kylith wrote: » Exactly. While I'm aware that my dog is an animal a decision to end her suffering would not be because she is an animal that's broken and should be got rid of; it's about making sure that the ones you love the most suffer the least. The idea that it's somehow preferable to leave a human, especially a newborn infant who has no other experience of the world, dying in agony is repugnant to me. What it says to me is that in some people's eyes humans are somehow worth less than a dog, that we should make them suffer more. "We ended our dogs agony because it's an animal, but this human baby born without kidneys should have its life prolonged for as long as we can so it can suffer as much as possible. Because human life is sacred." Well, I'm sorry but imo that opinion is just sick. Her mother would probably be a candidate for Dignitas*, but then loveisdivine would be prosecuted for helping her to end her pain. *Were that loveisdivine's mother's wish.
clairefontaine wrote: » I'm going to deviate a little bit from the main topic but it is related. One of my problems with RC is the glorification of pain and suffering.............. Pain is a deeply Catholic virtue.
IvyTheTerrible wrote: » Genuinely interested: Why would you suspect diy abortion rates are due to a lot of immigration from Eastern Europe?
Justin1982 wrote: » My theory is thus......Abortion is possibly quiet common in Eastern europe, or where ever abortion is legal. Knowledge about how to carry out an abortion is probably more freely available and a lot more people are trained in how to carry out abortions........Therefore I am suspecting a flow of this knowledge along with immigration.......Not questioning their morals or anything, just the extent of the flow of knowledge alongside immigration Alas for all I know abortion is not legal in eastern europe so I could be way off the mark Also since prostitution is a lot more prevalent in eastern europe and I suspect that the numbers of eastern european prostitutes working in Ireland the last ten years has increased dramatically. I suspect that a lot of prostitutes end up pregnant and have abortions. So I'm presuming that a lot of these abortions are carried out DIY or via organized nurses who worked in abortion clinics in eastern europe. Yes again my ignorance of these issues is possibly very high. But spinkle a bit of pregnancy in with organized prostitution rings, then it seems like a recipe for disaster abortion wise, especially if they are mixed up with criminal gangs.
Obliq wrote: » You are WAY off the mark buddy. Sorry. Perhaps do some studying of facts? It's called research. I'm not trying to be funny, but it seems you're insinuating that we innocent Irish women are somehow influenced by these European floozies into wanting abortions when NO Irish women ever wanted them before. BOLLOX, tbh. Also BOLLOX about the prostitution. Oh. Sorry now, misread the bit about this influx leading to DIY abortions. Also bollox.
username123 wrote: » Mad theory. Sounds like you don't like Eastern European people. Nothing factual.
Justin1982 wrote: » Personally I think your a bit innocent if you think that sort of thing doesnt happen at all. It most definitely does. I was originally questioning the extent to which it goes on because, yes, I am quiet ignorant on figures.
Justin1982 wrote: » Its nothing to do with not liking anyone :P But I doubt that too many Irish nurses are trained in how to give abortions so I doubt that they are involved too much in underground abortions. If nurses who are trained come from a country where they are trained in abortion then I suspect that they could be involved in underground abortion, particularly if they are involved with a dodgy element of an immigrant community. I'm not saying that Eastern Europeans are dodgy.......But I'm sure that a section of every society has its black spots unfortunately
Justin1982 wrote: » Yes again my ignorance of these issues is possibly very high.
bluewolf wrote: » I'd say he'd have noticed quick sharp if there was porn on those leaflets, or any other very unsavoury inappropriate content for kids
meeeeh wrote: » it should be but I'm sure it won't. Headmaster should be gone too. And this has nothing to do with the issue, I think that should be done whenever someone tries to use children for any kind of (political) agenda.
MaxWig wrote: » Slight over-reaction. The kids were bringing home leaflets, a very old practice that I can certainly remember in my day. It was a gross error of judgement, maybe even cynical, but it is not grounds for termination of employment.
rox5 wrote: » It amazes me how these people say that killing foetuses is wrong, but once these babies come into the world and go through serious problems in their lives (bullying, mental illness, abuse, ect.) then they are completely ignored or not fully helped.
Obliq wrote: » I do not understand your focus on European women and prostitution? You are THAT misinformed about Irish women's difficulties in accessing abortion services (numbers involved, etc.), you'd think the place to start your research would be with that, not with other EU women. Why the focus? It's a good bit off topic too.
Obliq wrote: » I think someone (Morag?) already answered that for you. It would be foolhardy to be performing surgical abortion procedures here and probably unnecessarily risky. I haven't heard of any cases anyway.
wonderfulname wrote: » Very, very high. I really don't understand how people can come to conclusions they deem valid based entirely on their own musings and half forgotten observations. None of the assumptions your theory is based on hold true, I could put time into digging up references and disproving what you have said, but it seems ridiculous to do when you haven't attempted to qualify your musings yourself.
Obliq wrote: » Oh FFS. :mad: What part of "You are THAT misinformed about Irish women's difficulties in accessing abortion services (numbers involved, etc.), you'd think the place to start your research would be with that, not with other EU women" did you not understand? Don't mean to back-seat moderate here, but I'm not on this thread to talk about prostitution. The thread title is Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals? I'm sure if you run along to After Hours you'll find a perfectly lovely thread about your particular bias and you'll fit in just fine. I haven't been here in the Ladies' Lounge for long, but the regulars here seem to prefer fact to fiction.
Justin1982 wrote: » Ok, I'll try make you happy. Lets call them "women who were not born in Ireland". Anyway, I didnt know that there was an abortion pill so I was presuming that any DIY abortions would have to be surgical to some extent. My focus on foreign women is because trafficing of women into Ireland to work in the sex industry is pretty high. 200+ were known to have been trafficed into Ireland in 2006 so I would imagine the real number is a lot higher. Sexual abuse is probably quiet common and so too would pregnancy I'd imagine. As they are probably under the control of organized gangs then I'd imagine that its not too likely that such women use the traditional crisis pregnancy services that Irish women would so figures are a lot more likely to fall through the net of normal data collection. And I doubt criminal gangs involved trafficing are posting their statistics liberally on the web no matter how much I "research". I think it would be fool hardy for gangs involved in trafficing to spend loads of money sending women under their control abroad for abortions and after care counselling. Men controlling a lot of trafficed women are probably abusing them as well. But then again I'm probably wrong, men involved in trafficing large numbers of women are probably gentlemen, waiting on the trafficed ladies every need. Prostitution in Ireland and trafficing of women into Irish sex industry is pretty common. I doubt there is any accurate figures out there as its underground. But its common enough for a large anti prostitution campaign to be run in the Republic the last few years. I dont really feel like I have to justify my claim that the abuse of women in the sex industry is fairly common and a lot of them get pregnant and have abortions. Its a bit like trying to convince Catholics that priests were abusing children in the 90's. Believe what you like but I'd be happily shocked if it wasnt the case.
clairefontaine wrote: » I think there is a valuable point to be considered. As Ireland becomes more multicultural, to what extent can it impose strictly Catholic morality on its citizens?
Justin1982 wrote: » Ok, I'll try make you happy. Pretty sure I've indicated that facts would be good? Ok, carry on... Lets call them "women who were not born in Ireland". Anyway, I didnt know that there was an abortion pill (RESEARCH IS YOUR FRIEND!) so I was presuming (presumption is not cool, as it is generally wrong) that any DIY abortions would have to be surgical to some extent. My focus on foreign women is because trafficing of women into Ireland to work in the sex industry is pretty high. (LINK TO A FACTUAL STUDY?) 200+ were known to have been trafficed into Ireland in 2006 so I would imagine (Imagining fact is not the SAME as fact) the real number is a lot higher. Sexual abuse is probably (more guesswork) quiet (quite) common and so too would pregnancy I'd imagine. (Again, with the imagination!) As they are probably (...sigh) under the control of organized gangs then I'd imagine (???) that its not too likely (how likely exactly is "not too likely"? What IS it with you and guessing?) that such women use the traditional crisis pregnancy services that Irish women would so figures are a lot more likely to fall through the net of normal data collection. And I doubt (Well, if you doubt it, that's good enough for me....:pac:) criminal gangs involved trafficing are posting their statistics liberally on the web no matter how much I "research".
Justin1982 wrote: » Ok, I'll try make you happy. Lets call them "women who were not born in Ireland". Anyway, I didnt know that there was an abortion pill so I was presuming that any DIY abortions would have to be surgical to some extent. My focus on foreign women is because trafficing of women into Ireland to work in the sex industry is pretty high. 200+ were known to have been trafficed into Ireland in 2006 so I would imagine the real number is a lot higher. Sexual abuse is probably quiet common and so too would pregnancy I'd imagine. As they are probably under the control of organized gangs then I'd imagine that its not too likely that such women use the traditional crisis pregnancy services that Irish women would so figures are a lot more likely to fall through the net of normal data collection. And I doubt criminal gangs involved trafficing are posting their statistics liberally on the web no matter how much I "research".
Morag wrote: » Ireland has always been multicultural with people who are non christian and it has been disgusting how the rights of people have been trampled over when the State was founded and the RC Church was allowed to take control of schools and hospitals and the enshrined inequality which was the Irish Constitution from it's very inception.
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