Take out the 8 tests played during Lions tours he has been on and he's close to 90%.

POC has started 86 of 135 matches since his debut. That's a massive drop.

I believe POC should be captain entirely but your argument on game time is very patchy. His fitness and availability is the one big issue with making him captain.

My point is that it is over cautious to rule him out of the captaincy because he maybe injury prone, particularly if he wouldn't have missed as much in the last 18 months if they hadn't tried to manage his back problem. His present injury is minor and is only keeping him off the playing pitch as he seems to be working away with the team and photographed going for a recovery swim with the rest of the squad with his lower arm bandaged - no worse than what happened to Tommy Bowe.

If you were to rule people out because of their injury record, Leo Cullen would have been retired as Leinster captain 2/3 years ago.

Foxtrol · 26-06-2013 10:45AM

jm08 wrote: »

POC has had a run of 12 games up to his recent injury which isn't too bad. Much better than Warburton for instance who captains Wales.

What was Warburton's injury record prior to being made Wales captain?

You seem to equate being made captain and not being dropped as captain as being the same thing when it clearly isn't.

jm08 · 26-06-2013 10:51AM

.ak wrote: »

Personally? I think the whole captain thing is over rated. I think once there's plenty of leaders on the team then it makes feck all difference who wears an armband. The idea that people were blaming Heaslip for a poor Irish campaign is the height of it.

The point I was making is there's no point in picking a captain who's more than likely going to miss out on a tour because of his recent spat of injuries.

On that basis I'd be surprised if POC was named captain. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised none the less.

I don't think anyone was blaming Heaslip for a poor 6Ns campaign (Kidney got the blame) - more that Heaslip's own game suffered (or to put it another way, he is playing much better for the Lions which could be down to just having to worry about his own game).

.ak · 26-06-2013 10:52AM

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think anyone was blaming Heaslip for a poor 6Ns campaign (Kidney got the blame) - more that Heaslip's own game suffered (or to put it another way, he is playing much better for the Lions which could be down to just having to worry about his own game).

Yeah, I don't buy that, but hey that's another debate for another day.

Podge_irl · 26-06-2013 10:53AM

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think anyone was blaming Heaslip for a poor 6Ns campaign (Kidney got the blame) - more that Heaslip's own game suffered (or to put it another way, he is playing much better for the Lions which could be down to just having to worry about his own game).

Everyone's game suffered because Ireland were playing **** rugby under a bad coach. In case you haven't noticed every Irish player is playing better for the Lions.

Buer · 26-06-2013 10:55AM

jm08 wrote: »

If you were to rule people out because of their injury record, Leo Cullen would have been retired as Leinster captain 2/3 years ago.

No idea where you're getting that impression. He has been a model of consistency. Over 200 Leinster appearances despite being in England for a couple of years. He'll break the 300 professional appearances barrier next season.
`

jm08 · 26-06-2013 10:56AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

What was Warburton's injury record prior to being made Wales captain?

He was very young when he was made captain, so really didn't have much time to be injured!

You seem to equate being made captain and not being dropped as captain as being the same thing when it clearly isn't.

No I don't! They clearly are different things.

jm08 · 26-06-2013 11:11AM

Buer wrote: »

No idea where you're getting that impression. He has been a model of consistency. Over 200 Leinster appearances despite being in England for a couple of years. He'll break the 300 professional appearances barrier next season.
`

He averages less than 20 games a season now (out of a possible 30+).

My point is though I don't think its relevant whether he is injury prone or not - when he is available he is the best captain available to Leinster and they would be foolish not to have made him captain because of that.

When he isn't available, it gives an opportunity to others like Heislip to step up to the plate.

irishbucsfan · 26-06-2013 11:15AM

Didn't POC step down as Munster captain because of his injuries?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 26-06-2013 11:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Didn't POC step down as Munster captain because of his injuries?

Ya but that was during a period where it was unsure if he would actually play rugby again

Buer · 26-06-2013 11:20AM

jm08 wrote: »

He averages less than 20 games a season now (out of a possible 30+).

No he doesn't. He also played more games than ever before last season.

Foxtrol · 26-06-2013 12:16PM

jm08 wrote: »

He was very young when he was made captain, so really didn't have much time to be injured!

No I don't! They clearly are different things.

So you accept Warburton didn't have an injury record before he became captain of Wales and that being made captain with a terrible recent injury record is different than not being dropped as captain due to a terrible recent injury record. Why the hell did you try to use Warburton as a shield for POC's injury record being a reason not to make him captain?

Grimebox · 26-06-2013 12:18PM

I assumed POC's injury was the end of his career to be honest given his age and how long its previously taken him to come back from injury. Any truth to that?

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

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