Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

eviltwin wrote: »

Yes, I'm sick of having to correct people on that. I don't know anyone who is pro choice who is "pro abortion", give us a bit of credit, we all know that abortions are not easy and in an ideal world we'd all love it if every pregnancy was wanted and no woman had to go through it but hey this is the real world where things go wrong, people make mistakes, mothers and babies aren't always healthy.

We're certainly not promoting abortion or encouraging it. :mad:

Your guilty of doing nearly exactly the same thing though when you talk about people being anti-choice though (which a quick search will show you do)

You know yourself that the pro-life camps motivation isn't a desire to restrict freedoms but rather a different interpretation of rights/what it is to be human, however it sounds better to make it seem like their goal is the restriction of womans freedoms, rather than this simply being the biproduct of their desires, the same way your desire for increased abortion rights isn't about encouraging abortion but it would increase the number as a bi-product.

In short don't complain about polarizing the issue when you do the same yourself!
(I won't get thanked for this post though)

Justin1982 wrote: »

Ok, I have to be man enough to admit I cant win this argument I've gone a bit off topic but only because I was trying to highlight that I believed some of the information given to me was questionable. I was originally asking how many Irish women travel abroad for abortions. That was answered satisfactorily but I think it still doesnt reflect the real number. I also asked how many abortions were carried out in Ireland underground. The answer I got was close to zero. I was really trying to question that figure. Fair enough, official figures will probably reflect DIY abortion is close to zero. But I am just trying to highlight that the "real" figure could be a lot higher even though there is no way to know exactly. But I wont press the issue further or I'll upset too many people :rolleyes:.

And I think my detour is relevant to the OPs thread and the abortion debate going on at the moment. The main reason I think non liberal anti-abortion laws are complete rubbish in their current form is because of the sheer amount of Irish (and non Irish living in Ireland) women already having abortions. Personally I'd like to know what the real number is. The real number is Y + X + Z, where X = The reported number of Irish women, Y = Unknown number of Irish women having abortions abroad and Z = Number of women having abortions in Ireland.

Y and Z can only be calculated via handwaving arguments and possibly some sort of statistical analysis.

In any of the abortion debates I've seen, its pretty ridiculous listening to middle aged old conservative pruddish farts, who are meant to be representing the people, pushing their own twisted Catholic anti abortion agenda. You can clearly tell from listening to the doctors, politicians and psychologists that they are completely anti abortion. ****ting on about how abortion is not necessary and there is always an alternative to it. Even if that was the case, I dont hear any of these muppets quoting the real abortion figures or try to even get a grasp of how common real abortion is amongst Irish women.

As for my opinion on abortion........If my girlfriend gets pregnant, its really up to her.......Men should really shut the **** up......Women carry the risk (even if it is small in the modern day) so they carry the decision.........All options and support should be available to women........Genercide is possibly the only thing I think that has to be guarded against in abortion law. Whether thats possible or not I dont know.

That's much better, thank you Nice to hear your opinion, and I for one welcome it. I think you have thought this post through and it's on topic. Upped your game nicely, cheers Justin. :cool:

eviltwin wrote: »

Actually that's true I am as guilty. However I do believe that there are people out there who are just anti choice, how else do you explain people who think its okay to allow abortion in the case of rape for example? Is that "life" any less valid than that conceived in a consentual situation? In those cases, to me, it seems to be about restricting choice to certain women who aren't seen as deserving of an abortion and that to me has feck all to do with life.

I would accept that as a fairly logical argument, IF you didn't refer to groups such as Youth Defence and the Catholic Church which are against abortion in ALL circumstances as being Anti-Choice and so can not be accused of that intellectual dishonesty, since you do, your point doesn't hold.

Tigger99 wrote: »

I've listened to a lot of debates about abortion and I certainly don't think all the docs, psychiatrists and politicians are anti-abortion. Nor do I get the impression they are all muppets.

Its had enough when misinformed posts raise heckles but worse when they start scare mongering.

Good point Tigger - that's exactly why we need to stick to facts, whatever our opinions are. Justin has made some good points above, but you have rightly called him on tarring entire professions with the same brush.

Justin1982 wrote: »

I dont think I said "all".......Pretty sure I qualified it with "In any of the abortion debates I've seen" :P

And yes I stand by my remark. I've seen too many doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists state that suicidal pregnant women should not be allowed to have an abortion if they want one, being unreasonably vocal against all abortion and ignore the fact that a lot of women are accessing abortion via other means. They are largely involved in the making of the abortion laws which result from the hearings that were carried out so they have to take the responsibility when thousands of women in Ireland travel abroad for abortion.

While you are right, in that certain professions were greatly involved in the making of the abortion laws in 1983 (the last time any laws were made and legislated for before this one), the common denominator was their membership of the Catholic lobby group PLAC (or Pro Life Amendment Campaign - more in link at end of this post) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland .

This was at a particularly difficult point in Irish politics, with 3 governments in 18 months and they struck at exactly the right time, with the ultimate focus of making abortion illegal in Ireland within the constitution. It worked. On the back of a people not yet exposed to the massive moral double-standards that the RCC can be seen today to hold, the 8th amendment was rail-roaded through a very shaky and shaken government and legislated for by the people.

Many of the main Irish pro-life lobbyists today are heavily involved and indeed some are second generation PLAC who have had much help (including financially) from right wing christian fundamentalist/pro-life organisations in the US into how to lobby (read "threaten") people/politicians into this purist, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual dogma that they are so extreme about. Some Irish politicians have had trips to the US paid for by these organisations for training purposes. Guess what? These politicians have not lost their seats. In fact, it is not even common knowledge.

Anyone who argues against abortion on the grounds of religious or moral reasons with the aim of preventing all women having any access to abortion whilst ignoring the fact that a lot of women in Ireland are having abortions is a muppet in my opinion.

While I firmly agree with you here, calling anyone a muppet (or what I would like to call them ) is counteractive to debate, as it does not constitute an argument. Much better to call them on their omission of facts, or misuse of facts, with counter facts.

I'm sure there is plenty of doctors/politicians/psychiatrists out there who are pro choice but I havent seen any being too vocal in support of a liberal regime which would mean women in Ireland dont have to travel abroad or consider other means for termination.

And if there was such a large body of intelligent liberal minded politicians, doctors and psychiatrists in the country then the laws would not be so retarded on the subject of abortion and this thread would not exist.

This country is only beginning to see the wood for the trees even now, and it's up to people like you who are well fcuked off with how we got here at all, to educate themselves in order to inform others. The reason that there is not a large body of intelligent liberal minded politicians, doctors and psychiatrists in the country is that the RCC has been patron of just about the entire Health Service since the inception of the Irish State. How long do you think an openly pro-choice doctor would have held an internship in a Catholic hospital 20 years ago? Wouldn't have got one in the first place, is the answer that springs to mind.

There are new organisations called Doctors for Choice Ireland, and Medical Students for Choice, both on facebook and elsewhere. Support them in their uphill battle to "come out" in response to people's reproductive choice, if this is an Ireland you would like to see. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Doctors-For-Choice-Ireland/522714117761585 https://www.facebook.com/msfc.ie

Here is a link to a particularly revealing article from 1982 which shows what the PLAC were all about (and what their progeny are still about) and how they pushed for the 8th amendment that we are still so restricted by today: http://politico.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5472:cover-story-backlash-and-blackmail&catid=222:society&Itemid=1245

"they view their efforts not just as securing an all-time constitutional prohibition on abortion but as the start of a moral crusade against those liberalising trends in Irish society which have led to the legallisation of the sale of contraceptives, sex education, a greater public willingness to permit divorce, sexual permissiveness, the breakdown of marriage and an abandonment of formal religion"

eviltwin wrote: »

If I've done that in the past fair enough. Certain groups are consistant and maybe their focus is on saving lives but their movement does remove the choice an Irish woman has re her pregnancy. They might not have that as their core aim but its a natural conclusion. When your choices are limited as much as you might want to try and empathise with those who want to keep them limited and their pov its hard not to get angry.

And the natural conclusion to being truly pro-choice is to have an increase in abortion (This point can be challenged but unless someone can show me evidence that increased ease of access reduces rates I think the point stands). *. The pro-life side consider their stories just as empathetic and feel they have just as much right to be angry as you do, does it make either side more right. NO.

I'm not having a personal go at you btw, its just the use of both those terms annoys me and due to boards.ie demographics I see anti-choice more, and since the pro-choice movement tends to perceive themselves as intellectually superior to the pro-life side it also stands out more when they use words that are a

kylith wrote: »

concious ploy on their part to vilify the pro-life side. Nasty, underhanded tactic.

word subsituted for point


* I would accuse pro-life groups of hypocrisy in that they tend not to big on preventing unwanted pregnancy and sex ed, a sure fire way of reducing abortion rates!

Pro choice are pro choice till they reach their 12 week cut off. Then they are as anti choice as anyone else.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

You know the argument you state only applies to a risk during pregnancy argument, if you consider a detriment to ongoing health argument you could argue that men should also have a say.

Why is Gendercide (I presume that what you mean) something to be avoided, if you are as truly pro-choice as you state surely every womans decision is equally valid

ps If you truly believe that woman should decide does that mean you would abstain from any constitutional vote on the matter, after all , Men should really shut the fcuk up :rolleyes:

You are refering to the possibility that the father of the foetus suffers some sort of mental stress due to the loss of the foetus? Possibly there is some men like that. I'd be of the opinion that they should pay more attention and have sex with a woman who would keep the baby if she got pregnant rather than whining about a woman not keeping a child that she most likely was trying to prevent happening in the first place. I think the risks to the mother and sacrifices she makes have much more weight than any risk to the father.

As for gendercide, a mother who would keep having an abortion (possibly multiple times) when she finds out she is having a girl or a boy (as happens quiet a lot in China) would test the conscience of even the most liberal minded person. I know chickens are killed for me to eat but I dont see a need to kill more chickens than I can eat. And creating a large imbalance in both genders is probably a recipe for a large chunk of society thats pretty damn depressed with neither a single male or a single female in a village. I've grown up in a village where there was a major excess of men over women in my age group. It doesnt make for a happy upbringing

Yes men should shut up and shouldnt be allowed to vote on the topic or be allowed to shape the laws around abortion. I'd be happy to leave the vote only to women. When it comes to shaping the laws via government, as is happening at the moment, men will generally sway the law in their favour as they have the monopoly on power. Even pro choice men like myself shouldnt be allowed into making the laws or be allowed to vote.