Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Why did Phil Hogan stop 5 seperate planning enquiries?

2»

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Very good article outlining the previous status of these inquiries and how they progressed in the previous government up to current:
    http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2012/06/how-could-any-government-seriously-claim-that-mahon-planning-abuses-confined-to-dublin/

    It seems there's little reason to have any faith in the current government doing any credible investigation of this, is there any room for direct investigative journalism with these planning authorities, seeking out whistleblowers and gathering/publishing information? (effectively doing a journalistic investigation instead of an inevitably whitewashed government one)

    I know journalistic investigations would be difficult through not having any inside access to people/information, but is there much potential room for seeking out whistleblowers and the like, who could pass on information and documents?


    Personally, I have very little faith in the ability of government and the primary journalistic outlets to uncover (or even have the desire to do so) any specific instances of corruption here, so I wonder if it may be more manageable to gather individuals on a volunteer basis (budding investigative journalists, maybe even established ones with a principled history), to try and uncover more of this directly as unpaid work.

    If something like this could be organized, with an effective set of investigative volunteers, it would not be at risk of being shut down at the whim of some minister or (when it comes to traditional media) other vested interests; the main thing to worry about would be people involved being subject to legal or other threats.

    One big downside of any journalistic outlet like that, is it may be subject to libel for anything it publishes, thus would probably need significant financial help for that; could probably partner up with a more credible news organization (probably not one from Ireland) and publish through them with legal backing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    MadsL wrote: »
    ...and Ireland remains morally as well as financially bankrupt. Shame on Hogan, he was spoonfed instances of highly questionable planning decisions and shat himself at the thought of having to turn in his own. FG just put the cherry on the top of sentiment that they are just a dodgy as FF.

    Pathetic lack of backbone.

    I will bet most people in every County know of several instances where corrupt planning was granted and re-zoning of lands. Hogan downgraded full external investigations to internal reviews....to be carried out by no doubt, the same people who were under investigation. Its is no wonder they all gave themselves a clean bill of health. Disgusting, and so much for FG and its clean politics. The rotten apples are still in place in all the County Councils, and ready to go again should the opportunities arise.

    Hogan will not be getting my vote in future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    One big downside of any journalistic outlet like that, is it may be subject to libel for anything it publishes, thus would probably need significant financial help for that; could probably partner up with a more credible news organization (probably not one from Ireland) and publish through them with legal backing.

    Kind of ignoring three bias the media have that is the property supplement aren't you.

    That is the real downside and RTE won't get involved for the same reason the ESRI is pulling reports from their website.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    ^^ I don't follow; what bias am I missing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    ^^ I don't follow; what bias am I missing?

    Well if they get advertising money from their property sections they aren't going to investigate corruption in that area are they?

    Most Irish newspapers would love a new property bubble.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Nemo iudex in causa sua. This Latin phrase, which translates as "no man should be a judge in his own cause", is a fundamental principle of natural justice. Except in Ireland.

    Housing and Planning Minister Jan O'Sullivan published the long-awaited Planning Review Report last week. The Labour Party has successfully positioned itself as the ethical watchdog of Fine Gael, or has it?

    Strangely enough, here's a good article in the Indo.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/elaine-byrne-a-system-which-looks-after-itself-3140343.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    thebman wrote: »
    Well if they get advertising money from their property sections they aren't going to investigate corruption in that area are they?

    Most Irish newspapers would love a new property bubble.
    Ah, missed this post. Yes I don't hold any faith in any Irish or corporate journalistic outlets to investigate any of this, I advocate a more independent group of investigative journalists working on a non-profit basis, and getting their final reports published widely by multiple news sources (not limited to Ireland).

    Something like this, some kind of free-from-influence journalistic outlet, is sorely needed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    My house was built in a field that was knicknamed "frog marsh" by the locals (only found that out recently).

    Its flooded 4 out of the 6 years I have lived here.

    I can goto the planning authority and get all sort of information/reading on why my estate was zoned for land . . You know what, I probabley wouldnt understand all the Bullsh*t jargon in it and even if I did, what do I do ? take it to the local garda and say, "I call bullsh*t?"

    My estate shouldnt of been built (my local FG representitive said this to me and said "whoever zoned that land should be shot") . I dont believe they would say this publically, especially if its their parties policy to not concern itself with why certain areas were zoned for building . .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Could you try to get a newspaper, news outlet or current affairs program to report on that?
    That situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a journalist to take a look into and write about, or a program to do a story on.

    Hell it'd be something even for a solicitor to start a case on, so would be worth seeing if you could get your local community looking into legal action against both the local authority (for the planning approval) and the property developers.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Could you try to get a newspaper, news outlet or current affairs program to report on that?
    That situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a journalist to take a look into and write about, or a program to do a story on.

    Hell it'd be something even for a solicitor to start a case on, so would be worth seeing if you could get your local community looking into legal action against both the local authority (for the planning approval) and the property developers.

    Good luck finding an actual journalist in Ireland. Most seem content to recycle press releases.

    “Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.” George Orwell


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    :) Yes much of journalism today is just stenography unfortunately, but there must be some kind of proper investigative journalism surviving today? (even stuff done on a non-profit or volunteer basis, even just blogs)

    If there truly isn't anything of the sort, I wonder how difficult it would be to set up something like that as a non-profit; everyone can see it's sorely needed, and I'm sure there are people who would be willing to expend some personal time voluntarily, to investigate some of these issues.

    I mean, not far fetched to think that the experience and reputation gained from that, could get you work from an overseas journalistic outlet to publish with them; I'd imagine the Guardian wouldn't be a bad one to look to, as they do have some journalists focusing on Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Could you try to get a newspaper, news outlet or current affairs program to report on that?
    That situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a journalist to take a look into and write about, or a program to do a story on.

    Hell it'd be something even for a solicitor to start a case on, so would be worth seeing if you could get your local community looking into legal action against both the local authority (for the planning approval) and the property developers.

    Part of the problem is that they have a bullsh*t answer for everything . . we had a supposed once in 50 year storm one year and the next we were promised it was once in a century . .

    They did some works on the stream out front so they will also say, thats fixed things up (which it hasnt). We have had the OPW out a few times trying to "fix" the problem . . There was a fire engine out here couple of months ago pumping water out of the front stream that was flooding again. .

    Whenever there is heavy rain and a high tide we are screwed becaue they have to close off the stream out front because there will be a surge from the sea! We are near the end of the stream so we get water in from other areas when its heavy so the water starts to fill up the estate . . Maybe the next time it floods I will take pictures and try to get some notice . .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Ya gathering evidence like that would help alright; perhaps if you get together with the local community, you can fund getting in a independent surveyor who can evaluate the area and do a report?

    Would give a better set of options on what can be done; seeing a solicitor for starters may be good for advice, and if there's room for something to be done legally, could collectively have the local community (all those affected) work with solicitors/a law firm.

    I may be overly optimistic in what can be done, but can't hurt to explore these options, especially if the costs can be spread between people in the local area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    :) If there truly isn't anything of the sort, I wonder how difficult it would be to set up something like that as a non-profit; everyone can see it's sorely needed, and I'm sure there are people who would be willing to expend some personal time voluntarily, to investigate some of these issues.


    You mean some charity, run by volunteers, who would issue reports based on their findings?
    *cough* www.antaisce.org

    You see what happens, local authorities squeak, the department dodges the issues and says that because 5,000 applications for a domestic house extensions and loft conversions were not appealed to ABP, then the 23 highly questionable decisions the Local Authority made on major developments are not significant as there were 5,000 applications that did not get appealed.

    To show what a charade this 'review process' was here is the process they followed.

    1. An Taisce and others including TDs made complaints in respect of the councils and provide a comprehensive dossier of questionable planing decisions (Example for Dublin - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,30481,en.pdf)
    2. Council leaders and City/County managers bleat to the press about the role of An Taisce.
    3. The Dept of the Env write to the councils "Is this true?"
    4. The Councils write back "No, we do a lot of planning. Our planning is good."
    5. The Dept says we better take a look, we are coming for a visit next Monday.
    6. Councils say "Grand, we will put the kettle on."
    7. The Dept investigators get shown a room with lots of planning files "We do a lot of planning you know"
    8. Investigators leave and issue a report that says "They do a lot of planning you know"
    9. Press gives column inches to City/Council saying "Our planning is great, sure nothing wrong here, no idea why the county is full of ghost estates and the city full of empty tall buildings. An Taisce should be taken out and shot.

    In essence, the Department have legitimised compromised planning in the same way that a barrister might argue for that a drunk driver who killed two pedestrians should be let off as he has driven safely for 25 years.

    I can see no evidence in this report that the department even opened the planning files concerned. I note then that despite assurances in the report; that Appendix 8 contains detail of the site methodology used, this has not been published. Indeed only Appendix 1 - 4 has been published on the website.

    There are some truly bizarre "investigative techniques" used; This from the Planning Review Report
    In April 2012 the Department carried out site visits to each of the seven planning authorities during which in depth discussions were held with senior officials on the issues involved (see Appendix 8 on the principles of site visit methodology employed). On foot of those discussions, planning authorities were asked to respond to a series of specific queries put in writing by the Department. The authorities were also asked, having regard to their practical experience, to make recommendations themselves for the enhancement of the planning system, including in relation to any actions taken by them on foot of lessons that may have been learned in the cases in question.

    So Local Authorities are basically asked how would you improve, and then the report makes recommendations based on what the LA say???

    Utter, utter whitewash.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 179 ✭✭Bagenal


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I was disgusted to learn that. Carlow COCO needs to be investigated. Maybe there are too many dodgy FG councillors in Carlow that would prove embarrassing for Mr. Hogan.
    Mr.Micro, I'm with you on the need for an investigation into the planning department of Carlow Co Co though I wouldn't say any one party was any dirtier than the other. Some crazy decisions were made in the last few years.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    MadsL wrote: »
    ...
    Interesting, thanks :) I do not follow this stuff in detail, so it is good to get a synopsis like that.

    Is there not room for independent legal action against the local authorities in some cases (where people were directly affected by bad or corrupt planning), and for seeking of whistleblowers within local authorities which can directly uncover specific cases of corrupt planning?

    While they can whitewash the overall process with 'internal investigations', uncovering specific instances of corrupt planning and highlighting that, may force a much stronger public and political impetus to act.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,022 ✭✭✭conorhal



    At a guess I'd say that it's because, despite the fact that FF were the de-facto 'natural party of power' in government throughout the boom, it was FG that actually gained control of a significant proportion of the CoCo's over that period, Dublin for example has been FG/Labor at a local level for quite some time.
    In other words, there's more dirt in their own closet for an investigation to uncover (bourne out by the fact that most of the recent corruption cases have all involved FG party hacks) then there is in the closets of their political rivals, so why score an own goal for the opposition?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Bagenal wrote: »
    Mr.Micro, I'm with you on the need for an investigation into the planning department of Carlow Co Co though I wouldn't say any one party was any dirtier than the other. Some crazy decisions were made in the last few years.

    Absolutely. My experience was that there was cross party co-operation when it came to planning and zoning, they all had a common interest, money. Yet Carlow CoCo, like the others gave itself a clean bill of health.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    The planning review has effectively let Councils off the hook.
    Cork County Council welcomes the announcement by Minister Jan O'Sullivan, T.D. that the conclusion of the planning review found no substance in the complaints made by An Taisce against Cork County Council.

    In a statement the Council said: "The Planning System is one of the most transparent services provided across the public service which provides for the planning file to be available to all parties.

    "Cork County Council has over many years provided a professional and high quality service to all stakeholders who interact with the Planning Service.

    "The Council, through its management, staff and Elected Members has always sought to plan for and develop the County in accordance with sound sustainable development principles."

    "Everyone who has a part to play in the planning process needs to be mindful that planning is about people, their environment and their current and future needs not about inflexible and predetermined views."
    http://www.build.ie/construction_news.asp?newsid=146040


    Note the absurd notion of "sound sustainable development principles" at play in Cork County Council and the dig at An Taisce at the end.

    Sickening lack of honesty.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Did I hear right on the radio that PH is in Rio? As Minister for The Environment what is he doing in Rio?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Did I hear right on the radio that PH is in Rio? As Minister for The Environment what is he doing in Rio?

    Doing his job perhaps?

    http://www.uncsd2012.org/


    About the Rio+20 Conference

    At the Rio+20 Conference, world leaders, along with thousands of participants from governments, the private sector, NGOs and other groups, will come together to shape how we can reduce poverty, advance social equity and ensure environmental protection on an ever more crowded planet to get to the future we want.

    The United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development (UNCSD) is being organized in pursuance of General Assembly Resolution 64/236 (A/RES/64/236), and will take place in Brazil on 20-22 June 2012 to mark the 20th anniversary of the 1992 United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED), in Rio de Janeiro, and the 10th anniversary of the 2002 World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) in Johannesburg.

    The Rio+20 Conference It is envisaged as a Conference at the highest possible level, including Heads of State and Government or other representatives. The Conference will result in a focused political document.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I think Phil did the right thing. Fair play.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I think Phil did the right thing. Fair play.


    Right thing in relation to what? Rio or the Planning enquiries?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Interesting Development on this

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/independent-probe-ordered-into-planning-in-six-counties-29346222.html

    An independant probe into planning practices in six local authorities




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    rodento wrote: »
    Interesting Development on this

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/independent-probe-ordered-into-planning-in-six-counties-29346222.html

    An independant probe into planning practices in six local authorities



    Yes - the Donegal part of the report quashed by the High Court on foot of a complaint by an ex-planner because it failed to investigate his complaints. That has to cast doubt over the entire report - what else wasn't investigated?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 5 dacoll1


    Maybe they can confirm if planners were going on holidays with developers or not which could explain a lot of the mess that occurred. One only has to look around Donegal and in particular Downings or Inishowen to see examples of very poor decision making where planning is concerned.Then the question should be asked why these decisions were made!!!

    But unfortunately Turkeys don't vote for Chrstmas so the chances of anything being revealed is slim and the "poor" decisions will continue unabated making developers rich and destroying the countryside if the tiger comes back to life again.
    Bring back john Gormely who at least tried to clean it up unlike other ministers from the 2 main parties who are too blame anyway for the mess.
    Watch this space!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    dacoll1 wrote: »
    Maybe they can confirm if planners were going on holidays with developers or not which could explain a lot of the mess that occurred. One only has to look around Donegal and in particular Downings or Inishowen to see examples of very poor decision making where planning is concerned.Then the question should be asked why these decisions were made!!!

    But unfortunately Turkeys don't vote for Chrstmas so the chances of anything being revealed is slim and the "poor" decisions will continue unabated making developers rich and destroying the countryside if the tiger comes back to life again.
    Bring back john Gormely who at least tried to clean it up unlike other ministers from the 2 main parties who are too blame anyway for the mess.
    Watch this space!!

    the Downings area has been ruined
    used to love going up there


Advertisement