Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

Timothy Bryce · 14-06-2013 02:52PM

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I'm not much of a fan of Kiss'. Ever since he started double-jobbing, everything he is responsible for has gone to crap. His period as a head-coach appears to be following suit. Even a great performance against Canada won't hide the poor selections and use of the bench. Hopefully Schmidt hasn't been involved in any of the selection.

Schmidt is quoted as saying (in that video posted earlier in this thread) that he's been purely observational. I think he said something along the lines of...

"I'm used to watching most of these guys and seeing how we exploit their weaknesses...now we have to see how to fix them"

Looking forward to when Schmidt gets in and gets the hands dirty good and proper once the tour is over.

Although, part of me thinks Madigan's selection at 10 on the tour may have something to do with the new HC given that Jackson was the 10 du jour for the 6N

Bridge93 · 14-06-2013 03:02PM

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Schmidt is quoted as saying (in that video posted earlier in this thread) that he's been purely observational. I think he said something along the lines of...

"I'm used to watching most of these guys and seeing how we exploit their weaknesses...now we have to see how to fix them"

Looking forward to when Schmidt gets in and gets the hands dirty good and proper once the tour is over.

Although, part of me thinks Madigan's selection at 10 on the tour may have something to do with the new HC given that Jackson was the 10 du jour for the 6N

Or it could be that Madigan deserved to start? Had a much better season than Jackson. Still don't know why Jackson was ahead of him for the 6N.

Buer · 14-06-2013 03:03PM

its_phil wrote: »

I might add, I do like Boss but when you have two good young scrumhalves on a tour of North America, surely they should be playing with the bigger picture in mind.

I know I bang on a bit about it but Paul Marshall is 28 in a few weeks. He has never been international class. He never will be. He can do great things but his basics, whilst they have improved, are still very poor.

I think the last 5 minutes of the USA game summed it up. One minute he makes a blindside break off a scrum, screaming up the touchline to nearly create a score out of nothing. Shortly after, we're going through phases just inside their half. He gets quick ball at a ruck and has 3 options: Toner on the short ball, Madigan standing wider on a skip pass and Jamie Hagan, standing deep out of the way as a support to Toner. He chooses to sling it to the tighthead prop, with the worst hands, in the worst position. Hagan spills the pass and we lose possession, one score ahead with 4 minutes to play.

I'd have had Boss starting last week and Marmion to be eased into proceedings. It would also help Madigan on his first start. This week, all things going well, Marmion to start. Possibly Marshall to bench and get a run in the last quarter to make something happen if the game was loose.

totallegend · 14-06-2013 03:11PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Or it could be that Madigan deserved to start? Had a much better season than Jackson. Still don't know why Jackson was ahead of him for the 6N.

Jackson was the starting OH for his province, Madigan wasn't. Not a great basis for anything but there you go.

Also, I can't imagine a player whose style of play is more contrary to Kidney's core beliefs than Ian Madigan.

Bridge93 · 14-06-2013 03:21PM

totallegend wrote: »

Jackson was the starting OH for his province, Madigan wasn't. Not a great basis for anything but there you go.

Also, I can't imagine a player whose style of play is more contrary to Kidney's core beliefs than Ian Madigan.

Jackson also didnt have arguably the best 10 in the world at the moment ahead of him. Madigan got a lot of game time at ten with sexton injured.
The fact kidney didn't pick him says more about kidney than Madigan as its pretty clear kidneys methods didn't work.
Madigan got the golden boot I think as well in the Rabo when Jackson wasn't even kicking for Ulster. All very well your ten not kicking when you've Leigh Halfpenny in the team but sadly Ireland don't.
Madigan was named at ten in the Rabo team of the year ahead of Jackson and there were people saying he was a potential outsider for the Lions.
I think Jackson is a fantastic player but for all round game I don't have him at Madigans level. We'll have to see what Schmidt wants.

Podge_irl · 14-06-2013 03:54PM

Jackson was ahead in the AIs and brought into the squad. Kidney doesn't change his order of precedence for players easily. He also always brings in the "next in line" regardless of their fit for replacing the player missing. But he's gone so let's not dwell on it.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 14-06-2013 04:13PM

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

Although, part of me thinks Madigan's selection at 10 on the tour may have something to do with the new HC given that Jackson was the 10 du jour for the 6N

Supposedly Kiss was going to give Madigan and Jackson a game at 10 each (with their provincial partners at 9), however Jackson got a bit sick and while available for selection they decided to leave Boss/Madigan at 9/10.

trouttrout · 14-06-2013 04:14PM

Wheeling Ross out again is absolutely ludicrous, especially considering Hagan's form

thebaz · 14-06-2013 05:13PM

its_phil wrote: »

Sure we want to win but I don't see the balance of winning and losing being based on Boss playing.

I've never bought that argument that it can damage players unless it is throwing them completely way in over their heads. But Canada is not over Marmions head (all short jokes aside ). I do believe you learn more in defeat than victories though.

I agree you learn more in defeat , but as a former scrum half myself, its all about confidence (or a lot is

) - these type of games are horrible games for Ireland - win , well everyone expects you to win ; lose , and the loss gets exagerated out of all context - this will be a close game , and one that Ireland are on a hiding to nothing IMO

Beery Eyed · 14-06-2013 05:30PM

thebaz wrote: »

these type of games are horrible games for Ireland - win , well everyone expects you to win ; lose , and the loss gets exagerated out of all context - this will be a close game , and one that Ireland are on a hiding to nothing IMO

Yes, it's a hard situation and traditionally that has certainly been the case when we've sent a touring side to North America to play a couple of games against brave, but ultimately sloppy US/Canadian teams. However, in this instance the games should have been seen as more than that. The US & Canadian setups have been improving in their professionalism and the crowds that they have drawn for this tour are excellent (20k+ tickets sold for the Canadian game tomorrow).

It's a really significant tour for the US & Canadians teams & they genuinely see these games as a chance to win against a higher ranked side. We can't be so cocky any more to just expect to turn up & hammer them as we may have done in the past, because a lot of these guys are now playing professionally and those who aren't have still come through a solid youth/academy structure, so it's not the thrown together sides of the past that we're facing now.

However, no matter how hard these games might be, we should still be testing our backup players to see if they're up to it at test level. After all, they have been included in these squads because they are being seen as potential international starters in the near future. Playing Ross in particular is a foolish decision, and while Boss deserved to tour for his form this year, playing him in both tests is also crazy.

padser · 14-06-2013 07:26PM

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Yes, it's a hard situation and traditionally that has certainly been the case when we've sent a touring side to North America to play a couple of games against brave, but ultimately sloppy US/Canadian teams. However, in this instance the games should have been seen as more than that. The US & Canadian setups have been improving in their professionalism and the crowds that they have drawn for this tour are excellent (20k+ tickets sold for the Canadian game tomorrow).

It's a really significant tour for the US & Canadians teams & they genuinely see these games as a chance to win against a higher ranked side. We can't be so cocky any more to just expect to turn up & hammer them as we may have done in the past, because a lot of these guys are now playing professionally and those who aren't have still come through a solid youth/academy structure, so it's not the thrown together sides of the past that we're facing now.

However, no matter how hard these games might be, we should still be testing our backup players to see if they're up to it at test level. After all, they have been included in these squads because they are being seen as potential international starters in the near future. Playing Ross in particular is a foolish decision, and while Boss deserved to tour for his form this year, playing him in both tests is also crazy.

Most first choice Irish players not selected for the lions need to play in these games. For a few reasons

1) if they don't its just our b team and much less of a development opportunity for the fringe guys who do play
2) the lions have already called up 2 Irish players from the tour and may call up more. They need to be match fit.

TheGoldenAges · 14-06-2013 08:38PM

Anyone else see any comparisons between Madigan and Quade Cooper? I know he's not near his level yet but a part of me wants a fly half like Cooper involved with Ireland.

Buer · 14-06-2013 09:27PM

TheGoldenAges wrote: »

Anyone else see any comparisons between Madigan and Quade Cooper? I know he's not near his level yet but a part of me wants a fly half like Cooper involved with Ireland.

Madigan doesn't have near the attacking game of Cooper who is, for me, the most naturally gifted attacking outhalf of the 21st century. Luckily, Madigan is far more solid in his defence and is also a much, much better goal kicker.

But I understand where you're coming from. Madigan has a cavalier attitude to attacking and loves to run the ball. He's as close as we'd ever get to Cooper in Ireland.

Tox56 · 14-06-2013 09:38PM

Buer wrote: »

Madigan doesn't have near the attacking game of Cooper who is, for me, the most naturally gifted attacking outhalf of the 21st century. Luckily, Madigan is far more solid in his defence and is also a much, much better goal kicker.

But I understand where you're coming from. Madigan has a cavalier attitude to attacking and loves to run the ball. He's as close as we'd ever get to Cooper in Ireland.

He does have the attributes though, the step, the pass and the confidence. If he learns how and when to use them, he could be genuinely devestating at the highest level. I know he was good this season but many times he was running when he should have passed and it just wasn't on, and most of his best games came against Pro12 opposition where he can totally dominate games. He'll need to add the decision making aspect to his play (something that Sexton has in spades) to do the same at international level, but I think he's capable of it.

There was a lot of hype around him this season but he's a long way from where he could be

Beery Eyed · 14-06-2013 09:40PM

padser wrote: »

Most first choice Irish players not selected for the lions need to play in these games. For a few reasons

1) if they don't its just our b team and much less of a development opportunity for the fringe guys who do play
2) the lions have already called up 2 Irish players from the tour and may call up more. They need to be match fit.

It's not so much a simple issue of not playing front line players & just putting out a seconds team. Some of the front line guys who weren't selected for the Lions will still be important players for a number of years to come & at least until the next World Cup, so it's only right that they would play.

However, in the case of Ross there is a real need to give other guys gametime at test level, before it comes to a potentially disastrous situation where he is unavailable & we're scrambling for someone with any sort of test experience.

In terms of the second point. This tour is not a place for giving gametime to possible Lions so that they can stay match fit. This is our, IRFU run tour, and it is important in its own right when it comes to development and planning for future international tests. Giving someone gametime in case they might get called up to the Lions isn't our concern. We don't owe the Lions tour anything, so we should be focused solely on our own interests.

Superbus · 15-06-2013 02:18AM

At least some good has come out of this tour.

.ak · 15-06-2013 05:17AM

Superbus wrote: »

At least some good has come out of this tour.

Brilliant.

Buer · 15-06-2013 08:28AM

Brilliant. The moment where Zebo pops out is genuinely hilarious.

CoDy1 · 15-06-2013 10:12AM

Superbus wrote: »

At least some good has come out of this tour.

Thats fackin brilliant!

Fireball07 · 15-06-2013 12:46PM

Superbus wrote: »

At least some good has come out of this tour.

Classic.

GiftofGab · 15-06-2013 03:11PM

Is the Irish match been shown on TV? If so, what channel?

trouttrout · 15-06-2013 03:16PM

GiftofGab wrote: »

Is the Irish match been shown on TV? If so, what channel?

And what time?

Lelantos · 15-06-2013 03:22PM

trouttrout wrote: »

And what time?

TG4 at 12.50am I think

Tox56 · 15-06-2013 04:06PM

Lelantos wrote: »

TG4 at 12.50am I think

Hopefully another entertaining match thread

ScissorPaperRock · 15-06-2013 09:31PM

Pretty mad that, assuming there are no injuries, Ireland could field a team in the AIs where 12 of the starting 15 would be Lions

Healy*
Best*
Ross
POC*
McCarthy
Ferris*
Heaslip*
SOB*
Murray*
Sexton*
Zebo*
Marshall/Olding
BOD*
Bowe*
Kearney*

15-06-2013 09:34PM

Wheel DOC and D'Arcy out and we could do 14!

dtpc191991 · 15-06-2013 09:34PM

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Pretty mad that, assuming there are no injuries, Ireland could field a team in the AIs where 12 of the starting 15 would be Lions-quality players

Healy*
Best*
Ross
POC*
McCarthy
POM/Hendo
Heaslip*
SOB*
Murray*
Sexton*
Zebo*
Marshall/Olding
BOD*
Bowe*
Kearney*

Healy*
Best*
Ross
POC*
McCarthy
Ferris*
Heaslip*
SOB*
Murray*
Sexton*
Zebo*
Marshall/Olding
BOD*
Bowe*
Kearney*

Is more likely, sadly I would say Fez's Ireland days are done. On another note have any details been released on Sexton's acing contract. I'm curious to know if he'll be available for the training Ireland camps or will he only be released during international windows?

Tox56 · 15-06-2013 09:35PM

ScissorPaperRoc wrote: »

Pretty mad that, assuming there are no injuries, Ireland could field a team in the AIs where 12 of the starting 15 would be Lions

Healy*
Best*
Ross
POC*
McCarthy
Ferris*
Heaslip*
SOB*
Murray*
Sexton*
Zebo*
Marshall/Olding
BOD*
Bowe*
Kearney*

If we're being cheeky try Fitzgerald at 12 and Earls on the bench. It's a good place to be but remember Wales had a whole 15 travelling on this tour

ScissorPaperRock · 15-06-2013 09:38PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Is more likely, sadly I would say Fez's Ireland days are done. On another note have any details been released on Sexton's acing contract. I'm curious to know if he'll be available for the training Ireland camps or will he only be released during international windows?

Maybe. But we can always dream! I think it was said that Sexton had negotiated release clauses for the international windows

Tox56 wrote: »

If we're being cheeky try Fitzgerald at 12 and Earls on the bench. It's a good place to be but remember Wales had a whole 15 travelling on this tour

True enough, but it's not a bad looking starting 15 at all! Even if it is more or less what we've been playing with for a while. Some serious underachievement. I also think the fact that these Irish players were selected despite the poor performances recently is a testament to their quality. While, for Wales, having won the previous two 6N and having their coach as Lions selector are definitely factors.

ScissorPaperRock · 15-06-2013 09:44PM

Thinking about it, I wonder if we've seen more or less the last of D'Arcy in green.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

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