It's PanDENmonium! [Off Topic Chat]

Pigwidgeon · 21-06-2013 12:19PM

Professionally speaking as a chef I really don't understand vegans. It hugely limits what you can eat, and makes it nearly impossible to eat out in unspecialised restaurants. I can completely understand vegetarianism, sure I was one for 5 years. We did a class in college on cooking vegan food and it was actually very difficult. A healthy vegetarian diet can be great, and even better than one that includes meat in some places. Tbh, being vegetarian and only buying free-range dairy products, not wearing leather/fur/etc.

Being vegan and being healthy takes a lot of work, meal planning, etc to ensure you have a healthy balanced diet, so it's definitely not something to decide on a whim. Make sure you think it through and plan it properly.

My closing argument is: chocolate.

wnolan1992 · 21-06-2013 01:20PM

I kind of get where vegans are coming from with eggs, but not so much with dairy, especially in Ireland. Having grown up on a dairy farm, surrounded by dairy farms, I genuinely think there's no ethical reason whatsoever not to eat/drink dairy products here.

Like, I can totally understand it more in the states because your milk and stuff is far more likely to be factory farmed just because of the large urban population.

Pigwidgeon · 21-06-2013 01:29PM

It all depends where you source stuff from, buying free range eggs is a bit better or buy them from a local farmer/person with hens, that's what we do and the girl we buy the eggs from, her hens are like part of the family, they have a great life and they're really really nice. Support the locals yo.

Lawliet · 21-06-2013 05:46PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I kind of get where vegans are coming from with eggs, but not so much with dairy, especially in Ireland. Having grown up on a dairy farm, surrounded by dairy farms, I genuinely think there's no ethical reason whatsoever not to eat/drink dairy products here.

Like, I can totally understand it more in the states because your milk and stuff is far more likely to be factory farmed just because of the large urban population.

I grew up on a farm with dairy cows and free range chickens and the cows had it far worse. Yearly artificially insemination, having their calves taken off them too soon, getting those machines clamped onto a very sensitive part of their body every single day -the inflammation, sores and infections that could result from the machines. I definitely get why people don't want to fund that industry.

Anyway a lot of vegan don't really care if something meets the minimum standards of being kind to animals, its more they believe people don't have any right to use animals for anything at all.

Jhcx · 21-06-2013 06:59PM

I did not piece together that Nadia Ali is founder of iiO. Ah she's just beautiful.

Palytoxin · 21-06-2013 09:40PM

Lawliet wrote: »

I grew up on a farm with dairy cows and free range chickens and the cows had it far worse. Yearly artificially insemination, having their calves taken off them too soon, getting those machines clamped onto a very sensitive part of their body every single day -the inflammation, sores and infections that could result from the machines. I definitely get why people don't want to fund that industry.

Anyway a lot of vegan don't really care if something meets the minimum standards of being kind to animals, its more they believe people don't have any right to use animals for anything at all.

Can't agree with you about the cows, AI is no more invasive than a colonoscopy, and as regards the frequency it's only done when they're in heat. It might be an unnatural frequency, but they'd be likely served anyway if run with a bull, which would be the most natural thing of all. As regards using AI, it's choice of "bull or cull" essentially, so the cow may as well be in calf to the best possible calf if it's going to be in calf at all. It's not viable to keep non-lactating cows around tbf. As regards taking the calves away, at least they get the colostrum and aren't isolated alone, and are with a group of other calves, you do have a point about the emotional bonding side of the whole affair.

Have to disagree about the machines too, they're no worse than a mouthful of teeth hanging off them all day long. They're a simple rubber tube with a small bit of suction and pulsation, and are rigorously cleaned to keep cell counts down and avoid mastitis and the likes. Infection is the biggest problem, but the teats are treated with an antibacterial after every milking, minimizes the problem. If you actually feel what they're like, a calf's mouth is much rougher, you'd be surprised how gentle the machines are.

I hope you realize how big a growth industry it is, and the employment it's actually going to provide and money it could bring into the country, planned increases of up to 50% by 2020. As regards using animals at all, that's the way the world works I'm afraid, they'd surely be extinct anyway if they weren't used in farming, lack of common ground and all that.

JamJamJamJam · 21-06-2013 11:32PM

Dairy cows are eventually killed, as are hens, and killing animals is wrong, (in my opinion of course, but it should totally be everyone's opinion, in my opinion! :-P), so supporting the dairy farming is indirectly leading to death, for one thing. And then beyond getting killed, it's not really fair anyway for us to use animals like that anyway! They don't always suffer majorly, but they do suffer and have their lives dictated totally by people, which is just lousy! I wouldn't like it anyway..!

And to say that they wouldn't be alive without farming is a bit hmmm... It's true in one way that the cows on farms are direct products of the industry, but it doesn't justify further (emotive-word-for-the-lolz alert!!!) imprisoning them, enslaving them, systematically raping them every year to force them into pregnancy, then eventually killing them for food! If there were no farms we surely have an obligation to provide' a space for animals to live. A natural park or whatever, instead of claiming sole ownership of all of the land just because we can. So really extinction shouldn't be an issue.

I can't remember the other things you said and it's late and I have work in the morning, but em.. Yeah mostly I was in that mood because I just feel like a coward for excusing and contributing to what those animals experience. Cos sometimes I get overwhelmed by the thought that we consider them to be like robots with no thought or emotions or the ability to suffer just because they're not human! And I'm an atheist and I don't think there's anything sacred about being a human! So I just feel like I'm being selfish and a bit of a cop-out by not facing up to that! Those are the thoughts that led to my recent conversion to vegetarianism, and are the same thoughts threatening me with veganism now :-P

Now! Sleep! See you guys tomorrow. I'll bring the carrot sticks :-P

PseudoFamous · 21-06-2013 11:36PM

lel

Palytoxin · 22-06-2013 12:54AM

JamJamJamJam wrote: »

Dairy cows are eventually killed, as are hens, and killing animals is wrong, (in my opinion of course, but it should totally be everyone's opinion, in my opinion! :-P), so supporting the dairy farming is indirectly leading to death, for one thing. And then beyond getting killed, it's not really fair anyway for us to use animals like that anyway! They don't always suffer majorly, but they do suffer and have their lives dictated totally by people, which is just lousy! I wouldn't like it anyway..!

In most cases killing them is a better option than letting them suffer a miserable demise via health issues imo. A lame cow ridden with mastitis and cysts isn't going to have a good time, is it? I find your logic convoluted, and you're making points that aren't really realistic tbh. The fact that the dairy industry is leading to death? Breeding pets is leading to death. Death is inevitable once there's birth! Animals, in general, are better in human care, they're given food, shelter, medication they need, etc. Just because they're not sitting up inside on the couch with their owner doesn't mean they can't be content.

And to say that they wouldn't be alive without farming is a bit hmmm... It's true in one way that the cows on farms are direct products of the industry, but it doesn't justify further (emotive-word-for-the-lolz alert!!!) imprisoning them, enslaving them, systematically raping them every year to force them into pregnancy, then eventually killing them for food! If there were no farms we surely have an obligation to provide' a space for animals to live. A natural park or whatever, instead of claiming sole ownership of all of the land just because we can. So really extinction shouldn't be an issue.

A bit hmmm, eh? How often do you see wild cows roaming the roads and fields? Way to sensationalize it all anyway! Imprisonment is a strong term to describe it, but fences are preferable to letting them roam freely obviously. Enslaving? You're using that term lightly, if anything it could be considered employment, and if the animals could put together the thought processes I'm sure they would choose it over the alternatives. Systematic rape? I think your best bet here is to read into how animal breeding works, they're not as selective in their sexual partners as we might be, who's to say they're not raped by bulls? AI is simply taking advantage of an inevitable event in most cases. A cow that isn't going to have a calf and be milked is worthless other than for meat. I don't feel in obliged to provide for them, it's all well and good to have these pipe dreams for a utopia where all the animals can frolic around together, but you'll be hard pressed to find people to sacrifice their land to keep non-profitable animals. Even zoos are there to make profit at the end of the day. And as callous or whatever as I may sound, money makes the world go round.

I can't remember the other things you said and it's late and I have work in the morning, but em.. Yeah mostly I was in that mood because I just feel like a coward for excusing and contributing to what those animals experience. Cos sometimes I get overwhelmed by the thought that we consider them to be like robots with no thought or emotions or the ability to suffer just because they're not human! And I'm an atheist and I don't think there's anything sacred about being a human! So I just feel like I'm being selfish and a bit of a cop-out by not facing up to that! Those are the thoughts that led to my recent conversion to vegetarianism, and are the same thoughts threatening me with veganism now :-P

Now! Sleep! See you guys tomorrow. I'll bring the carrot sticks :-P

It all depends on what you considering suffering to be tbh. Living a fulfilled and content life on a farm, with an accessible supply of all their necessities? Doesn't sound like suffering to me.

Davidius · 22-06-2013 06:48AM

If aliens can mutilate cows who are we to say it's wrong?

Lawliet · 22-06-2013 04:12PM

Palytoxin wrote: »

Can't agree with you about the cows,

....

they'd surely be extinct anyway if they weren't used in farming, lack of common ground and all that.

All I see here is 'The milking industry meets the absolute minimum standards of being decent to these animals, and it benefits us so that justifies it.'
And that's all any argument like this boils down to; excuses and justifications that some people can live with and others can't.
At the end of the day there's always going to be people who will eat animal products no matter how horrific the treatment because they feel their entitled to it, and there's the people who will refuse even if the animal lived in luxury because they believe they're not entitled to it.

Palytoxin · 22-06-2013 05:38PM

Lawliet wrote: »

All I see here is 'The milking industry meets the absolute minimum standards of being decent to these animals, and it benefits us so that justifies it.'
And that's all any argument like this boils down to; excuses and justifications that some people can live with and others can't.
At the end of the day there's always going to be people who will eat animal products no matter how horrific the treatment because they feel their entitled to it, and there's the people who will refuse even if the animal lived in luxury because they believe they're not entitled to it.

Hypothetical situation so, out of interest, what standards would you deem more appropriate than the status quo, if it is a case that abolition of the industry is not a possibility?

There's no point going into the whole Machiavellian side of this anyway. My opinion is that their use can be justified through appropriate treatment, and that the current methods used are appropriate, and I don't have a problem with their humane raising and killing for our benefit. Animals are also a large part of a sustainable agricultural system imo, and a lot of the ethics issues are averted by proper treatment.

PseudoFamous · 22-06-2013 07:24PM

I say we train cows to fight in hundreds of gladiator style events a day and eat the losers and worship the winners by suckling their teats.

Lawliet · 22-06-2013 08:03PM

Palytoxin wrote: »

Hypothetical situation so, out of interest, what standards would you deem more appropriate than the status quo, if it is a case that abolition of the industry is not a possibility?

I'm the wrong person to answer that as I think the entire process is the problem, it's like asking where to put the band-aid on gangrenous limb.

Jhcx · 22-06-2013 08:48PM

Watching prison Break from the start. Because i never finished it. Plus there was a movie i didnt know about.

After that is a catch up of LOST. because i never finished that(Difficult times in my life)

Might have a catch up of Malcolm in the Middle after this

Just trying to think of what other shows i need or should catch up on. My TVM account keeps saying im a Rookie even though i have watched 19shows Complete out of the 26 i still have yet to finish or go back to start with. out of the 19 ive watch 133 seasons. How Dafuq am i still a Rookie. how much tv do you need to watch like?

JamJamJamJam · 22-06-2013 08:49PM

Palytoxin wrote: »

In most cases killing them is a better option than letting them suffer a miserable demise via health issues imo. A lame cow ridden with mastitis and cysts isn't going to have a good time, is it? I find your logic convoluted, and you're making points that aren't really realistic tbh. The fact that the dairy industry is leading to death? Breeding pets is leading to death. Death is inevitable once there's birth! Animals, in general, are better in human care, they're given food, shelter, medication they need, etc. Just because they're not sitting up inside on the couch with their owner doesn't mean they can't be content.

I kinda see where you're coming from in your first sentence, but I have difficulty with it. It would seem ridiculous to say that killing a person is a better option than letting them eventually develop a disease and dying slowly, so I'm not sure how we could allow it in animals. I said 'death' but I meant premature death, y'know what I mean! :P Yeah I dunno how I feel about animals in human care. Animals that aren't exploited are probably fine mostly? Having pets seems grand to me (even though there are vegans who are opposed to it). I wouldn't say farm animals are treated like pets, though. Now, I'd agree that much of the time most cows are treated grand in Ireland, and spend most of their time doing what they'd always do anyway, but there are lots of times when they aren't, and that's inevitable in farming, so I think that might make it unacceptable overall. Pigs aren't treated well, and large poultry farms are awful (I've only been on one to be fair, and it was free range). Animals do well in human care, but I don't know if farming counts as 'care'. Bad things happen, and they don't have to happen for me to eat or drink or be healthy or happy, so why should they!

Palytoxin wrote: »

A bit hmmm, eh? How often do you see wild cows roaming the roads and fields? Way to sensationalize it all anyway! Imprisonment is a strong term to describe it, but fences are preferable to letting them roam freely obviously. Enslaving? You're using that term lightly, if anything it could be considered employment, and if the animals could put together the thought processes I'm sure they would choose it over the alternatives. Systematic rape? I think your best bet here is to read into how animal breeding works, they're not as selective in their sexual partners as we might be, who's to say they're not raped by bulls? AI is simply taking advantage of an inevitable event in most cases. A cow that isn't going to have a calf and be milked is worthless other than for meat. I don't feel in obliged to provide for them, it's all well and good to have these pipe dreams for a utopia where all the animals can frolic around together, but you'll be hard pressed to find people to sacrifice their land to keep non-profitable animals. Even zoos are there to make profit at the end of the day. And as callous or whatever as I may sound, money makes the world go round.

As it turns out, I am aware that cows don't roam wild. But the fact that don't roam wild can't be used to justify using cows n' stuff?? You said to Lawliet "As regards using animals at all, that's the way the world works I'm afraid, they'd surely be extinct anyway if they weren't used in farming". I'm saying that their hypothetical extinction has nothing to do with using them and abusing them (at times), other than maybe saying that 'the only reason they were born is to be farmed', and, again, that doesn't justify using them. By the way "That's the way the world works" could be used to qualify anything at all as acceptable??

Perhaps there might have been a minor amount of sensationalism, a little bit, maybe, I guess...! But don't say I didn't warn you with an "emotive-words-for-the-lolz alert" :P I dunno if considering it 'employment' is any more reasonable than considering it slavery, though? I spent my childhood farming, so I'm familiar with animal breeding. Saying that bulls would rape them anyway doesn't mean we can. Now! I said 'Rape', which is a strong word, and AI is not a totally horrific an experience, but technically it is rape. The pregnancy following it is the ordeal that I really have difficulty with. OH also castration is a horrible thing to witness

Being a vegetarian (and sometimes feeling like going vegan) for me is kind of about extending my behaviour towards people, to other animals. If something's unacceptable towards people, it's probably unacceptable towards animals too, as far as I can see.

Palytoxin wrote: »

It all depends on what you considering suffering to be tbh. Living a fulfilled and content life on a farm, with an accessible supply of all their necessities? Doesn't sound like suffering to me.

Yeah but I think we'd be fooling ourselves to accept the lives of all animals on farms as fulfilling and content.

Oh, and I don't know anything about the environmental stuff, but apparently veganism is good for that too!

Can we at least agree that battery farms are cruel and horrible, and we should never buy their eggs?!

PseudoFamous · 22-06-2013 09:07PM

Please shut up, all of you. Lets talk about something less shitty and more lighthearted.

wnolan1992 · 22-06-2013 09:26PM

I have the solution to this entire argument:

LINKY

Everyone hates rats right? Let's put the disgusting little vermin to some use!

(Seriously, I love basically all animals, but rats creep me out and I want them all dead or enslaved)

Jhcx wrote: »

Watching prison Break from the start. Because i never finished it. Plus there was a movie i didnt know about.

There's a Prison Break movie?

Geekness1234 · 22-06-2013 09:28PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I have the solution to this entire argument:

LINKY

Everyone hates rats right? Let's put the disgusting little vermin to some use!

(Seriously, I love basically all animals, but rats creep me out and I want them all dead or enslaved)

There's a Prison Break movie?

THERE WAS A MOVIE?!?!?!

KamiKazeKitten · 22-06-2013 09:38PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I have the solution to this entire argument:

LINKY

Everyone hates rats right? Let's put the disgusting little vermin to some use!

(Seriously, I love basically all animals, but rats creep me out and I want them all dead or enslaved)

There's a Prison Break movie?

Aww, I like rats

Chickens on the other hand...those little fcukers are evil!

iamanengine · 22-06-2013 09:39PM

It was a made for tv movie I think, never watched it myself, Prison Break was never the same after the 1st season

BV4 · 22-06-2013 09:41PM

Jhcx wrote: »

Watching prison Break from the start. Because i never finished it. Plus there was a movie i didnt know about.

After that is a catch up of LOST. because i never finished that(Difficult times in my life)

Might have a catch up of Malcolm in the Middle after this

Just trying to think of what other shows i need or should catch up on. My TVM account keeps saying im a Rookie even though i have watched 19shows Complete out of the 26 i still have yet to finish or go back to start with. out of the 19 ive watch 133 seasons. How Dafuq am i still a Rookie. how much tv do you need to watch like?

Is that TVMuse.eu you are talking about. Looking for a new site to watch TV shows at the moment and that sounds cool enough.

Geekness1234 · 22-06-2013 09:43PM

iamanengine wrote: »

It was a made for tv movie I think, never watched it myself, Prison Break was never the same after the 1st season

You'd think that they'd have just stretched it out,but no,they had to go off on some bats*** crazy plot. :rolleyes:

Jhcx · 22-06-2013 09:45PM

BV4 wrote: »

Is that TVMuse.eu you are talking about. Looking for a new site to watch TV shows at the moment and that sounds cool enough.

Ya.

Its good for keeping track of how many shows you want to watch can also add your movies you've seen as well from the cinema and dvd

Jhcx · 22-06-2013 09:49PM

Geekness1234 wrote: »

THERE WAS A MOVIE?!?!?!

Ya apparently. just a TV one but it supposedly finished off the story line.

I actually thought it was good until they ended back in prison AGAIN lol. but season one is great

wnolan1992 · 22-06-2013 09:49PM

Geekness1234 wrote: »

You'd think that they'd have just stretched it out,but no,they had to go off on some bats*** crazy plot. :rolleyes:

I actually liked all of Prison Break apart from the very last series where it felt like they were just trying to wrap it up.

In fact, the series where they're in Sona (series 3?) is, IMO, better than the first.

Jhcx · 22-06-2013 09:57PM

wnolan1992 wrote: »

I actually liked all of Prison Break apart from the very last series where it felt like they were just trying to wrap it up.

In fact, the series where they're in Sona (series 3?) is, IMO, better than the first.

Series 3 is really where i fell. and ended up missing so much of it. So when i did watch it, it seemed boring because i didnt know the story line. A lot of people didnt like season 3+

Geekness1234 · 22-06-2013 10:10PM

I watched Prison Break weekly on RTE,and nothing could ever beat the hype surrounding the weekly episode,getting all nostalgic now..

JamJamJamJam · 22-06-2013 10:13PM

Jhcx · 22-06-2013 10:18PM

Geekness1234 wrote: »

I watched Prison Break weekly on RTE,and nothing could ever beat the hype surrounding the weekly episode,getting all nostalgic now..

Feel like a child again lol. On my second episode forgot how much i loved the show. :pac:

It's PanDENmonium! [Off Topic Chat]

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