Police asking for Personal details

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 11:24AM

RustyNut wrote: »

Indeed it is, but under the circumstances you describe I would have a valid claim for wrongful arrest etc.

So if you refuse to provide a garda with your name and address and he arrests you and takes you to a station you now think that you can sue for wrongful arrest? Please explain.

RustyNut · 19-06-2013 11:30AM

bumper234 wrote: »

So if you refuse to provide a garda with your name and address and he arrests you and takes you to a station you now think that you can sue for wrongful arrest? Please explain.

The guard would have needed a reason to make a legal demand provided for in law, which can only be made under very specific circumstances for me to provide my identity.

Simply asking for my name and address puts no obligation on me to answer and my refusal to answer Provides the guard with no power of arrest.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 11:45AM

RustyNut wrote: »

The guard would have needed a reason to make a legal demand provided for in law, which can only be made under very specific circumstances for me to provide my identity.

Simply asking for my name and address puts no obligation on me to answer and my refusal to answer Provides the guard with no power of arrest.

OK

You are walking down the road, A crime was commited 15 minutes ago, You are unaware of this when a Garda car pulls up and the driver gets out and asks you your name and address. You refuse to supply this and you are arrested, you think that you have a right to sue for wrongful arrest?

What if the garda now informs you that an offence was commited in the area and someone fitting your description was reported leaving the scene of the crime? Would you still refuse to supply your details?

RustyNut · 19-06-2013 12:00PM

bumper234 wrote: »

OK

You are walking down the road, A crime was commited 15 minutes ago, You are unaware of this when a Garda car pulls up and the driver gets out and asks you your name and address. You refuse to supply this and you are arrested, you think that you have a right to sue for wrongful arrest?

What if the garda now informs you that an offence was commited in the area and someone fitting your description was reported leaving the scene of the crime? Would you still refuse to supply your details?

This is not about weather or not I would give my details, I will allways give my details when I am obliged to and I know when that is.

The fact remains that the statement below is just wrong

bumper234 wrote: »

Simple fact is this....The gardai can stop you and ask questions and if you refuse then you can be arrested and held for questioning.

People should at least understand their rights and responsibilities when dealing with an organisation with as much power over them as AGS.

Ps in the example you give above it would still be wrongful arrest.

Soby · 19-06-2013 12:10PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Not weird at all to be honest. He was most likely carrying out spot checks and checking reactions. Standard practice, nothing more.

You just tell him what he wants to know and be done.

Why can't police just do their jobs with about questioned?

Cause I wanted to Know why they asked me . That ok?

Soby · 19-06-2013 12:11PM

corktina wrote: »

you were at an airport and someone asked you security questions....baffling!

Wouldnt exactly call them security questions.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 12:23PM

RustyNut wrote: »

This is not about weather or not I would give my details, I will allways give my details when I am obliged to and I know when that is.

The fact remains that the statement below is just wrong

The full statement i made is this but you just chose to jump on the bolded part

bumper234 wrote: »

^^^BRAVO!

This is what you do. I am not one of these "if you are innocent then you have nothing to hide brigade" but i am also not one who advocates wasting police time by refusing to answer questions. Simple fact is this....The gardai can stop you and ask questions and if you refuse then you can be arrested and held for questioning. The fact that they don't do this is a testament to their patience with dealing with idiots.

RustyNut wrote: »

People should at least understand their rights and responsibilities when dealing with an organisation with as much power over them as AGS.

People should also understand that the AGS have a tough job to do and sometimes just SOMETIMES they may be stopping you because a (serious?) crime has been committed and they are looking for the perpetrator. By refusing to answer a couple of simple questions you are not only wasting police time but also possibly helping a criminal get away by tying up resources that could be used to continue the search.

RustyNut wrote: »

Ps in the example you give above it would still be wrongful arrest.

I don't think so

The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24 entitles a garda to demand name and address where they reasonably suspect that that a person has committed an offence. A failure to comply is an arrestable offence.

The person of whom the demand is made must be informed of the reasonable suspicion and the consequence of the failure to comply. Plain language is required to be used by the garda in explaining the specific offence believed to have been committed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0024.html

http://www.dublins2s.com/content/rights-stopped-arrested-garda

robinph · 19-06-2013 12:43PM

bumper234 wrote: »

OK

You are walking down the road, A crime was commited 15 minutes ago, You are unaware of this when a Garda car pulls up and the driver gets out and asks you your name and address. You refuse to supply this and you are arrested, you think that you have a right to sue for wrongful arrest?

What if the garda now informs you that an offence was commited in the area and someone fitting your description was reported leaving the scene of the crime? Would you still refuse to supply your details?

If he was doing his job properly then he should also then tell you about the crime that he's investigating and ask if you know anything about it. Otherwise he could be missing out on getting some useful witness information.

If they just stand there and demand your details then you have been given no reason to provide that information, so why should you?
If they tell you there was a <something> just happened down the road, can you tell me who you are, did you see anything, what have you just been up to etc then there is no reason not to comply with their request and they have justified their asking of the questions. Not to comply in that situation could be seen as suspicious.

They can't just ask you for your details because they are bored.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 12:50PM

robinph wrote: »

If he was doing his job properly then he should also then tell you about the crime that he's investigating and ask if you know anything about it. Otherwise he could be missing out on getting some useful witness information.

If they just stand there and demand your details then you have been given no reason to provide that information, so why should you?
If they tell you there was a <something> just happened down the road, can you tell me who you are, did you see anything, what have you just been up to etc then there is no reason not to comply with their request and they have justified their asking of the questions. Not to comply in that situation could be seen as suspicious.

They can't just ask you for your details because they are bored.

I never stated that they could just ask you because they are bored i am saying that if they have reasonable suspicion then they have every right to ask you and if you refuse then they can arrest you and hold you in a cell until they can ascertain your identity.

This is not about letting AGS stomp all over your or mine civil liberties and if a garda just strolled up to me out of the blue and said what's your name and address i would also ask why he needed to know. This is about people thinking that even after a garda has given you a reason to ask (crime committed recently) they still think they have every right to refuse to give this information and be on their merry way.

The truth is that if a garda thinks you may have been involved in a crime and you refuse to answer the name/adress questions it is likely you will end up being held until identification is made and there will be no lump sum payout for "unlawful/wrongful arrest" as one poster has claimed.

RustyNut · 19-06-2013 01:00PM

bumper234 wrote: »

The full statement i made is this but you just chose to jump on the bolded part.

I quoted the factually incorrect part.

bumper234 wrote: »

People should also understand that the AGS have a tough job to do and sometimes just SOMETIMES they may be stopping you because a (serious?) crime has been committed and they are looking for the perpetrator. By refusing to answer a couple of simple questions you are not only wasting police time but also possibly helping a criminal get away by tying up resources that could be used to continue the search.

This is one of the circumstance in which you are obliged to identify yourself to AGS and rightly so, this is one of many powers given to them by sociaty to facilitate them in doing the tough job they do.

bumper234 wrote: »

I don't think so

The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24 entitles a garda to demand name and address where they reasonably suspect that that a person has committed an offence. A failure to comply is an arrestable offence.

The person of whom the demand is made must be informed of the reasonable suspicion and the consequence of the failure to comply. Plain language is required to be used by the garda in explaining the specific offence believed to have been committed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0024.html

http://www.dublins2s.com/content/rights-stopped-arrested-garda

Oh I do.

In your example I was asked a question, didn't answer,was arrested.

Anything that happened after that is irrelevant.

In the real world this must happen first.

The person of whom the demand is made must be informed of the reasonable suspicion and the consequence of the failure to comply. Plain language is required to be used by the garda in explaining the specific offence believed to have been committed.

We are given rights both in law and by BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, you should read up on them.

crazygeryy · 19-06-2013 01:19PM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

This is the correct answer.

This is why I fucking hate airports and flying... having people watch me to see if I'm acting nervous makes me nervous. Especially when, based on their perception (or level of boredom), I can be detained, strip-searched and asked personal questions to see if that makes me even more nervous.

BE]

exactly ,every time im asked i know i look like i have ten pounds of cocaine shoved up my arse.
not a nice feeling.
best just to answer all their questions every one goes home happy.

Ken. · 19-06-2013 01:27PM

Cop asks stuff=why you asking?
Airport police ask stuff=yes sir,no sir,three bags full sir.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 01:42PM

RustyNut wrote: »

I quoted the factually incorrect part.

This is one of the circumstance in which you are obliged to identify yourself to AGS and rightly so, this is one of many powers given to them by sociaty to facilitate them in doing the tough job they do.

RustyNut wrote: »

Oh I do.

In your example I was asked a question, didn't answer,was arrested.

Anything that happened after that is irrelevant.

In the real world this must happen first.

The person of whom the demand is made must be informed of the reasonable suspicion and the consequence of the failure to comply. Plain language is required to be used by the garda in explaining the specific offence believed to have been committed.

We are given rights both in law and by BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN, you should read up on them.

bumper234 wrote: »

OK

You are walking down the road, A crime was commited 15 minutes ago, You are unaware of this when a Garda car pulls up and the driver gets out and asks you your name and address. You refuse to supply this and you are arrested, you think that you have a right to sue for wrongful arrest?

What if the garda now informs you that an offence was commited in the area and someone fitting your description was reported leaving the scene of the crime? Would you still refuse to supply your details?

Equally, if you are walking along the street and a member of the Gardai stops you, if you refuse to answer any questions and the reason that they stopped you is that they are investigating a crime just committed, if you are evasive or you refuse to answer any questions or give misleading information it is possible at the scene of a crime that your demeanour could lead them to believe that they would have a reasonable suspicion that you are involved in the commission of a crime and they could arrest you.

This does not mean that the Gardai have powers to arrest on demand – it all depends on the circumstances of the situation and the purpose for which the Garda has to ask the questions.

http://www.bporco.ie/live/newstalk/536.html

I will expect your usual "study BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN" post any minute now:rolleyes:

Pappa Charlie · 19-06-2013 02:17PM

ken wrote: »

Cop asks stuff=why you asking?
Airport police ask stuff=yes sir,no sir,three bags full sir.

If the airport police arrest they have to hand over to the real cops so that dosent make sence! ( in Ireland anyway)

Canis Lupus · 19-06-2013 02:50PM

MadsL wrote: »

Did they ask for your phone number?

Thought not.

Is there a limit to the personal information you would give up if asked? Name of your partner? Where you work? Name of your boss?

Just wondering

And I have already shown you one of the circumstances under which I would refuse to answer, did you not read that?

Also, was this at a police/immigration/passport control desk or randomly inside the airport?

I never suggested you should give your phone number and I don't see a situation where in a standard check in say an airport a police officer would ask for that information or the name of my partner etc. A name/address check along with ID in an airport is absolutely fine imo. Your taking a simple PnC check to extremes. Should a policeofficer start asking me what hand I wipe my ass with then of course I'd want to know why they were asking but that questioning simply doesn't happen IRL unless they've a reason to ask it.

I was in an airport walking down towards the departure gate where they were stationed, I assumed they needed to up their percentage of white people stops for the day to deflect accusations of racial profiling against arabic people

gobnaitolunacy · 19-06-2013 02:52PM

ken wrote: »

Cop asks stuff=why you asking?
Airport police ask stuff=yes sir,no sir,three bags full sir.

They don't want to miss their flights or get a date with the man with the latex glove.

jd83 · 19-06-2013 03:12PM

I really hate these knobs who go around refusing to co-operate with the police when there just doing their job. Especially even more knobish ones who record it and post it on youtube how their been harassed by some garda who has just asked a few basic details about them.

There the same assholes who give out about them taking ages to respond to some crime, when there probably held up dealing with some twat who is taking up their time.

If there just asking your name or other basic information just give it to them. If they have wronged you or are rude or doanything unprofessional to you report them or take it up the ombudsman or whoever deals with complaints in whatever country you are in.

Soby · 19-06-2013 03:14PM

What have I started :P

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 03:40PM

Soby wrote: »

On a flight home from Edinburgh today police officer who I was stand beside just after the security check (was waiting for colleagues to get their belongings ) just randomly says hello asks can he get a few details off me.

Name
Address
Contact number
Flight Info

Was kinda so baffled by it I forgot to ask why but just being me gave it all. Was very weird. Any reason why men women and Ogres of AH ?

ken wrote: »

Cop asks stuff=why you asking?
Airport police ask stuff=yes sir,no sir,three bags full sir.

In the UK it's different. The airport police are actually police (the guns kinda give it away)

IM0 · 19-06-2013 03:46PM

was going through LA airport once with 12 hours travel and no sleep or hardly any and was asked by a cop casually "whats in the bxx sir?" my brain of course said "a bomb!" thankfully even then I thought what I was going to say first even though I had been up all night and cool as a cucumber said "my guitar amp" which it was, and more questions were asked obviously and answered and off I went :cool:

take home point? dont ever mess with saying silly stuff like that, ever, unless you have a death wish

its only about sussing you out if you act suspicious when asked anything, then its a numbers and risk game for them depending on your reactions

IM0 · 19-06-2013 03:49PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

If the airport police arrest they have to hand over to the real cops so that dosent make sence! ( in Ireland anyway)

have a go lets know how you get on with that

RustyNut · 19-06-2013 03:56PM

bumper234 wrote: »

^^^BRAVO!

This is what you do. I am not one of these "if you are innocent then you have nothing to hide brigade" but i am also not one who advocates wasting police time by refusing to answer questions. Simple fact is this....The gardai can stop you and ask questions and if you refuse then you can be arrested and held for questioning. The fact that they don't do this is a testament to their patience with dealing with idiots.

This is your first statement which is just not true

RustyNut wrote: »

As I said, under very specific circumstances you are obliged to identify your self and rightly so,if you refuse or do not satisfy the member as to your I'd you can be arrested to allow the Garda to establish your identity, not for questioning.

At no stage is refusal to answer questions reason to be arrested for questioning, in fact one of the first things you will be informed when getting arrested is that you have a right not to answer questions.

This was my reply

bumper234 wrote: »

Equally, if you are walking along the street and a member of the Gardai stops you, if you refuse to answer any questions and the reason that they stopped you is that they are investigating a crime just committed, if you are evasive or you refuse to answer any questions or give misleading information it is possible at the scene of a crime that your demeanour could lead them to believe that they would have a reasonable suspicion that you are involved in the commission of a crime and they could arrest you.

This does not mean that the Gardai have powers to arrest on demand – it all depends on the circumstances of the situation and the purpose for which the Garda has to ask the questions.

http://www.bporco.ie/live/newstalk/536.html

I will expect your usual "study BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN" post any minute now:rolleyes:

This just backs up everything I said from the start. You can not be arrested for questioning just on the bases of refusing to answer questions, however under specific circumstances you must identify yourself to the satisfaction of the member or you can be arrested for the purpose of establishing your identity.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 05:00PM

RustyNut wrote: »

This is your first statement which is just not true

This was my reply

This just backs up everything I said from the start. You can not be arrested for questioning just on the bases of refusing to answer questions, however under specific circumstances you must identify yourself to the satisfaction of the member or you can be arrested for the purpose of establishing your identity.

And they identify you how? By asking questions to establish who you are and they will also (if a crime was committed) ask you to explain your reason for being where you were. Jesus dude i didnt realize i was dealing with such a pedantic jackass that you were going to take such a stance on a technicality but **** it. If you wish to debunk this statement then provide proof (including links ) as i have instead of just saying "no thats wrong read the constitution"

number66 · 19-06-2013 05:59PM

Just though people should watch this, It's about the US but I would think it applies here to.

Don't Talk to Cops, Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

MadsL · 19-06-2013 06:44PM

bumper234 wrote: »

And they identify you how? By asking questions to establish who you are and they will also (if a crime was committed) ask you to explain your reason for being where you were. Jesus dude i didnt realize i was dealing with such a pedantic jackass that you were going to take such a stance on a technicality but **** it. If you wish to debunk this statement then provide proof (including links ) as i have instead of just saying "no thats wrong read the constitution"

You might try reading his post rather than insulting him first. There are limited circumstances under which a member of AGS can ask you to ID yourself.

wicklowstevo · 19-06-2013 07:02PM

MadsL wrote: »

Correct, they can ask for a phone number but there is no obligation to answer. The officer must also have reasonable suspicion and quote under which law if asked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_police_in_Scotland
http://www.scenethat.co.uk/assets/pdf/PoliceStopsLeafletEnglish09.pdf

My reaction is generally who are you and why do want to know?

Or looking for some reason to search your car. Saying nothing and presenting documents and refusing to ask further questions can often be to your advantage. For example, I have been doing a 3000 mile round trip working at festivals in the US recently - my truck is crammed with camping gear, answering "where have you come from" means giving the officer probable cause "they have drugs at music festivals" and a pain in the ass for me having to repack the truck. Being clear about my rights and not consenting to a search can save hassle, rather than causing it.

I'm not. Do a search on Ben Gilroy in this forum.

I'm pretty good on the US Constitution, especially the 1st, 2nd and 4th amendments. I lived in the UK for more than half my life.

Nope

In the US. C'mon.

Perhaps you might actually think about what your rights are, rather than just doing as you are told. I'm happy to be protected by the US Constitution rather than living in the proto-police state that is the UK (and Ireland which is increasingly becoming one too.)

for a fella living in a real police state like the US its no wonder that your paranoid that the police are out to get you rather than out to protect and help you. (I wonder if the NSA guy reading this agrees) . you do realise that as long as a cop is happy your not about to do something or have done something criminal or crazy then they aren't interested in you, a ten second conversation is usually enough to convince him of that. they look at your body language and answers to determine that. if your all twitchy and paranoid of course its going to set off alarm bells , what's wrong with being friendly and pleasant ?

Rasheed · 19-06-2013 07:05PM

Can't understand why someone wouldn't cooperate with a few simple questions by a guard/ airport security. Why make life harder and draw attention to yourself by being obtuse?

MadsL · 19-06-2013 07:09PM

qaf wrote: »

You haven't had too much interaction with US police obviously.

Would you call police stops in NM, TX, OH, AK and border patrol stops in AZ and CA not too much in 18 months?

corktina wrote: »

you were at an airport and someone asked you security questions....baffling!

Read the OP. Is a phone number a "security question"?

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Very true. But what MadsL suggested was not intimidation or harrasment. It was a policeman doing his job.

Just out of interest what part of policework is collecting innocent citizens phone numbers?

Getting smart/cheeking or refusing to comply is the biggest mistake you could make, unless you want to appear guilty of something.

Yeah, that innocent until provide guilty thing is getting a bit old huh?

And please don't start with the garda-bashing/tarring with one brush - it's unecessary, wrong and irrelevant.

I am incredibly respectful and grateful to LEO wherever I meet them. I often thank them for doing their job and shake hands after concluding whatever business. However, getting into things like "where are you after coming from?" is an unnecessary waste of time. Frankly, I do not want to give any cop a reason to subject me to a search. Nor, constitutionally am I expected to.

bumper234 wrote: »

Hmmmm

Would this be the same USofA That has recently been caught spying on it's citizens?

The UK certainly does, Ireland too I expect.

Would this be the same USofA That has KILLED it's own citizens in a foreign country?

Yes. Your point?

Would this be the same USofA That can hold kidnap you and hold you indefinitely without trial or access to a lawyer?

Only if you are a foreign combatant.

Would this be the same USofA That just throws the word "TERRORISM" into a sentence and this gives them the right to do what ever they wish?

Perhaps, did Ireland not pass similar laws?

Yeah seriously guy at the moment your so called constitution is worth less than toilet paper .

Perhaps, on a national security level. However it still afford protection on a local LEO level, and most cops know at least the 1st, 2nd and 4th Amendments.

The USA is more like a police state than any Euro country.

Remind me again how many US States employ metal detectors and knife sweeps on its streets?

KeithTS wrote: »

I was on my way to work, driving from Dublin to Limerick on Monday morning. There was a check point, my boot was searched and I was asked all about where I was going, who I worked for and a load of silly little questions.
know what I did? I answered them, I was thanked and told to have a good day, it was painless.

So you facilitated the Gardai in an illegal search of your vehicle. Well done.

Some people here must have serious issues.
It's a couple of questions, answer them and be done. If you don't want to give something like your phone number you could also ask what they want it for?

Wasn't that the point I made all along?

Folk post pictures of their womb online when they're pregnant and give details of their bowel movements on an hourly basis so being asked where you live is hardly stressful.

You might want to look up dictionary definitions of willingly and coerced.

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I'd just give them basic harmless info, 3 mins of annoyance vs. god knows how much crap they could use to make it difficult for you if you insist on being a bleeding heart civil libertarian martyr. I'll leave obstructionism to the jobless unwashed hippy types, my time is valuable to me.

Obstructionism is sometimes necessary to us "hippy types" to avoid having to spend an hour or two at the roadside pulling everything out of a vehicle based on a cop's "reasonable suspicion" that someone with long hair is carrying drugs. My time is also valuable to me.

Sergeant wrote: »

I am Sergeant of the House Ó Ceallacháin, Lord of My Bungalow and Freeman of Ireland.

Could not be further from freemanism as your rights under the law clearly exist, most cops rely on people giving up their rights and blabbing nervously. It is one thing to peaceably give a cop drivers licence and registration/insurance quite another to start answering questions like "what's your phone number?" or "where have you been?" without explanation.

bumper234 · 19-06-2013 07:28PM

MadsL wrote: »

You might try reading his post rather than insulting him first. There are limited circumstances under which a member of AGS can ask you to ID yourself.

You might try reading the whole conversation again then

MadsL · 19-06-2013 07:30PM

bumper234 wrote: »

You might try reading the whole conversation again then

Are you saying that a member of AGS can demand name, address and DOB under ANY circumstances?

Yes/No will do.

Police asking for Personal details

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