When is a bus lane not a bus lane....

Zulu · 13-06-2013 8:16am #1

Quick one for you here.

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

I accept that very few in this country ever see a bus lane as anything but, and that we'll never crack the overtaking lane issue. So consider this thought exercise!

**Timbuk2** · 13-06-2013 8:19am

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

veetwin · 13-06-2013 8:23am

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

Except of course the exact opposite is the normal practice.

tagoona · 13-06-2013 8:30am

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

Anan1 · 13-06-2013 8:33am

Zulu wrote: »

Quick one for you here.

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

I accept that very few in this country ever see a bus lane as anything but, and that we'll never crack the overtaking lane issue. So consider this thought exercise!

Good question. I do seem to remember reading/hearing somewhere that a bus lane was actually a separate carriageway, which would presumably give other traffic the right, but not the obligation, to use it?

Fluorescence · 13-06-2013 8:34am

tagoona wrote: »

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

The problem is that bus lanes all have different times, some even 24 hours. So unless you know the area or manage to squint and read the small font on the sign as you drive past, you're gonna assume you can't use it.

Karma · 13-06-2013 8:37am

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

_Kaiser_ · 13-06-2013 8:38am

On a related question.. does a bus lane HAVE to have the hours of operation displayed to be considered legal - ie: is it enough to just have a lane with BUS sprayed on it?

There's one just up from the office here that fits this description that most people just treat as a regular lane, but I'm curious...

_Kaiser_ · 13-06-2013 8:39am

Karma wrote: »

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

I'd treat that as it says.. if it says Monday to Saturday and it's a Monday then it's operational (regardless of whether it's a holiday or not)

JazzyJ · 13-06-2013 8:50am

Be careful if the bus lane runs into a left turn only lane at a junction. I'd a motorbike guard give me a right telling off before at one of these saying I had to go left and could go straight on. I was turning left anyway. Nothing said to the taxi driver going straight on in front of me!

antodeco · 13-06-2013 8:54am

tagoona wrote: »

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

Shush!! Thats how I make it through dublin city so fast! Traffic backed up on the "right" lane, and me driving down the "bus" lane!!

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd treat that as it says.. if it says Monday to Saturday and it's a Monday then it's operational (regardless of whether it's a holiday or not)

Hmm, interesting. I would have assumed the Monday should apply like the Sunday, as technically the bus lane is operation during "business hours". Ill see if I can find any clarification on it!

mackerski · 13-06-2013 8:54am

JazzyJ wrote: »

Be careful if the bus lane runs into a left turn only lane at a junction. I'd a motorbike guard give me a right telling off before at one of these saying I had to go left and could go straight on. I was turning left anyway. Nothing said to the taxi driver going straight on in front of me!

This is a case of careless road marking. Usually where things are set up this way, buses routinely proceed straight from that lane, so either the buses are breaking the law or a car outside bus lane hours is not.

Or has anybody spotted an exception in law?

doolox · 13-06-2013 8:57am

It never ceases to amaze me how many people come out of side roads or exits from shopping centres onto multilane and buslaned roads and cut right out into fast flowing traffic on the car lanes rather than using the bus lane as an acceleration lane before safely joining the more heavily trafficked regular lanes when it is possible to do so.

The exit from ALDI onto the Long Mile road is an example of this.

Other people stay on the car lanes until the very last minute when entering the shopping centre dangerously cutting across the car lane and buslane at right angles instead of pulling into the buslane for a brief length to slow down and take the turn, leaving cars behind them in the car lane to continue at normal speed with being slowed down unduly.

Some people have no idea of common sense and use of road space. I doubt there would be a guard that would pull you over for brief and sensible use of a buslane to enter or exit a tight sideroad or commercial parking space mor safely and cleanly without disrupting other road users.

plys · 13-06-2013 9:10am

doolox wrote: »

I doubt there would be a guard that would pull you over for brief and sensible use of a buslane to enter or exit a tight sideroad or commercial parking space mor safely and cleanly without disrupting other road users.

I wouldn't bet on that. I got penalty points on two separate occasions for 'marginal' use of bus lane, where common sense was most definitely NOT applied.

By 'marginal', I mean cutting across the end of a bus lane by about 5 metres to enter a left filter lane (one example was southbound on Drumcondra Road approaching the junction with Clonliffe Road, for anyone who knows the area)

Zulu · 13-06-2013 9:15am

Karma wrote: »

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

I always treat it like it is also.

I tend to imagine the Garda saying to me: "what day is it?"
to which I reply "Monday, but..."
"and what does the sign say?"
"Monday to Saturday, but..."

djimi · 13-06-2013 9:23am

Would road markings not come into play when deciding if a bus lane becomes the normal driving lane outside of operational hours? When approaching a bus lane, the main driving lane is directed right and the markings will continue the lane to the right. Even outside of bus lane operational hours, would this not mean that the main driving lane remains to be to the right of the bus lane?

cormie · 13-06-2013 9:24am

I'm pretty sure I've read before that road traffic laws that apply on a Sunday also apply on a bank/public holidays, including pay and display parking etc. I've been using the bus lane on b/p holiday Monday's anyway

corktina · 13-06-2013 9:26am

could we not have a hidden thread for this topic, with invitation only access, other wise EVERYONE will find out the Joyous Secret of bus-lanes.....(forthcoming film...)

maximoose · 13-06-2013 9:37am

Zulu wrote: »

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

100% correct, and it baffles me how a massive majority of drivers seem to be incapable of understanding this.

I live in the city and don't drive too often, my main regular drive is from Phibs-Newbridge and back at weekends and I've come to know which bus lanes are 24hr (very few) and which are fair game during off peak hours. It's amazing how stupid and shȉt-scared of bus lanes the average driver is. Regularly see near misses where car A is in lane 1, car B is passing in lane 2 - car A is approaching a bus lane outside it's working hours but still goes to move to lane 2, ignoring the passing car and almost colliding.

djimi · 13-06-2013 9:42am

maximoose wrote: »

100% correct, and it baffles me how a massive majority of drivers seem to be incapable of understanding this.

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 13-06-2013 9:46am

Don't be crossing any continues white lines there now !

Corkbah · 13-06-2013 9:47am

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

law of common sense says that your supposed to drive on the left lane ....if the bus lane is not operating as a bus lane ...it therefore become the most lefterly !! ...yes lefterly .... lane.

and I did also say "therefore"

Cookie_Monster · 13-06-2013 9:54am

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

The 'drive on the left' from the RTA covers it.

That said does the heavy white line not signify a separate carriageway as such, meaning you cannot legally enter or exit the lane apart from junctions, I thought that was the case.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

On a related question.. does a bus lane HAVE to have the hours of operation displayed to be considered legal - ie: is it enough to just have a lane with BUS sprayed on it?

I'm fairly certain they legally have to display the hours in order to be a valid bus lane

djimi · 13-06-2013 9:56am

Corkbah wrote: »

law of common sense says that your supposed to drive on the left lane ....if the bus lane is not operating as a bus lane ...it therefore become the most lefterly !! ...yes lefterly .... lane.

and I did also say "therefore"

And traffic laws state that you always obey road markings as they take precedence over any other general law. In the case of a bus lane the traffic markings will usually direct the normal flow of traffic into the right hand lane, and Im not aware of any markings/signage that states that this is only dependant on the bus lane being in operation. Therefore I ask again, can anyone provide a link to say that a bus lane becomes the left hand driving lane when operational and that drivers are obliged to use it?

Marcusm · 13-06-2013 9:58am

Irish RTA regs set out the size, shape and colour of the sign plus width of road markings which must be in placeto signify a bus lane. A strict application of these would undoubtedly mean a lot of bus lanes are non operational but good luck with a DJ on that one. My favourite bus lanes have an additional much smaller "bus lane not in operation" sign. Clearly some local auths had too much money or poor planning. If road markings had to go down on resurfacing to save costs, surely better not to put up the blue sign but just a non operational sign.

How is the bus lane treated on a driving test; I did mine in the UK where non use of a bus lane out of hours was a minor - incorrect usage of road lanes - becoming an auto fail if repeated more than once.

For a year I commuted back to Dublin at weekends, arriving at airport at 6:30pm, picked up car and ht traffic at Whitehall church at 7pm, flip to bus lane and cruise all the way down to the archbishop's palace in Drumcondra - permitted passing on the left (not "undertaking", silly phrase) as slow moving, often stationary, traffic.

maximoose · 13-06-2013 9:59am

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

Rules of the Road:

Normally bus lanes operate from 7am to 7pm or during peak hours. Outside these times, all traffic may use them.

Outside bus lane times, it becomes a normal traffic lane. And so, normal lane discipline applies - stay to the left.

(Not that normal lane discipline is followed here either)

Marcusm · 13-06-2013 10:06am

djimi wrote: »

And traffic laws state that you always obey road markings as they take precedence over any other general law. In the case of a bus lane the traffic markings will usually direct the normal flow of traffic into the right hand lane, and Im not aware of any markings/signage that states that this is only dependant on the bus lane being in operation. Therefore I ask again, can anyone provide a link to say that a bus lane becomes the left hand driving lane when operational and that drivers are obliged to use it?

If you mean the curved arrow marks, you won't find those in the ROTR list f road markings which you must observe. I think they are informational rather than mandatory. The lane dividers, stop/yield lines etc are the mandatory ones.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

djimi · 13-06-2013 10:07am

maximoose wrote: »

Rules of the Road:

Outside bus lane times, it becomes a normal traffic lane. And so, normal lane discipline applies - stay to the left.

(Not that normal lane discipline is followed here either)

It says that normal traffic may use them, not that it must use them.

Normal lane discipline does not take into account the fact that the driving lane is directed to the right hand lane when approaching a bus lane. As I said, road markings always take precedence, so how can you say normal lane discipline applies when there are arrow markings on the road directing traffic to the right hand lane?

Uriel. · 13-06-2013 10:10am

In terms of the bus lane on a public holiday Monday, I generally (though with some apprehension) use them and that is solely on the basis that on public holidays Dublin Bus reverts to a Sunday bus schedules/timetables - e.g. a reduced service and no express buses etc..

It relates only to Dublin and there are more bus operators than DB, but most other operators (BE and Swords express for example, also have a reduced timetable on Sundays (which then becomes applicable on public holidays)

So in my mind, at least, if buses are operating to a Sunday schedule on bank holidays Mondays, for example, it is a reasonable argument to make that bus lane restrictions apply as they would/or wouldn't on a Sunday - e.g. mostly free access for all vehicles (save the 24 Mon-Sun bus lanes).

maximoose · 13-06-2013 10:10am

djimi wrote: »

so how can you say normal lane discipline applies when there are arrow markings on the road directing traffic to the right hand lane?

See post above yours.

djimi · 13-06-2013 10:11am

Marcusm wrote: »

If you mean the curved arrow marks, you won't find those in the ROTR list f road markings which you must observe. I think they are informational rather than mandatory. The lane dividers, stop/yield lines etc are the mandatory ones.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

That link says that that list is the most common road markings; not that it is the complete list. Even if they are informative road markings, they still show that the "normal" driving lane continues into the right hand lane. On a normal "one becomes two" lane road, this is not the case.

When is a bus lane not a bus lane....

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