Am I going to hell?

welkin · 24-06-2013 01:49PM #1

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

Manach · 24-06-2013 02:17PM

Offhand, as per the OP's original query my understanding that,overall , Christianity is the surest means of achieving salivation but living a, objectively speaking, moral life would be a means of achieving the hoped-for ends.
Again, not a scholar on these matters, but Dante had placed such in the way-station of Purgatory.

homer911 · 24-06-2013 03:14PM

Those who have heard the word of God become responsible for their response to it. Equally if there is no condemnation for those who have never heard the gospel, then there is no motivation for Christians to evangelise.

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

Incidentally, praying to God (in general terms) does not make you a Christian

homer911 · 24-06-2013 03:32PM

This is a fuller response to the same question

http://www.compellingtruth.org/never-heard-Christ.html

Benny_Cake · 24-06-2013 03:47PM

Mod note: This isn't a thread for atheist / Christian debate, nor is it a comedy thread. Lets keep it on topic, please.

ravima · 24-06-2013 03:59PM

There is also a minor enough heresy - that the love of Jesus is so wide no one will be condemned to Hell.

Ash.J.Williams · 24-06-2013 04:01PM

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, as per the OP's original query my understanding that,overall , Christianity is the surest means of achieving salivation but living a, objectively speaking, moral life would be a means of achieving the hoped-for ends.
Again, not a scholar on these matters, but Dante had placed such in the way-station of Purgatory.

salivation?

Benny_Cake · 24-06-2013 04:10PM

ravima wrote: »

There is also a minor enough heresy - that the love of Jesus is so wide no one will be condemned to Hell.

That would be universalism. There was a denomination in America - the Universalist Church which held that belief, but they merged with the Unitarians back in the 1960s. There is also a small Baptist denomination in the Appalachian mountains known as Primitive Baptist Universalists (or no-Hellers). Although no other groups hold that belief as far as I know, it's likely that there are many individual Christians who do. Rob Bell created a bit of a stir about it with his "Love Wins" book a few years back.

There is also the concept of annihilationism which holds that final punishment represents the destruction of the soul (ie; non-existence). It's held by Seventh-day Adventists and a number of other groups.

martinedwards · 24-06-2013 05:49PM

according to orthodox Christianity, if you aren't a Christian, you don't get into heaven.

good works count for nothing.

Fanny Cradock · 24-06-2013 05:54PM

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

Your post poses a lot of questions.

1) Moral by whose standard? If you answer is your own morality or society's then that doesn't get you very far if these morals are in opposition to objective morality.

2) Why do you think that being a good person is sufficient for salvation?

3) Conversely why do you think that not praying is enough to condemn you to hell (whatever we understand that to be)?

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-06-2013 06:18PM

if being moral and a good person was enough then Jesus needn't have died.
by the same token being religious doesn't do it either.

MrPudding · 24-06-2013 08:00PM

Vance Abundant Rotation wrote: »

if being moral and a good person was enough then Jesus needn't have died.
by the same token being religious doesn't do it either.

But couldn't it have been enough?

MrP

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-06-2013 08:14PM

MrPudding wrote: »

But couldn't it have been enough?

MrP

Jesus had to die to open the way by dealing with sin.
being good enough couldn't do it. that was why the law wasn't good enough and he came as the only one able to fulfill it and meet its demands.

welkin · 24-06-2013 08:15PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Your post poses a lot of questions.

1) Moral by whose standard? If you answer is your own morality or society's then that doesn't get you very far if these morals are in opposition to objective morality.

2) Why do you think that being a good person is sufficient for salvation?

3) Conversely why do you think that not praying is enough to condemn you to hell (whatever we understand that to be)?

1) I arrived at my morality through experience and reason. Of course you may not think i'm moral. Objective morality doesn't exist imo

2) If being a "good" person is satisfied I can't really see the need for any other criteria. Nit scanty not getting in upstairs cause you weren't baptised/confirmed/administered last rites or whatever.

3) By not "praying" I just meant it as a fast way of saying that i do not practice any Catholic doctrines and rituals whatsoever.

I'm just trying to figure out where I stand from a Catholic or Christian view. I know Dante said all noble pagans like Plato are on the first floor of hell but it's Hell nonetheless. But is Dante even taken seriously by Theologians?

uck51js9zml2yt · 24-06-2013 08:19PM

welkin wrote: »

1) I arrived at my morality through experience and reason. Of course you may not think i'm moral. Objective morality doesn't exist imo

2) If being a "good" person is satisfied I can't really see the need for any other criteria. Nit scanty not getting in upstairs cause you weren't baptised/confirmed/administered last rites or whatever.

3) By not "praying" I just meant it as a fast way of saying that i do not practice any Catholic doctrines and rituals whatsoever.

I'm just trying to figure out where I stand from a Catholic or Christian view. I know Dante said all noble pagans like Plato are on the first floor of hell but it's Hell nonetheless. But is Dante even taken seriously by Theologians?

from a Christian point of view your being a good person doesn't cut it with God.

Manach · 24-06-2013 09:38PM

Without a concept of objective morality, we all can slide into a utilitarian model that undercuts the bindings of society and require the state to step in to co-equate morality and law, which leading theorists have suggested is not wise.
Being good without an external yardstick to measure is now available to anyone, so long as they believed (as most of us do) we are on the side of goodness - which usual defaults to obeying whatever the current mores of society. To achieve a measure of goodness, some deeds within the Christian framework are required to reap what has been earned in life, as per St. Paul.

Fanny Cradock · 24-06-2013 10:14PM

welkin wrote: »

1) I arrived at my morality through experience and reason. Of course you may not think i'm moral. Objective morality doesn't exist imo

That's fine. But I thought you were asking about what God, as revealed by Christianity, might have to say on the matter rather then your own personal take on morality.

As it stands, I wonder if reason informs morality or if it is the other way around. I also wonder how experience play into morality when we cast moral judgements on deeds that lay outside the realm of our experience.

Also, I never stated my opinions on the direction of your moral compass. how could I? I don't know anything about you. But let me assure you that I think it is entirely conceivable that you as a non-Chirstian are a kinder and more caring person then myself, a Christian.

welkin wrote: »

2) If being a "good" person is satisfied I can't really see the need for any other criteria. Nit scanty not getting in upstairs cause you weren't baptised/confirmed/administered last rites or whatever.

Again, I though your were asking a question, not stating how you think it should be so. Christianity preaches a deceptively simple message - we have all missed the mark and are condemned by our sinful nature (I think any history book should provide ample supporting evidence for this claim). Moreover, it says that we cannot save ourselves or improve our standing in God's eyes by being moral, piteous and super swell people. Jesus made it clear to the religious elite that the religious laws they practised were not sufficient and that it is only through him that we are saved.

Again, as I say often here, you don't have to believe any of this to actually understand what claims are being made.

welkin wrote: »

i do not practice any Catholic doctrines and rituals whatsoever.

Well, neither do I. Nor do non-Catholic Christians.

welkin wrote: »

I'm just trying to figure out where I stand from a Catholic or Christian view. I know Dante said all noble pagans like Plato are on the first floor of hell but it's Hell nonetheless. But is Dante even taken seriously by Theologians?

Dante's Inferno should be read for what it is, a poem. It's not a theological work (though undoubtedly he was attempting to make some theological points). You might benefit from listening to this lecture series. It's long but it provides an excellent introduction to the central themes that run throughout the Bible.

Zombrex · 24-06-2013 11:06PM

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

No offence, but this tread smacks of a tell-me-I'm-going-to-hell-so-I-can-be-annoyed-you-told-me-I'm-going-to-hell threads.

According to most Christian denominations nearly all humans are deserving of hell because nearly all humans have fallen short of God (ie sinned)

Christians (of which I am not one) believe that Jesus took the punishment for this sin on himself so that it would not be directed to humans. Humans can then repent and accept Jesus' gift of salvation.

If you think being told you are going to hell means that a Christian is telling you that he/she thinks you are a bad person compared to other Christians then that is a misunderstanding of what most Christian churches teach.

But ultimately as a non-believer none of this should really matter that much to you.

Akrasia · 25-06-2013 09:33AM

From my catholic education, I was always told that whether we went to heaven or not depended on whether or not we had been following the catholic sacraments.
If we had sinned but had gone to confession and been forgiven these sins, then they no longer count as a barrier to salvation, however, if we died without confessing and being forgiven, then we could go to hell or limbo depending on how severe the sins were.

This means that no matter how nice you are, you're not getting to heaven unless you obey the sacraments. This means Baptism, Communion, Confirmation, Confession, Marriage Holy
Orders (not applicable to most) and the Last Rites (annointing of the sick)

If you're 'living in sin' (eg having sex outside of marriage) you're not going to get into heaven unless you decide on your death-bed to repent and give confession for your sins

I always thought this was very unfair for people who died suddenly. You could be a murderer who is dying slowly of cancer and has time feel frightened and genuinely sorry for his sins and can repent and be saved, or you could be a good person with children outside of marriage who gets hit by a bus and doesn't get last rites or a chance to go to confession and she/he gets a one way ticket to damnation.

This is just one of the many injustices that caused me to reject the idea of the catholic God as was taught to me growing up.

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-06-2013 01:02PM

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

on short...yes

ILoveGuinness · 25-06-2013 07:15PM

In response to the OP, I personally think it's pretty clear cut. Yes. You are going to hell. As a non-believer, you have not accepted Christ, which is basically question number 1 when ya get to the gates.

Benny_Cake · 25-06-2013 08:36PM

Mod note: I've moved some of the discussion over to the Atheism/Existence of God megathread as the bulk of the discussion seems to be going that way. Let's try and keep this focused on hell (and what Christians think hell is) specifically - thanks.

JoeB- · 01-07-2013 01:51PM

Some posters here are suggesting that there is such a thing as 'objective morality' Several posters have suggested it.

There is no such thing.

I will give the example of slavery. It was both practiced and considered moral in the bible and in biblical times. It is neither practiced nor considered moral today.

In a world of objective morality slavery would either be moral or immoral for all time. I would point out that it is self evidently true that if morality can change through the ages then it is not objective. So our views on slavery have changed, and what was once considered moral is now considered immoral. Hence no objective morality,.. in other words all morality is subjective. I can give many examples, from different cultures and from different times.

Catholics or Christians may believe they are operating under a fixed and unchanging morality but I'd suggest (and have backed it up with evidence) that they are mistaken. The fact that morality can change is a strong point against the existence of a God who claims to offer an unchanging morality.

tommy2bad · 01-07-2013 02:52PM

JoeBallantine wrote: »

Some posters here are suggesting that there is such a thing as 'objective morality' Several posters have suggested it.

There is no such thing.

I will give the example of slavery. It was both practiced and considered moral in the bible and in biblical times. It is neither practiced nor considered moral today.

In a world of objective morality slavery would either be moral or immoral for all time. I would point out that it is self evidently true that if morality can change through the ages then it is not objective. So our views on slavery have changed, and what was once considered moral is now considered immoral. Hence no objective morality,.. in other words all morality is subjective. I can give many examples, from different cultures and from different times.

Catholics or Christians may believe they are operating under a fixed and unchanging morality but I'd suggest (and have backed it up with evidence) that they are mistaken. The fact that morality can change is a strong point against the existence of a God who claims to offer an unchanging morality.

By enlarge I agree with you, I'm not so sure God offers an unchanging morality, I think it's more that we suppose that as God is unchanging then anything from Him must also be unchanging.
The non sequitur their is assuming that morality comes from God in the first place.

santing · 01-07-2013 11:44PM

The OP could be answered by a parallel story from the New Testament:

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 19:16-23, ESV)

Although this relates to a rich young man, he clearly had great morals and a good standard of life - the Lord Jesus doesn't dispute it. What the Lord requires of him is that he gives it all up and come, follow me. In the end if there is anything more important in our life than following Christ, we are not truly a Christian.

Geomy · 02-07-2013 12:07AM

I don't think it's best to ask Christians whether you are going to hell or not...
If you are a believer only God can decide that, not his followers.

homer911 · 02-07-2013 07:43AM

Geomy wrote: »

I don't think it's best to ask Christians whether you are going to hell or not...
If you are a believer only God can decide that, not his followers.

If you cant ask Christians, who can you ask? There is quite a difference between asking the question and someone "judging you" without you asking the question. I think its fair to say that these answers could all be prefixed with "It's my understanding, based on my knowledge of the bible, that.. "

The problem for Christians is knowing that so many wont be going to heaven, and its up to us to do something about it. At least the OP is not deluding him/herself. We cannot feed the delusion.

looksee · 02-07-2013 08:07AM

The existence of hell is a belief. If you believe in it then you can create hell for yourself by imaginings and contemplation of the dire consequences of not doing what you believe you should to stay out. The other side is that you won't be going to heaven either, since that is also a belief; presumably 'you' just cease to exist, or get recycled.

If you do not believe in hell, or indeed anything else that cannot be proved to your satisfaction, then there is no way you can force yourself to believe. All the arguments about who said what, or what God says also come under the umbrella of whether you believe or not and do not get you any further forward.

So really its up to you, either go with your current thinking - and of course not accepting Catholic doctrine has little to do with a belief in an after-life - or become an insurance policy Christian, or join another religion and accept their beliefs.

sligoface · 02-07-2013 08:43AM

OP you might find some interesting info if you research near death experiences, nderf org has stories from people of all different faiths, no faiths, etc. Spoiler alert: they rarely experience anything hellish, mostly good vibes, dead relatives, an objective, non-judemental life review, some get to hang with Jesus for a while before being given a choice to stay or go back to their human life.
As a gnostic, christian I search for my own truth though I never will know if I'm right. Even when speaking to the disciples close to him, Jesus talked in veiled parables quite often, so there is no way to know everything, and I think that is kind of the point. But why sacrifice yourself through crucifixion to expunge the sins of humankind and then send them all there anyway for being sinners?

homer911 · 02-07-2013 10:19AM

sligoface wrote: »

But why sacrifice yourself through crucifixion to expunge the sins of humankind and then send them all there anyway for being sinners?

The Bible makes it pretty clear that the first part of your statement is correct, but not the second, at least its not stating the whole truth

santing · 02-07-2013 10:37AM

sligoface wrote: »

But why sacrifice yourself through crucifixion to expunge the sins of humankind and then send them all there anyway for being sinners?

That's called love at God's side and freewill on mankind's ... He loves you so much that there is no obstacle anywhere to be saved ... and He loves you so much that He is not forcing you to be saved, He respects your decision.

Am I going to hell?

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