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Police asking for Personal details

124

Comments

  • #92
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Remind me again how many US States employ metal detectors and knife sweeps on its streets?


    I don't know the answer to that but then again i couldn't tell you how many Euro countries do this either.

    How many US schools and colleges have metal detectors and knife sweeps?


  • #93
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    Are you saying that a member of AGS can demand name, address and DOB under ANY circumstances?

    Yes/No will do.

    No i never said ANY circumstances.

    Are you saying NO MATTER what the circumstances you can refuse to give name and address?


  • #94
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Remind me again how many US States employ metal detectors and knife sweeps on its streets?





    I don't know the answer to that but then again i couldn't tell you how many Euro countries do this either.

    How many US schools and colleges have metal detectors and knife sweeps?

    I see. Deflecting the question. Could you answer it, and the one I asked above.

    Perhaps you fail to see the difference between the public and private realm.


  • #95
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    No i never said ANY circumstances.

    Are you saying NO MATTER what the circumstances you can refuse to give name and address?

    No. But I am asserting that a member of AGS has to have a lawful reason for asking it. Simply being a member is not enough. Are you disputing that?

    Likewise, I would be fascinated to know what lawful reason Gardai have for searching people boots at road checkpoints, other than people consenting to be searched. Asking "D'ya mind?" is not a request made in accordance with any law of the land.


  • #96
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    I see. Deflecting the question. Could you answer it, and the one I asked above.

    Perhaps you fail to see the difference between the public and private realm.

    I didn't deflect i answered and then asked you a question but ok i will rephrase. How many PUBLIC schools in the US have metal detectors and knife sweeps?


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  • #97
    qaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ✭qaf


    MadsL wrote: »
    Would you call police stops in NM, TX, OH, AK and border patrol stops in AZ and CA not too much in 18 months?

    It all depends on what type of driving you are doing. If you are driving on 1-95 from Florida to the Northeast (or other similar interstate highways or known drug transit routes) in a rental car or other suspicious vehicle it it not unusual to get stopped more than a few times. Driving near the border you are guaranteed to be stopped numerous times but these are all quick stops. Anyway there is a big difference between minor traffic stops compared to when police are called to minor incidents which was what I addressed in my post which you didn't feel the need to answer. Did you try obstructing the officers during any of these stops? How did that work out for you?


  • #98
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    No. But I am asserting that a member of AGS has to have a lawful reason for asking it. Simply being a member is not enough. Are you disputing that?

    Likewise, I would be fascinated to know what lawful reason Gardai have for searching people boots at road checkpoints, other than people consenting to be searched. Asking "D'ya mind?" is not a request made in accordance with any law of the land.

    I don't recall ever saying a garda can do this just because he/she is a member of AGS what i said was if they stop you (ie have a pertinent reason) and you refuse to supply your details (name and address) when requested then you can be arrested and held until your identity has been established.

    As for searching car boots i don't know if they need reasonable cause to search as i have never had a problem allowing them to do their job. Maybe they are looking for guns or drugs (quite a few of both have been found in this manner) i don't possess either and therefore have nothing to hide from them.


  • #99
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    MadsL wrote: »
    There are limited circumstances under which a member of AGS can ask you to ID yourself.

    I'm with you on this one MadasL. Eventhough police can have a tough job, and can indeed arrest you for NOT providing details when asked, under CERTAIN circumstances, I believe far too many police abuse people's ignorance of their rights for their own agenda. I know of one retired Garda who made it his business to confiscate fireworks from kids around Halloween, only to bring them home to his own kids!

    So in the interests of enlightening people, could you tell us when you CAN be arrested for NOT providing details when requested?


  • #100
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    qaf wrote: »
    It all depends on what type of driving you are doing. If you are driving on 1-95 from Florida to the Northeast (or other similar interstate highways or known drug transit routes) in a rental car or other suspicious vehicle it it not unusual to get stopped more than a few times. Driving near the border you are guaranteed to be stopped numerous times but these are all quick stops.

    Probable cause is now a rental car. Who knew?
    Anyway there is a big difference between minor traffic stops compared to when police are called to minor incidents which was what I addressed in my post which you didn't feel the need to answer.
    I'm a law-abiding citizen why would I need to get into that? No, I haven't had 'street' dealings with the cops other than a cop responding to my wife's purse being stolen.

    Have you?

    Did you try obstructing the officers during any of these stops? How did that work out for you?

    I cut off questions about my immigration status with an "I'm sorry, officer, I thought this was about my driving?" He stopped asking immigration questions then. No consequences, a verbal warning for lane discipline (deserved).


  • #101
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    newmug wrote: »
    So in the interests of enlightening people, could you tell us when you CAN be arrested for NOT providing details when requested?

    When you fail to answer a lawful enquiry, and you must be given the basis in law for that. And it is also lawful to audio/videotape that request and subsequent actions.


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  • #102
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I didn't deflect i answered and then asked you a question but ok i will rephrase. How many PUBLIC schools in the US have metal detectors and knife sweeps?

    Would you describe a school as a public place? Can I just wander in therefore? Clearly not. You are simply obfuscating the fact that the UK has given up pretending that searches in a public place need to have a lawful basis.
    bumper234 wrote: »
    I don't recall ever saying a garda can do this just because he/she is a member of AGS what i said was if they stop you (ie have a pertinent reason) and you refuse to supply your details (name and address) when requested then you can be arrested and held until your identity has been established.

    Do they need to inform you of the reason for the stop in order to make it legal? In other words, a guard cannot claim that it is legal just because they stopped you. You seem to be claiming that just because a guard stopped you, he has a legal basis to gather your details, that simply is not the case.
    As for searching car boots i don't know if they need reasonable cause to search as i have never had a problem allowing them to do their job.

    The guards job is to randomly stop people at checkpoints and search the car? Really? Ever wonder why they ask, "What's in the back?" "Mind if I take a look?"

    Let's take a scenario. Road checkpoint. You have a shotgun in the boot and blood from rabbits on a sheet. You are legally transporting the shottie. You are late home and wife is pissed.

    Do you really want to deal with this scenario, or should you be allowed peaceably on your way without being tricked into a search that the guards have no basis in law to conduct?
    Maybe they are looking for guns or drugs (quite a few of both have been found in this manner) i don't possess either and therefore have nothing to hide from them.

    Ah, the old "I have nothing to hide" argument. Well, the Birmingham Six also had "nothing to hide".


  • #103
    qaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ✭qaf


    MadsL wrote: »
    Probable cause is now a rental car. Who knew?

    Most people are going to go slightly over the speed limit or make some other traffic violation so that gives them probable cause but really it is because of another reason. Even now they have automatic license plate readers that alert them to the information on the registered owner and it is not uncommon for them to find a reason to pull it over for no other reason than who the car is registered too. Slightly speeding, no turn signal, going through orange light too late, acting suspicious, take your pick.

    MadsL wrote: »
    I'm a law-abiding citizen why would I need to get into that? No, I haven't had 'street' dealings with the cops other than a cop responding to my wife's purse being stolen.

    Have you?

    Yes plenty of times when I was teen I got arrested on some stupid charges like disorderly conduct because I didn't show respect to an officer or was God forbid at a public park after dark or loitering with my friends (commonly known as hanging out with friends in other countries). Also my girlfriend worked Pro Bono on exactly these type of trumped up charges while going to Harvard Law. I also have a friend who was an assistance district attorney and another who was a court officer who have confirmed how the system really works.
    MadsL wrote: »
    I cut off questions about my immigration status with an "I'm sorry, officer, I thought this was about my driving?" He stopped asking immigration questions then. No consequences, a verbal warning for lane discipline (deserved).

    I hope you put it on Liveleak or YouTube. As long as you're not the typical hypocrite that does that type of crap and then turns around and complains about all the illegals then I have no problem with it.


  • #104
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    qaf wrote: »
    Most people are going to go slightly over the speed limit or make some other traffic violation so that gives them probable cause but really it is because of another reason. Even now they have automatic license plate readers that alert them to the information on the registered owner and it is not uncommon for them to find a reason to pull it over for no other reason than who the car is registered too. Slightly speeding, no turn signal, going through orange light too late, acting suspicious, take your pick.

    At least then there is a basis for the stop. And the LEO has to give the reason for the stop. As in my case this prevents the conversation wandering into "what's in the back" and "Where are you from, son?"
    Yes plenty of times when I was teen I got arrested on some stupid charges like disorderly conduct because I didn't show respect to an officer or was God forbid at a public park after dark or loitering with my friends (commonly known as hanging out with friends in other countries). Also my girlfriend worked Pro Bono on exactly these type of trumped up charges while going to Harvard Law. I also have a friend who was an assistance district attorney and another who was a court officer who have confirmed how the system really works.
    Fair enough.

    I hope you put it on Liveleak or YouTube. As long as you're not the typical hypocrite that does that type of crap and then turns around and complains about all the illegals then I have no problem with it.

    Why would I put it on YouTube, any filming I might do would be for my own protection, not for entertainment. I have never been stopped in AZ but as a green card holder would be wary enough of AZ officers and their attitude to immigrants.


  • #105
    wicklowstevo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 919 ✭✭✭wicklowstevo


    Im unfollowing this thread too many badly informed plonkers who live on line rather than in the real world


  • #106
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Im unfollowing this thread too many badly informed plonkers who live on line rather than in the real world

    If you feel people are misinformed do feel free to show them how with facts rather than simply insulting them. Very mature.


  • #107
    qaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ✭qaf


    MadsL wrote: »
    At least then there is a basis for the stop. And the LEO has to give the reason for the stop. As in my case this prevents the conversation wandering into "what's in the back" and "Where are you from, son?"

    Ah so I guess profiling is okay as long as the person was actually slightly breaking the law even though they are just doing what 90% of the rest of the public are doing. Most people are also nervous when pulled over from police even when they have not committed any serious crime. It is not difficult to be held up for a long period if you refuse a search of your vehicle while the cops purposely delay having the K-9 unit get there quickly.

    You obviously have the belief that cops all play by the book and the US Constitution is something that protects you in the real world and not years later on appeal, so really it is just better that we agree to disagree. You have never had to rely on a public defender that you see laughing and joking with the prosecutor after they screw you over but you should try having some commonsense and empathy instead of believing in fairy tales like the protection the US Constitution offers in the real world.


  • #108
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    qaf wrote: »
    Ah so I guess profiling is okay as long as the person was actually slightly breaking the law even though they are just doing what 90% of the rest of the public are doing. Most people are also nervous when pulled over from police even when they have not committed any serious crime. It is not difficult to be held up for a long period if you refuse a search of your vehicle while the cops purposely delay having the K-9 unit get there quickly.

    You obviously have the belief that cops all play by the book and the US Constitution is something that protects you in the real world and not years later on appeal, so really it is just better that we agree to disagree. You have never had to rely on a public defender that you see laughing and joking with the prosecutor after they screw you over but you should try having some commonsense and empathy instead of believing in fairy tales like the protection the US Constitution offers in the real world.

    You sound rather embittered. I'm comparing some of the attitudes of UK/Irish cops with the US, but not making out the US to be a fairytale world.

    I comply with cops most of the time, but am aware of my rights. Many posters here seem blissfully ignorant, yet place 100% faith in cops to behave with faultless legality. Some of whom could not even name the law under which they are trying to exercise their powers.


  • #109
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    bumper234 wrote: »
    And they identify you how? By asking questions to establish who you are and they will also (if a crime was committed) ask you to explain your reason for being where you were. Jesus dude i didnt realize i was dealing with such a pedantic jackass that you were going to take such a stance on a technicality but **** it. If you wish to debunk this statement then provide proof (including links ) as i have instead of just saying "no thats wrong read the constitution"



    I think my rights are more than just a technicality.
    The links you posted back up everything I said, or maby you could show me where I was wrong.
    I know what questions I am obliged to answer and when I have to answer them.


  • #110
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Im unfollowing this thread too many badly informed plonkers who live on line rather than in the real world

    Agree

    too many keyboard warriors with MASSIVE chips on their shoulders and obvious hatred for police and authority figures.


  • #111
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Agree

    too many keyboard warriors with MASSIVE chips on their shoulders and obvious hatred for police and authority figures.

    Another one who can't debate without throwing insults around. Better than admitting you were wrong eh?

    Hatred for police...read my posts again please.
    MadsL wrote: »
    Incidentally, just to be clear; I have utmost respect for Law Enforcement, even to the point of considering joining once I become a citizen, however I have greater respect for the rights of the citizen. Exercising your rights should not be viewed with suspicion.
    MadsL wrote: »
    I am incredibly respectful and grateful to LEO wherever I meet them. I often thank them for doing their job and shake hands after concluding whatever business. However, getting into things like "where are you after coming from?" is an unnecessary waste of time. Frankly, I do not want to give any cop a reason to subject me to a search. Nor, constitutionally am I expected to.


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  • #112
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    Another one who can't debate without throwing insults around. Better than admitting you were wrong eh?

    Hatred for police...read my posts again please.

    The fact i was not talking too or about you has probably gone over your head. Also there is no debate when one sides standard reply is "No you are wrong" but can and will not cite sources or provide links as to why we are wrong.


  • #113
    wicklowstevo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 919 ✭✭✭wicklowstevo


    forger about it bumper , some people just cant get over being told off as a child by a cop or that speeding ticket they don't think they deserved .

    always and smart arse answer and never a solution .


  • #114
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    The fact i was not talking too or about you has probably gone over your head. Also there is no debate when one sides standard reply is "No you are wrong" but can and will not cite sources or provide links as to why we are wrong.

    You have been provided with links, and references. Perhaps if you wish me to not respond to insults you might be clearer about to whom you are directing them. I think the forum would appreciate it if you stuck to facts.
    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    forger about it bumper , some people just cant get over being told off as a child by a cop or that speeding ticket they don't think they deserved .

    always and smart arse answer and never a solution .

    You think pointing out what rights citizens have under a constitution is smart arse answers? Dear oh dear.


  • #115
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    You have been provided with links, and references. Perhaps if you wish me to not respond to insults you might be clearer about to whom you are directing them. I think the forum would appreciate it if you stuck to facts.



    You think pointing out what rights citizens have under a constitution is smart arse answers? Dear oh dear.

    No i have been provided with the quote "read the constitution" but hey muppets gotta muppet right?

    Edit: yes i am resorting to insults for fun because debating issues with you and your ilk is just pointless.


  • #116
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    No i have been provided with the quote "read the constitution" but hey muppets gotta muppet right?

    Edit: yes i am resorting to insults for fun because debating issues with you and your ilk is just pointless.

    Reported.


  • #117
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    Reported.

    Oh no please say it aint so!!!

    Surprisingly a muppet with a chip on his shoulder about people in authority cannot take a mild insult and runs off to report me to forum authority.

    1st 3 letters of your SN describes you perfectly


    Oh the ironing :D


  • #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SamHall wrote: »
    At a check point one night just outside newry, a psni lady officer asked me when my birthday was.

    August 30th I said.

    She rolled her eyes to heaven and said "what year?"

    I rolled my eyes up to heaven too, and said "every fcukin year" and drove off towards carlingford.

    God you're mad


  • #119
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Folks, give the bickering a rest.


  • #120
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    On a serious note - people should be VERY wary about giving out any personal information.

    I know, I know, most of the time, there is a legit reason and the person is just trying to do their job. But people quickly become complacent....and it makes it much easier to commit fraud.

    I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know what the exact legal obligations are, but the safest thing to do is not answer any questions.


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  • #121
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    http://www.iccl.ie/attachments/download/101/Know%20Your%20Rights%20Criminal%20Justice%20and%20Garda%20Powers.pdf

    Just for some clarity as people seem confused;

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0024.html
    (2) Where a member of the Garda Síochána is of the opinion that an offence has been committed under a relevant provision, the member may—

    (a) demand the name and address of any person whom the member suspects, with reasonable cause, has committed, or whom the member finds committing, such an offence, and

    (b) arrest without warrant any such person who fails or refuses to give his name and address when demanded, or gives a name or address which the member has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading.

    Not quite the same as "Right, what's yer name and address".


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