Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

kylith wrote: »

Exactly. While I'm aware that my dog is an animal a decision to end her suffering would not be because she is an animal that's broken and should be got rid of; it's about making sure that the ones you love the most suffer the least. The idea that it's somehow preferable to leave a human, especially a newborn infant who has no other experience of the world, dying in agony is repugnant to me. What it says to me is that in some people's eyes humans are somehow worth less than a dog, that we should make them suffer more.

"We ended our dogs agony because it's an animal, but this human baby born without kidneys should have its life prolonged for as long as we can so it can suffer as much as possible. Because human life is sacred." Well, I'm sorry but imo that opinion is just sick.


Her mother would probably be a candidate for Dignitas*, but then loveisdivine would be prosecuted for helping her to end her pain.

*Were that loveisdivine's mother's wish.

I'm going to deviate a little bit from the main topic but it is related. One of my problems with RC is the glorification of pain and suffering, starting with images of the crucifixion all over primary schools. I find it masochistic and violent. I know it is central to our civilisation and is at the core of our wonderful tradition in Art History, but to me it is the kernal at which the brainwashing is cultivated and grown and does not belong in primary schools. It is essentially an image of the death penalty, a formal execution.

I do believe in anesthesia and that includes if an abortion is to take place.

While I love a good meat dinner, I can no longer stomach the idea of veal or lamb either, or of any kind of painful sadistic death where we have the means to make it painless.

Pain is a deeply Catholic virtue.

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Genuinely interested: Why would you suspect diy abortion rates are due to a lot of immigration from Eastern Europe?

My theory is thus......Abortion is possibly quiet common in Eastern europe, or where ever abortion is legal. Knowledge about how to carry out an abortion is probably more freely available and a lot more people are trained in how to carry out abortions........Therefore I am suspecting a flow of this knowledge along with immigration.......Not questioning their morals or anything, just the extent of the flow of knowledge alongside immigration

Alas for all I know abortion is not legal in eastern europe so I could be way off the mark

Also since prostitution is a lot more prevalent in eastern europe and I suspect that the numbers of eastern european prostitutes working in Ireland the last ten years has increased dramatically. I suspect that a lot of prostitutes end up pregnant and have abortions. So I'm presuming that a lot of these abortions are carried out DIY or via organized nurses who worked in abortion clinics in eastern europe.
Yes again my ignorance of these issues is possibly very high. But spinkle a bit of pregnancy in with organized prostitution rings, then it seems like a recipe for disaster abortion wise, especially if they are mixed up with criminal gangs.

Justin1982 wrote: »

My theory is thus......Abortion is possibly quiet common in Eastern europe, or where ever abortion is legal. Knowledge about how to carry out an abortion is probably more freely available and a lot more people are trained in how to carry out abortions........Therefore I am suspecting a flow of this knowledge along with immigration.......Not questioning their morals or anything, just the extent of the flow of knowledge alongside immigration

Alas for all I know abortion is not legal in eastern europe so I could be way off the mark

Also since prostitution is a lot more prevalent in eastern europe and I suspect that the numbers of eastern european prostitutes working in Ireland the last ten years has increased dramatically. I suspect that a lot of prostitutes end up pregnant and have abortions. So I'm presuming that a lot of these abortions are carried out DIY or via organized nurses who worked in abortion clinics in eastern europe.
Yes again my ignorance of these issues is possibly very high. But spinkle a bit of pregnancy in with organized prostitution rings, then it seems like a recipe for disaster abortion wise, especially if they are mixed up with criminal gangs.

Mad theory. Sounds like you don't like Eastern European people. Nothing factual.

username123 wrote: »

Mad theory. Sounds like you don't like Eastern European people. Nothing factual.

Its nothing to do with not liking anyone :P

But I doubt that too many Irish nurses are trained in how to give abortions so I doubt that they are involved too much in underground abortions.

If nurses who are trained come from a country where they are trained in abortion then I suspect that they could be involved in underground abortion, particularly if they are involved with a dodgy element of an immigrant community.

I'm not saying that Eastern Europeans are dodgy.......But I'm sure that a section of every society has its black spots unfortunately

Justin1982 wrote: »

Its nothing to do with not liking anyone :P

But I doubt that too many Irish nurses are trained in how to give abortions so I doubt that they are involved too much in underground abortions.

If nurses who are trained come from a country where they are trained in abortion then I suspect that they could be involved in underground abortion, particularly if they are involved with a dodgy element of an immigrant community.

I'm not saying that Eastern Europeans are dodgy.......But I'm sure that a section of every society has its black spots unfortunately

I think someone (Morag?) already answered that for you. It would be foolhardy to be performing surgical abortion procedures here and probably unnecessarily risky. I haven't heard of any cases anyway.

It amazes me how these people say that killing foetuses is wrong, but once these babies come into the world and go through serious problems in their lives (bullying, mental illness, abuse, ect.) then they are completely ignored or not fully helped.

They have no right to decide if a mother should have an abortion, pro-lifers can go on about how these mothers will regret their abortions,
but there are also some mothers who regret giving up their babies for adoption, or some mothers who regret having children at all, therefore putting the child who did not ask to be born though pain.

And anyway, sending Enda letters in blood? Do they really think doing something like that will make them look good in anyway possible?

Obliq wrote: »

I do not understand your focus on European women and prostitution? You are THAT misinformed about Irish women's difficulties in accessing abortion services (numbers involved, etc.), you'd think the place to start your research would be with that, not with other EU women. Why the focus? It's a good bit off topic too.

Ok, I'll try make you happy. Lets call them "women who were not born in Ireland". Anyway, I didnt know that there was an abortion pill so I was presuming that any DIY abortions would have to be surgical to some extent. My focus on foreign women is because trafficing of women into Ireland to work in the sex industry is pretty high. 200+ were known to have been trafficed into Ireland in 2006 so I would imagine the real number is a lot higher. Sexual abuse is probably quiet common and so too would pregnancy I'd imagine. As they are probably under the control of organized gangs then I'd imagine that its not too likely that such women use the traditional crisis pregnancy services that Irish women would so figures are a lot more likely to fall through the net of normal data collection. And I doubt criminal gangs involved trafficing are posting their statistics liberally on the web no matter how much I "research".

Obliq wrote: »

I think someone (Morag?) already answered that for you. It would be foolhardy to be performing surgical abortion procedures here and probably unnecessarily risky. I haven't heard of any cases anyway.

I think it would be fool hardy for gangs involved in trafficing to spend loads of money sending women under their control abroad for abortions and after care counselling. Men controlling a lot of trafficed women are probably abusing them as well. But then again I'm probably wrong, men involved in trafficing large numbers of women are probably gentlemen, waiting on the trafficed ladies every need.

wonderfulname wrote: »

Very, very high. I really don't understand how people can come to conclusions they deem valid based entirely on their own musings and half forgotten observations. None of the assumptions your theory is based on hold true, I could put time into digging up references and disproving what you have said, but it seems ridiculous to do when you haven't attempted to qualify your musings yourself.

Prostitution in Ireland and trafficing of women into Irish sex industry is pretty common. I doubt there is any accurate figures out there as its underground. But its common enough for a large anti prostitution campaign to be run in the Republic the last few years. I dont really feel like I have to justify my claim that the abuse of women in the sex industry is fairly common and a lot of them get pregnant and have abortions. Its a bit like trying to convince Catholics that priests were abusing children in the 90's. Believe what you like but I'd be happily shocked if it wasnt the case.

Obliq wrote: »

Oh FFS. :mad: What part of "You are THAT misinformed about Irish women's difficulties in accessing abortion services (numbers involved, etc.), you'd think the place to start your research would be with that, not with other EU women" did you not understand?

Don't mean to back-seat moderate here, but I'm not on this thread to talk about prostitution. The thread title is Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

I'm sure if you run along to After Hours you'll find a perfectly lovely thread about your particular bias and you'll fit in just fine. I haven't been here in the Ladies' Lounge for long, but the regulars here seem to prefer fact to fiction.

I think there is a valuable point to be considered. As Ireland becomes more multicultural, to what extent can it impose strictly Catholic morality on its citizens?

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think there is a valuable point to be considered. As Ireland becomes more multicultural, to what extent can it impose strictly Catholic morality on its citizens?

Well that's a point I've been debating many times in many forums and with many people over the past 20 years or so. I fail to see where this Justin person makes that point though, so could you perhaps link to it?

Morag wrote: »

Ireland has always been multicultural with people who are non christian and it has been disgusting how the rights of people have been trampled over when the State was founded and the RC Church was allowed to take control of schools and hospitals and the enshrined inequality which was the Irish Constitution from it's very inception.

I received a letter from a government office, responding to a query I had about education, and they also used the word "enshrined." It's not the Torah or the Ten Commandments. I find that language weird.

My views on abortion are not straightforward, but I agree with you on the whole about the founding of the state. Independence in Ireland brought a about other slaveries. It makes it hard to think it was such a good thing, especially for Irish women.

To me, when you celebrate 1916, you are also celebrating the theocracy, the magdalene laundries, the abortion laws, and the treating of the constitution like a sacred cow. The whole thing needs to be rewritten.

Sorry for going OT there, I just see the abortionissue as part of a much bigger hydra monster.