Why did Phil Hogan stop 5 seperate planning enquiries?

Drumpot

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/03/27/why-did-phil-hogan-stop-five-separate-planning-inquiries/

Why did Phil Hogan stop 5 seperate planning enquiries?

This is the kind of question that is being ignored by our absentee electorate that failed to ask similar kinds of questions of our previous government and where did that get us ?

Fool me once, shame on you. . Fool my twice, three times, four . . . . Shame on us all . .

later12

Apparently the inquiries have not been stopped, there is going to be an internal investigation.

Anyone who is interested in governmental corruption (i.e. the study of it!) ought to be eternally perturbed by two of the most horrid words that were ever placed side by side in the English language: "internal investigation".

There may well turn out to be no basis for the allegations referred to. Fantastic. But transparency is important. Corruption thrives on strongly discretionary institutions kept in check by weak, opaque institutions.

Mahon wrote a big book on this. I think there was something about it on the news.

rodento

Mahon wrote a book, yawn...

Has he proved anything beyond reasonable doubt, is infact anything in the report worth 300 mill:eek:

In Ireland we are inocent until proven guilty, nothing in the tribunal changes that

Scofflaw

rodento wrote: »

Mahon wrote a book, yawn...

Has he proved anything beyond reasonable doubt, is infact anything in the report worth 300 mill:eek:

In Ireland we are inocent until proven guilty, nothing in the tribunal changes that

If people paid attention to the substance of Mahon, and used it to help change the system for the better - as opposed to using it for a round of "you're dirtier than we are" point-scoring - then it would be well worth the cost.

cordially,
Scofflaw

later12

Olivia O'Leary had an interesting radio commentary on political corruption on Drive Time

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime/
Available on 1:13 mins into the latest show.

rodento

Scofflaw wrote: »

If people paid attention to the substance of Mahon, and used it to help change the system for the better - as opposed to using it for a round of "you're dirtier than we are" point-scoring - then it would be well worth the cost.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So will any the planning decisions found to be questionable be reversed:eek:

Nuff Said

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0327/1224313953846.html

Mr.Micro

Drumpot wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/03/27/why-did-phil-hogan-stop-five-separate-planning-inquiries/

Why did Phil Hogan stop 5 seperate planning enquiries?

This is the kind of question that is being ignored by our absentee electorate that failed to ask similar kinds of questions of our previous government and where did that get us ?

Fool me once, shame on you. . Fool my twice, three times, four . . . . Shame on us all . .

I was disgusted to learn that. Carlow COCO needs to be investigated. Maybe there are too many dodgy FG councillors in Carlow that would prove embarrassing for Mr. Hogan.

woodoo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was disgusted to learn that. Carlow COCO needs to be investigated. Maybe there are too many dodgy FG councillors in Carlow that would prove embarrassing for Mr. Hogan.

If that is the case and Phil has dropped the investigations because of this. Then that would be a massive scandal. I don't trust the man at all.

Cardinal Richelieu

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was disgusted to learn that. Carlow COCO needs to be investigated. Maybe there are too many dodgy FG councillors in Carlow that would prove embarrassing for Mr. Hogan.

Some of those councillors involved with the 5 councils now sit in the Dail as FG TDs, much more potential for embarrassment.

moceri

"An inquiry into whether there should be an inquiry." ; sounds like a quote from the script of "Yes Minister".

bijapos

Drumpot wrote: »

Why did Phil Hogan stop 5 seperate planning enquiries?

Because he smells trouble for FG and wants to postpone any enquiry results for as long as possible, in fact he is probably going to bury it in the near future. I've said it time and time again, when it comes to dodgy rezonings FG are as bad, and at times worse than FF.

This story isn't new either, it was buried in the news months ago and the media doesn't seem to have picked it up. Trying to stop these investigations was one of the first things that Hogan did as Minister, dodgy isn't the word for it.

Interesting comment in that link that the OP gave from someone called Ryan Meade who seems to be in the Greens:

Ryan Meade on March 27, 2012 at 11:37 am said:
Kelly: “The reason that it was changed was simply because [former Enviornment] Minister [John] Gormley announced them and then for a year did nothing. So that was the reason that it had to be looked at by the new Government, because nothing happened in a year. So it has been looked at and now it’s going to be advanced and it has to be…”

This is impressively close to the opposite of the truth. When the new Government took office they had in front of them:

a) an extensive dossier prepared by planning officials in the Department following an internal review of the complaints;
b) a series of reports from the Managers in each of the local authorities submitted in response to a formal request from the Minister using his statutory powers under the Planning and Development Acts;
c) terms of reference for a panel of planning consultants to carry out independent reviews in the six local authorities;
d) a completed tender process to select this panel of consultants;
e) letters of appointment ready to be issued to the members of the panel.

Instead of issuing the letters (which had been approved by Minister Gormley but held back by the Department following his resignation), Phil Hogan decided to wind the process right back to the “internal review”, even though such a review had already been completed as far back as 2009.

So we have now been waiting nine months for Phil Hogan to produce the results of something that was already done three years ago.

Sierra Oscar

Why is Phil Hogan still a senior government minister, considering the fact that his evidence to the Moriarty Tribunal was utterly rejected?

Who knows . . .

LostinKildare

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Why is Phil Hogan still a senior government minister, considering the fact that his evidence to the Moriarty Tribunal was utterly rejected?

He's the Irish Dick Cheney. Remember how he ushered Enda through the failed FG coup attempt?


Carlow(-Kilkenny) is his own constituency. Hogan is a former Kilkenny county councillor and local auctioneer/estate agent. To my mind, that itself shouldn't be permitted --- that an auctioneer should be voting on land rezonings.

I think probably every co council should be looked at. And I don't buy that internal investigations are at all sufficient, or that they will be delivered "shortly." In Kildare we were promised an internal report into the planning irregularities surrounding the quarry at the Hill of Allen "shortly" --- back in 2007. And that was by a Green minister!

MadsL

One word. Meath.

Dear God was there every a bunch of clowns in that neck of the woods. At one point they pulled An Taisce into a Government committee claiming that An Taisce were encouraging drug use by opposing the demolition of protected structures in Kells that were being used by junkies. You couldn't make it up.

They managed to rezone enough land in Meath to cater for a population of 242,000 compared to 163,000 in the county in 2005. It overzoned by a factor of 61 times requirements. It had land for 124,173 houses but only needed 2,023.

In response to resistance on zoning One Councillor even called An Taisce 'murderers and plunderers of jobs in the county,' and 'industrial terrorists'

Whilst that particular Councillor was FF and Meath was FF until 2009, I suspect some FG fingers in pies that Hogan may not want investigated.

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

If people paid attention to the substance of Mahon, and used it to help change the system for the better - as opposed to using it for a round of "you're dirtier than we are" point-scoring - then it would be well worth the cost.

cordially,
Scofflaw

There is a lot of (totally understandable) finger pointing at a few individuals since the publication of the report, but hanging them and ignoring the fact that the whole culture of politics, from the town halls to the senate, appears corrupt, is a complete waste of €300m

kippy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is a lot of (totally understandable) finger pointing at a few individuals since the publication of the report, but hanging them and ignoring the fact that the whole culture of politics, from the town halls to the senate, appears corrupt, is a complete waste of €300m

The political points scoring, and complete disregard for what came out of this report is just disgusting. The seemingly endless stream of FF and it appears FG politicians "falling on their sword" and resigning from their parties is just sad. I mean, do these guys think that that is enough? Do they think that the electorate believe that the worst possible thing that can happen a politican is a resignation from his party? Yet again, politicians getting out before they are pushed out and the party putting the party before the good of the country.
I have to be honest I amn't too aware of the facts of these planning enquiries but the fact that they are now gone to an "internal enquiry" is worrying.

Yet again, the mahon, the moriarty and indeed instances such as these should that either CAB, or a specialist section of the Gardai with proper resources should investigate fully and in public as much as possible, allegations of this nature.

Drumpot

MadsL wrote: »

One word. Meath.

Dear God was there every a bunch of clowns in that neck of the woods. At one point they pulled An Taisce into a Government committee claiming that An Taisce were encouraging drug use by opposing the demolition of protected structures in Kells that were being used by junkies. You couldn't make it up.

They managed to rezone enough land in Meath to cater for a population of 242,000 compared to 163,000 in the county in 2005. It overzoned by a factor of 61 times requirements. It had land for 124,173 houses but only needed 2,023.

In response to resistance on zoning One Councillor even called An Taisce 'murderers and plunderers of jobs in the county,' and 'industrial terrorists'

Whilst that particular Councillor was FF and Meath was FF until 2009, I suspect some FG fingers in pies that Hogan may not want investigated.

I live in an estate in Bettystown, Co Meath . . Spoke to a newly elected local councellor who said they used to play when they were younger in the field where my house is built. The knickname for where my estate was built is "frog marsh". In the 6 years I have lived here, it has flooded in 4 of them (we got the lame excuse "50 year rainfall", then "100 year rainfall" yadda yadda yadda). The local councellor (yet to be corrupted by the culture they have joined!) said that it was literally criminal how anybody could zone this land for building.

I have been saying for years (see my signature below) that I couldnt understand why Country Councellors had been getting such an easy ride, considering they were up to no good themselves!

Im just sick at the thought of these characters and extremely dissapointed that nobody in government has stood up to this cover up.

kippy

Drumpot wrote: »

I live in an estate in Bettystown, Co Meath . . Spoke to a newly elected local councellor who said they used to play when they were younger in the field where my house is built. The knickname for where my estate was built is "frog marsh". In the 6 years I have lived here, it has flooded in 4 of them (we got the lame excuse "50 year rainfall", then "100 year rainfall" yadda yadda yadda). The local councellor (yet to be corrupted by the culture they have joined!) said that it was literally criminal how anybody could zone this land for building.

I have been saying for years (see my signature below) that I couldnt understand why Country Councellors had been getting such an easy ride, considering they were up to no good themselves!

Im just sick at the thought of these characters and extremely dissapointed that nobody in government has stood up to this cover up.

There has been little or no attempt to reform the seanad, tha dail and local government is only getting tokenised "reform".
It pains me to see the complete inefectiveness/uselessness of the local governance here in Galway. Minutes and decisions from council meetings are oftentimes farcical. Too many councilors, claiming wages, expenses and benefits, who do very little for the overall good of the place, whose main aim is to reach higher office. They've had too much power for too long and less accountability than your standard politician.

Mr.Micro

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Some of those councillors involved with the 5 councils now sit in the Dail as FG TDs, much more potential for embarrassment.

In our community here we have first hand experience of planning skulduggery re Carlow CoCo. Rotten to the core, IMO. Hogan better get his act together and get this sorted.

one foot in the grave

Phil Hogan on Primetime last night said that it was Willie Penrose not himself who made the decision to stop the independent investigations into planning "irregularities" in Dublin and Cork City Councils and Carlow, Meath, Cork and Galway County Councils.

Minister Hogan repeated a similar line used by Alan Kelly (Lab TD) that Gormley hadn't moved on these inquiries. This review had been set up, format agreed and expert planners appointed. Gormley didn't sit on it for a year.

Looks like he (or maybe it's Jan O'Sullivan) may have no intention of allowing these investigations to continue.

So was it Labour not FG that blocked these investigations? All very confusing. What is quite clear and beggars belief is that this government post Mahon will not allow these independent investigations into planning irregularities to go ahead.

Why?

Mr.Micro

one foot in the grave wrote: »

Phil Hogan on Primetime last night said that it was Willie Penrose not himself who made the decision to stop the independent investigations into planning "irregularities" in Dublin and Cork City Councils and Carlow, Meath, Cork and Galway County Councils.

Minister Hogan repeated a similar line used by Alan Kelly (Lab TD) that Gormley hadn't moved on these inquiries. This review had been set up, format agreed and expert planners appointed. Gormley didn't sit on it for a year.

Looks like he (or maybe it's Jan O'Sullivan) may have no intention of allowing these investigations to continue.

So was it Labour not FG that blocked these investigations? All very confusing. What is quite clear and beggars belief is that this government post Mahon will not allow these independent investigations into planning irregularities to go ahead.

Why?

It s not acceptable. The Government on one hand want to collect household charge to fund the County Councils and then do not act/will not act if there is suspicion of rot. So fund these bodies from the taxpayer to continue as before, with little or no accountability? Not good enough FG/Labour or Mr. Hogan.

kippy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It s not acceptable. The Government on one hand want to collect household charge to fund the County Councils and then do not act/will not act if there is suspicion of rot. So fund these bodies from the taxpayer to continue as before, with little or no accountability? Not good enough FG/Labour or Mr. Hogan.

Agree 100%.

one foot in the grave

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It s not acceptable. The Government on one hand want to collect household charge to fund the County Councils and then do not act/will not act if there is suspicion of rot. So fund these bodies from the taxpayer to continue as before, with little or no accountability? Not good enough FG/Labour or Mr. Hogan.

No, it's not good enough. Are they putting their own party interests before the interests of this country?

byhookorbycrook

Classy kinda guy if the article below is true...
http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9621:crude-remark-minister-should-be-dismissed&catid=67:human-interest&Itemid=60

Lantus

We have a problem of epidemic proportions in every facet of government.

Many are for all intense purposes "untouchable" by virtue of their position, years in service and connections at the highest levels with TD's, councillers and big business. Not too mention their sheer natural ability to distort and manipulate a system that they control without any oversight or accountability from anyone except their peers who are all up to the same game.

Fixing the countries books is wasted effort unless we change the sysem that runs it.

Sir Oxman

I remember very small reports in the papers within a month of Hogan being made MoE that he had stopped the independent enquiries in favour of internal reviews.
Mr Penrose wasn't mentioned as far as I can remember.
I thought at the time that this was fishy and even fishier when one of the five was Carlow CoCo.

This one smells big time.

And I agree with a lot of posters - the mudslinging now is pathetic - action is needed urgently.
Reform - where art thou?

MadsL

Where is the investigative journalism in this country. This is crying out for exposure, yet nothing. Where has campaigning journalism and editorial gone? Michael Smith seems to be the only name out there hitting hard on this crap.

Here's a recent example on Carlow Planning Dept...

Quinlivan found that “over the years the planning directorate assumed unto itself a dominance and independence”, and this led to “a perceived culture of leniency and inaction regarding compliance with, and application of, planning law”.

Concluding that the management of the planning function “must change”, Quinlivan recommended that the planning function be performed by the county manager. Amazingly however, up until April, Mr Seamus O’Connor was still stated to be the Director for Planning on Carlow Council’s website, something which changed only after correspondence with Village Magazine.

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2012/03/826/

MadsL

Incidentally, this particular piece of legislation is widely ignored...

The Director of Planning had unaccompanied meetings with future planning applicants – again criticised as “an unacceptable practice”, and for not recording notes of many such meetings, a breach of the law. Section 247 (5) of the Planning and Development Act 2000 provides, under penalties that extend to jail sentences, that: “The planning authority shall keep a record in writing of any consultations under this section that relate to a proposed development, including the names of those who participated in the consultations, and a copy of such record shall be placed and kept with the documents to which any planning application in respect of the proposed development relates”.

I remember one Oral Hearing on the Carlton development where Dick Glesson, the chief planner for Dublin City, was asked to produce these recorded notes of meetings with the developer on three occasions during the hearing, and gave assurances on all three occasions that they would be produced. At the end of the hearing, he apologised but assured the Inspector they would be provided. To date, to my knowledge, they have not surfaced.

How are they no consequences for this type of blatant (to be generous) mismanagement and lack of accountability for decisions make in closed door meetings with developers??? It just beggars belief in my view.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Classy kinda guy if the article below is true...
http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9621:crude-remark-minister-should-be-dismissed&catid=67:human-interest&Itemid=60

Part left out of that article: Yer wans up to her neck in something like 10 investment properties. What she really means is :"When are ye bailing me out?" and he was right to tell her where to go.

The fact that the couple have so much time to spend on pursuing an off-the-cuff remark, "not being able to sleep since" etc, should all be warning flags to anyone with a brain cell or two.

LostinKildare

gambiaman wrote: »

I remember very small reports in the papers within a month of Hogan being made MoE that he had stopped the independent enquiries in favour of internal reviews.
Mr Penrose wasn't mentioned as far as I can remember.
I thought at the time that this was fishy and even fishier when one of the five was Carlow CoCo.

Not only that, Hogan was trashing the investigations as early as the day after the general election -- before he'd even taken office. It's ridiculous that now he's trying to lay this at Penrose's feet.

Tony Lowes: Do you support the investigations that Mr Gormley [recently-resigned Green Minister for the Environment] set up for certain Councils including Dublin City – and Carlow.
Phil Hogan: Spurious mostly.
Tony Lowes: If you became Minister would you allow this process to go forward?
Phil Hogan: Absolutely – I think it’s very important that we have confidence in the system of public administration at official level and political level – we learned enough in the Mahon Tribunal to know that this is important – but we’re not going to get into the political business of trying to find scapegoats for political purposes which is what ex-Minister Gormley is intending to do. I’m aware of issues that have come before Carlow County Council but on the material that has come out of the investigations to date I don’t see anything.

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2011/03/phil-hogan-interviewed-from-current-magazine-and-tony-lowes-blog/

Mr.Micro

MadsL wrote: »

Where is the investigative journalism in this country. This is crying out for exposure, yet nothing. Where has campaigning journalism and editorial gone? Michael Smith seems to be the only name out there hitting hard on this crap.

Here's a recent example on Carlow Planning Dept...




http://www.villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2012/03/826/

All professionalism in planning laws were abandoned in Carlow. Even if the naive planner wanted to apply the rules, he/she was overruled or corrected. There was manipulation of the County development plan to suit as well. All over the rural County there are houses that would be out of place in a metropolis, and they massive, sitting in the country side completely out of character. Estates built in the middle of nowhere, with no connections to a proper sewage infrastructure or piped water for such a large number of developments.

Its a national disgrace. Its the same old people as directors, swapping departments and then back again. There is case of a road that the council used without consent and had to pay a cool €11.3 million... to settle the case.

Probe into council's 'irregular' planning decisions

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-into-councils-irregular-planning-decisions-2152358.html


I think Mr. Hogan is afraid how deep the rot goes with County Councils and instead sticks his head in the sand.