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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

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Comments

  • #3002
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,345 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    who_me wrote: »
    <precious Munster fan alert> I don't know. Munster seem to have a conveyer belt of scrum half talent - look at the current and previous home-grown 9s, and the clubs they've gone on to play for (Leinster, Leicester, Wasps, Perpignan, Bath, London Irish..). Quite often, the 3rd choice 9 at Munster would be a pretty solid player. Not so at the moment.. and it certainly hasn't really been the case in other positions in the backs. How often have Munster-originated outside backs been signed by other clubs?

    p.s. Williams is probably our 2nd choice, whether deserved or not.

    Just because a side has a conveyor belt of talent in a given position doesn't necessarily equate to them being likely (or having a right) to have ridiculous depth in that position, as some of the better players will move on if they're not getting the gametime they think they deserve, which likely was the case with TOL, Reddan, Stringer. It's has happened with Leinster with backs and will likely happen again with their young backrow and possibly Ulster getting in on the act with their glut of centres coming through.

    PS Williams started as a 2nd choice but unless Penney likes to select his 3rd choice over his 2nd for key games (Quinns, Leinster, Clermont) then I think Williams has dropped down the pecking order.

    PPS Trying to tie this back to the Ireland I can't see any of TOL, Sheridan or Williams having any involvement in the Irish squad for the foreseeable future (cant say that'll be a shock to anybody).


  • #3003
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Lelantos wrote: »
    Perhaps its time to phase BOD out & move Bowe to the centre. He's not needed on the wing as its one place where we have some strength.

    right now BOD is showing that at 33 he is still one of the best 13's around. Its all well and good saying have to phase him out. He has signed another year and unless he his injured or someone else seriously ups their game, no one is going to be taking that ireland shirt of him anytime soon.


  • #3004
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    twinytwo wrote: »
    right now BOD is showing that at 33 he is still one of the best 13's around. Its all well and good saying have to phase him out. He has signed another year and unless he his injured or someone else seriously ups their game, no one is going to be taking that ireland shirt of him anytime soon.

    Well considering that we are entering what will likely be his last season, a replacement for him has to be found. Otherwise, we are a year out from the RWC with only the one established 13 in the squad (Earls).


  • #3005
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    twinytwo wrote: »
    right now BOD is showing that at 33 he is still one of the best 13's around. Its all well and good saying have to phase him out. He has signed another year and unless he his injured or someone else seriously ups their game, no one is going to be taking that ireland shirt of him anytime soon.

    He said he's gone at the end of next season, so it would be stupid of Schmidt not to plan ahead. Drop him for the autumn series & try different combos then, at least prepare for the future & the upcoming world cup


  • #3006
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    BOD increases the chances of winning a grand slam/the 6N.

    Therefore, he plays.

    QED.


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  • #3007
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    twinytwo wrote: »
    right now BOD is showing that at 33 he is still one of the best 13's around. Its all well and good saying have to phase him out. He has signed another year and unless he his injured or someone else seriously ups their game, no one is going to be taking that ireland shirt of him anytime soon.

    He's 34 now, birthday is Dec or Jan? I'm not knocking him, he's arguably the best player ever to wear the green jersey, but, he'll be 35 come the 6nations & not preparing for the future would be folly on Schmidts part is all I'm saying


  • #3008
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We can prepare for the future when BOD retires or when someone plays well enough to take the jersey off him. In the 6N if you're the best player in the position then you play.


  • #3009
    Fireball07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    We can prepare for the future when BOD retires or when someone plays well enough to take the jersey off him. In the 6N if you're the best player in the position then you play.

    He did say for the AIs....


    Schmidt isn't stupid, he's always been known for rotation, and I think he'll try players in a few positions.


  • #3010
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,345 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Schmidt showed at Leinster that he's a master at rotation and I trust him to give someone else a shot in a few games surrounded by a strong squad prior to BOD hanging up his jersey. Even given the incompetent management of last year the likes of Scotland and Italy are definitely not going to be gimmes but I can see others getting shots in games like those. The damage of not having a trusted 13 to back up BOD (I dont count Earls in this at the minute but the new Irish setup could do wonders for him) has been done already and you can't expect Schmidt to risk throwing away his first season to make up for previous failings.

    Whether he tries out someone or not the lack of 13 depth is going to end up in Schmidt's lap sooner or later so I'm sure he's well aware of it.


  • #3011
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    He did say for the AIs....


    Schmidt isn't stupid, he's always been known for rotation, and I think he'll try players in a few positions.

    Never rotated in certain key positions though.

    Even for the AIs, I'd like to see BOD rested for the Samoa game but that's it. I think people overrate the effect of the odd test in terms of progressing a young player and I think victories over Australia and NZ are more important than one test for an inferior player.


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  • #3012
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    We can prepare for the future when BOD retires or when someone plays well enough to take the jersey off him. In the 6N if you're the best player in the position then you play.

    And that's why I said drop him for the autumn series, look at other combos at 13 & 12, if he's still the best option come the 6n, then great, but it's folly not to plan ahead


  • #3013
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,058 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    There is a three match tour of Argentina in June 2014, then there will be at least 3 tests in November 2014, followed by the 2015 6Ns and then probably 4 warm up games.

    Not that I particularly agree with developing squads to World Cup cycles there will be about 15 tests between BODs planned retirement and the 2015 WC. That is loads of time to blood someone.


  • #3014
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    He did say for the AIs....
    .

    We've a great opportunity this November because, unlike previous years, we have three very hard matches so there is genuine opposition to test whoever is picked.

    I'd like to see a bit of mixing and matching for the Samoa and Australia games then go all out for the NZ game.


  • #3015
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Schmidt showed at Leinster that he's a master at rotation and I trust him to give someone else a shot in a few games surrounded by a strong squad prior to BOD hanging up his jersey.

    I don't. Schmidt never rotated BOD, Isa, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip or SOB.

    There is no one within an arse's roar of BOD at centre. He plays every 6N game to give us the best chance of winning the damn thing. There is going to be a ****ing massive drop off once he retires whether or not some backup gets a game against Scotland or not.


  • #3016
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,612 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Lelantos wrote: »
    He said he's gone at the end of next season, so it would be stupid of Schmidt not to plan ahead. Drop him for the autumn series & try different combos then, at least prepare for the future & the upcoming world cup


    Do you actually think that Schmidt is going to drop him for australia and the all blacks??.. not a chance in hell.


  • #3017
    Fireball07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Never rotated in certain key positions though.

    Even for the AIs, I'd like to see BOD rested for the Samoa game but that's it. I think people overrate the effect of the odd test in terms of progressing a young player and I think victories over Australia and NZ are more important than one test for an inferior player.

    No, but he's got to be aware that BOD's time is nearly up... a successor is needed, I'd expect him to rotate a bit.


  • #3018
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Lelantos wrote: »
    And that's why I said drop him for the autumn series, look at other combos at 13 & 12, if he's still the best option come the 6n, then great, but it's folly not to plan ahead

    Beating NZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Blooding" a new 13.


  • #3019
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    No, but he's got to be aware that BOD's time is nearly up... a successor is needed, I'd expect him to rotate a bit.

    Why?

    What possible difference will playing I don't even know who against Scotland in the 6N. Will it make us massively stronger come the RWC (the focus on which I detest anyway)? No.

    You rotate when you have players who bring different aspects to a game or when you want to keep things fresh. BOD doesn't get rotated, he starts.


  • #3020
    Lelantos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Beating NZ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Blooding" a new 13.

    Second part is likely, first isn't


  • #3021
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,345 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I don't. Schmidt never rotated BOD, Isa, Kearney, Sexton, Heaslip or SOB.

    There is no one within an arse's roar of BOD at centre. He plays every 6N game to give us the best chance of winning the damn thing. There is going to be a ****ing massive drop off once he retires whether or not some backup gets a game against Scotland or not.

    I disagree on the rotation. All the above bar Isa were rested due to the player welfare program and as a result the likes of O'Malley, Conway, D. Kearney, Madigan, Ruddock, Dippy have been able to step up into the positions the players you listed filled when when required for Heineken cup/important other games. He rotated successfully as not only did the others get game time in lower profile/less competitive games, he also kept winning the majority of them.

    I can see/hope Schmidt employs the same style as Ireland coach, give players exposure in lower end games with a shell of a solid squad so that they're ready to step up later when necessary.


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  • #3022
    matTNT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    Who is this new 13 does everyone think? Can Olding play there? I'd love to see the pure creativity of a backline with Murray/Madigan/Zebo/Marshall/Olding/Bowe/Kearney


  • #3023
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Why?

    What possible difference will playing I don't even know who against Scotland in the 6N. Will it make us massively stronger come the RWC (the focus on which I detest anyway)? No.

    I think the answer to that is 'yes'. When BOD finishes I'd much rather have a tried and tested 13 ready to step in than a complete drop off into uncertainty and inexperience. You need some succession planning. We shouldn't need BOD against the likes of Italy or Scotland anyway.


  • #3024
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    matTNT wrote: »
    Who is this new 13 does everyone think? Can Olding play there? I'd love to see the pure creativity of a backline with Murray/Madigan/Zebo/Marshall/Olding/Bowe/Kearney

    That could be glorious. I'd switch Madigan for Sexton though.


  • #3025
    matTNT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 351 ✭✭matTNT


    matTNT wrote: »
    Who is this new 13 does everyone think? Can Olding play there? I'd love to see the pure creativity of a backline with Murray/Sexton/Zebo/Marshall/Olding/Bowe/Madigan

    Fixed* That's a backline for sheer creativity.


  • #3026
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    I disagree on the rotation. All the above bar Isa were rested due to the player welfare program and as a result the likes of O'Malley, Conway, D. Kearney, Madigan, Ruddock, Dippy have been able to step up into the positions the players you listed filled when when required for Heineken cup/important other games. He rotated successfully as not only did the others get game time in lower profile/less competitive games, he also kept winning the majority of them.

    They were never, ever rested in a HEC game (or the Rabo run in). The only mid-season Rabo game equivalent Ireland have is the Samoa game and I expect to see plenty rotation for that. 6N is HEC time and BOD will start.

    I would be a lot more ok with the idea of rotating someone into the 13 jersey if someone was putting their hand up. But they aren't. Cave is the closest and he's simply nowhere near BOD and no amount of games against Scotland will change that. So you give yourself the best chance of winning the 6N.


  • #3027
    Fireball07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    A game for Cave against Samoa, while good opposition, if he's surrounded by other sub players isn't going to show whether he's good enough to be our long-term 13. I'd like to see him given a chance with a full-strength team tbh.

    We know he's not as good BOD, but do we then have to go through a trial period when BOD eventually leaves? Which could cost us in the AIs the following year.


  • #3028
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    A game for Cave against Samoa, while good opposition, if he's surrounded by other sub players isn't going to show whether he's good enough to be our long-term 13. I'd like to see him given a chance with a full-strength team tbh.

    We know he's not as good BOD, but do we then have to go through a trial period when BOD eventually leaves? Which could cost us in the AIs the following year.

    Do you think Cave playing against Aus this autumn will somehow make him a massively better player? We're going to go through a trough when BOD retires anyway, I don't understand the desire to accelerate that while he's still here.


  • #3029
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    I'd be aiming to bring Marshall or Olding through at 13 tbh, rather than Cave. Cave, while solid, doesn't seem spectacular at international level. The two younger Ulster lads have a bit of a spark about them, and I think gametime would be beneficial for them.


  • #3030
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Do you think Cave playing against Aus this autumn will somehow make him a massively better player? We're going to go through a trough when BOD retires anyway, I don't understand the desire to accelerate that while he's still here.

    Its about developing a squad. Would you commend Kidney for how he managed the Munster squad while they were at their peak.


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  • #3031
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,345 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They were never, ever rested in a HEC game (or the Rabo run in). The only mid-season Rabo game equivalent Ireland have is the Samoa game and I expect to see plenty rotation for that. 6N is HEC time and BOD will start.

    We'll have to agree to disagree. I'd put Ireland playing Italy and Scotland at home on par with HC group games against sides you're expected to beat even if you're minus a few players.

    I think it's madness and down right unfair to be calling for someone else to be shifted in for all the AI's (I mean unfair to the player being dropped in against Aus/NZ.

    PS: Leinster rested BOD and Healy (and started the very green Luke McGrath) in a must win Ospreys game and rested a number of players for the Amlin final at the end of the season this year and pretty much stated that SOB would have been starting more games in the final phase if they really needed him. I'm sure if I went back through the years theres been games that many of the players you've listed have sat out HC games against weaker opposition in the pool phases, be it through a niggle or whatever, where they'd have definitely started if it was a knockout game.


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