When is a bus lane not a bus lane....

Zulu

Quick one for you here.

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

I accept that very few in this country ever see a bus lane as anything but, and that we'll never crack the overtaking lane issue. So consider this thought exercise!

**Timbuk2**

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

veetwin

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

Except of course the exact opposite is the normal practice.

tagoona

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Yes, when the bus lane is inactive you should use it as your normal driving lane.

The phrase "Keep left unless overtaking" applies here also. Overtake in the 'right' lane, then move back into the bus lane.

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

Anan1

Zulu wrote: »

Quick one for you here.

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

I accept that very few in this country ever see a bus lane as anything but, and that we'll never crack the overtaking lane issue. So consider this thought exercise!

Good question. I do seem to remember reading/hearing somewhere that a bus lane was actually a separate carriageway, which would presumably give other traffic the right, but not the obligation, to use it?

Fluorescence

tagoona wrote: »

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

The problem is that bus lanes all have different times, some even 24 hours. So unless you know the area or manage to squint and read the small font on the sign as you drive past, you're gonna assume you can't use it.

Karma

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

_Kaiser_

On a related question.. does a bus lane HAVE to have the hours of operation displayed to be considered legal - ie: is it enough to just have a lane with BUS sprayed on it?

There's one just up from the office here that fits this description that most people just treat as a regular lane, but I'm curious...

_Kaiser_

Karma wrote: »

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

I'd treat that as it says.. if it says Monday to Saturday and it's a Monday then it's operational (regardless of whether it's a holiday or not)

JazzyJ

Be careful if the bus lane runs into a left turn only lane at a junction. I'd a motorbike guard give me a right telling off before at one of these saying I had to go left and could go straight on. I was turning left anyway. Nothing said to the taxi driver going straight on in front of me!

antodeco

tagoona wrote: »

While the bus lane should become the driving lane during non-operational hours, I find most people are too unaware/(unmentionable) to do so.

Shush!! Thats how I make it through dublin city so fast! Traffic backed up on the "right" lane, and me driving down the "bus" lane!!

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd treat that as it says.. if it says Monday to Saturday and it's a Monday then it's operational (regardless of whether it's a holiday or not)

Hmm, interesting. I would have assumed the Monday should apply like the Sunday, as technically the bus lane is operation during "business hours". Ill see if I can find any clarification on it!

mackerski

JazzyJ wrote: »

Be careful if the bus lane runs into a left turn only lane at a junction. I'd a motorbike guard give me a right telling off before at one of these saying I had to go left and could go straight on. I was turning left anyway. Nothing said to the taxi driver going straight on in front of me!

This is a case of careless road marking. Usually where things are set up this way, buses routinely proceed straight from that lane, so either the buses are breaking the law or a car outside bus lane hours is not.

Or has anybody spotted an exception in law?

doolox

It never ceases to amaze me how many people come out of side roads or exits from shopping centres onto multilane and buslaned roads and cut right out into fast flowing traffic on the car lanes rather than using the bus lane as an acceleration lane before safely joining the more heavily trafficked regular lanes when it is possible to do so.

The exit from ALDI onto the Long Mile road is an example of this.

Other people stay on the car lanes until the very last minute when entering the shopping centre dangerously cutting across the car lane and buslane at right angles instead of pulling into the buslane for a brief length to slow down and take the turn, leaving cars behind them in the car lane to continue at normal speed with being slowed down unduly.

Some people have no idea of common sense and use of road space. I doubt there would be a guard that would pull you over for brief and sensible use of a buslane to enter or exit a tight sideroad or commercial parking space mor safely and cleanly without disrupting other road users.

plys

doolox wrote: »

I doubt there would be a guard that would pull you over for brief and sensible use of a buslane to enter or exit a tight sideroad or commercial parking space mor safely and cleanly without disrupting other road users.

I wouldn't bet on that. I got penalty points on two separate occasions for 'marginal' use of bus lane, where common sense was most definitely NOT applied.

By 'marginal', I mean cutting across the end of a bus lane by about 5 metres to enter a left filter lane (one example was southbound on Drumcondra Road approaching the junction with Clonliffe Road, for anyone who knows the area)

Zulu

Karma wrote: »

so, if a bus lane is 7am to 7pm, monday to saturday. Is it a bus lane on a bank holiday? As Buses run on a sunday service on public holidays...

I always treat it like it is also.

I tend to imagine the Garda saying to me: "what day is it?"
to which I reply "Monday, but..."
"and what does the sign say?"
"Monday to Saturday, but..."

djimi

Would road markings not come into play when deciding if a bus lane becomes the normal driving lane outside of operational hours? When approaching a bus lane, the main driving lane is directed right and the markings will continue the lane to the right. Even outside of bus lane operational hours, would this not mean that the main driving lane remains to be to the right of the bus lane?

cormie

I'm pretty sure I've read before that road traffic laws that apply on a Sunday also apply on a bank/public holidays, including pay and display parking etc. I've been using the bus lane on b/p holiday Monday's anyway

corktina

could we not have a hidden thread for this topic, with invitation only access, other wise EVERYONE will find out the Joyous Secret of bus-lanes.....(forthcoming film...)

maximoose

Zulu wrote: »

If a bus lane is open from 7am to 7pm, outside those hours, does the ordinary lane to the right become an overtaking lane (in effect)?

100% correct, and it baffles me how a massive majority of drivers seem to be incapable of understanding this.

I live in the city and don't drive too often, my main regular drive is from Phibs-Newbridge and back at weekends and I've come to know which bus lanes are 24hr (very few) and which are fair game during off peak hours. It's amazing how stupid and shȉt-scared of bus lanes the average driver is. Regularly see near misses where car A is in lane 1, car B is passing in lane 2 - car A is approaching a bus lane outside it's working hours but still goes to move to lane 2, ignoring the passing car and almost colliding.

djimi

maximoose wrote: »

100% correct, and it baffles me how a massive majority of drivers seem to be incapable of understanding this.

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Don't be crossing any continues white lines there now !

Corkbah

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

law of common sense says that your supposed to drive on the left lane ....if the bus lane is not operating as a bus lane ...it therefore become the most lefterly !! ...yes lefterly .... lane.

and I did also say "therefore"

Cookie_Monster

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

The 'drive on the left' from the RTA covers it.

That said does the heavy white line not signify a separate carriageway as such, meaning you cannot legally enter or exit the lane apart from junctions, I thought that was the case.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

On a related question.. does a bus lane HAVE to have the hours of operation displayed to be considered legal - ie: is it enough to just have a lane with BUS sprayed on it?

I'm fairly certain they legally have to display the hours in order to be a valid bus lane

djimi

Corkbah wrote: »

law of common sense says that your supposed to drive on the left lane ....if the bus lane is not operating as a bus lane ...it therefore become the most lefterly !! ...yes lefterly .... lane.

and I did also say "therefore"

And traffic laws state that you always obey road markings as they take precedence over any other general law. In the case of a bus lane the traffic markings will usually direct the normal flow of traffic into the right hand lane, and Im not aware of any markings/signage that states that this is only dependant on the bus lane being in operation. Therefore I ask again, can anyone provide a link to say that a bus lane becomes the left hand driving lane when operational and that drivers are obliged to use it?

Marcusm

Irish RTA regs set out the size, shape and colour of the sign plus width of road markings which must be in placeto signify a bus lane. A strict application of these would undoubtedly mean a lot of bus lanes are non operational but good luck with a DJ on that one. My favourite bus lanes have an additional much smaller "bus lane not in operation" sign. Clearly some local auths had too much money or poor planning. If road markings had to go down on resurfacing to save costs, surely better not to put up the blue sign but just a non operational sign.

How is the bus lane treated on a driving test; I did mine in the UK where non use of a bus lane out of hours was a minor - incorrect usage of road lanes - becoming an auto fail if repeated more than once.

For a year I commuted back to Dublin at weekends, arriving at airport at 6:30pm, picked up car and ht traffic at Whitehall church at 7pm, flip to bus lane and cruise all the way down to the archbishop's palace in Drumcondra - permitted passing on the left (not "undertaking", silly phrase) as slow moving, often stationary, traffic.

maximoose

djimi wrote: »

Can you provide a link to show where people are obliged to use the bus lane when it is outside of operational hours?

Rules of the Road:

Normally bus lanes operate from 7am to 7pm or during peak hours. Outside these times, all traffic may use them.

Outside bus lane times, it becomes a normal traffic lane. And so, normal lane discipline applies - stay to the left.


(Not that normal lane discipline is followed here either)

Marcusm

djimi wrote: »

And traffic laws state that you always obey road markings as they take precedence over any other general law. In the case of a bus lane the traffic markings will usually direct the normal flow of traffic into the right hand lane, and Im not aware of any markings/signage that states that this is only dependant on the bus lane being in operation. Therefore I ask again, can anyone provide a link to say that a bus lane becomes the left hand driving lane when operational and that drivers are obliged to use it?

If you mean the curved arrow marks, you won't find those in the ROTR list f road markings which you must observe. I think they are informational rather than mandatory. The lane dividers, stop/yield lines etc are the mandatory ones.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

djimi

maximoose wrote: »

Rules of the Road:

Outside bus lane times, it becomes a normal traffic lane. And so, normal lane discipline applies - stay to the left.

(Not that normal lane discipline is followed here either)

It says that normal traffic may use them, not that it must use them.

Normal lane discipline does not take into account the fact that the driving lane is directed to the right hand lane when approaching a bus lane. As I said, road markings always take precedence, so how can you say normal lane discipline applies when there are arrow markings on the road directing traffic to the right hand lane?

Uriel.

In terms of the bus lane on a public holiday Monday, I generally (though with some apprehension) use them and that is solely on the basis that on public holidays Dublin Bus reverts to a Sunday bus schedules/timetables - e.g. a reduced service and no express buses etc..

It relates only to Dublin and there are more bus operators than DB, but most other operators (BE and Swords express for example, also have a reduced timetable on Sundays (which then becomes applicable on public holidays)

So in my mind, at least, if buses are operating to a Sunday schedule on bank holidays Mondays, for example, it is a reasonable argument to make that bus lane restrictions apply as they would/or wouldn't on a Sunday - e.g. mostly free access for all vehicles (save the 24 Mon-Sun bus lanes).

maximoose

djimi wrote: »

so how can you say normal lane discipline applies when there are arrow markings on the road directing traffic to the right hand lane?

See post above yours.

djimi

Marcusm wrote: »

If you mean the curved arrow marks, you won't find those in the ROTR list f road markings which you must observe. I think they are informational rather than mandatory. The lane dividers, stop/yield lines etc are the mandatory ones.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/traffic-signs-road-markings/road-markings.html

That link says that that list is the most common road markings; not that it is the complete list. Even if they are informative road markings, they still show that the "normal" driving lane continues into the right hand lane. On a normal "one becomes two" lane road, this is not the case.

djimi

Uriel. wrote: »

In terms of the bus lane on a public holiday Monday, I generally (though with some apprehension) use them and that is solely on the basis that on public holidays Dublin Bus reverts to a Sunday bus schedules/timetables - e.g. a reduced service and no express buses etc..

It relates only to Dublin and there are more bus operators than DB, but most other operators (BE and Swords express for example, also have a reduced timetable on Sundays (which then becomes applicable on public holidays)

So in my mind, at least, if buses are operating to a Sunday schedule on bank holidays Mondays, for example, it is a reasonable argument to make that bus lane restrictions apply as they would/or wouldn't on a Sunday - e.g. mostly free access for all vehicles (save the 24 Mon-Sun bus lanes).

I am of the opinion that if bus lanes were available for general use on bank holidays then it would say so on the signs (as it usually does on parking signs). Its worth bearing in mind that bus lanes are there for the use of more than just buses, and to make the assumption that they can be used on a bank holiday because Dublin Bus run a Sunday service on a bank holiday is a bit foolhardy. You could well be right, but I dont think Id bother taking a chance unless I saw some official confirmation to say that a bus lane can be used on a bank holiday.

pippip

I think a few people on here are mistaking rules of the road for actual traffic laws.

They do not take into account every aspect of driving.

You get prosecuted for breaking traffic laws not breaking the rules of the road.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm fairly certain they legally have to display the hours in order to be a valid bus lane

Not true. All thats needed it the road marking and blue sign. Asked this question on here before, and someone contacted Traffic Corps who confirmed.

A bus lane with no times displayed is a bus lane at all times.

_Kaiser_

djimi wrote: »

I am of the opinion that if bus lanes were available for general use on bank holidays then it would say so on the signs (as it usually does on parking signs). Its worth bearing in mind that bus lanes are there for the use of more than just buses, and to make the assumption that they can be used on a bank holiday because Dublin Bus run a Sunday service on a bank holiday is a bit foolhardy. You could well be right, but I dont think Id bother taking a chance unless I saw some official confirmation to say that a bus lane can be used on a bank holiday.

I'd agree on this one

As I said above, if the sign says Monday to Saturday that's what it means. Just because Dublin Bus choose to run a reduced service on bank holidays is irrelevant. Equally too the "normal business hours" argument.

If it said Mon-Sat 7am-7pm then that's what I'd be going by myself, regardless of what "day" it is.

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

Not true. All thats needed it the road marking and blue sign. Asked this question on here before, and someone contacted Traffic Corps who confirmed.

A bus lane with no times displayed is a bus lane at all times.

But if there's no sign at all, just the road markings? That's what I was getting at

Marcusm

djimi wrote: »

That link says that that list is the most common road markings; not that it is the complete list. Even if they are informative road markings, they still show that the "normal" driving lane continues into the right hand lane. On a normal "one becomes two" lane road, this is not the case.

Point well made but going back to your original point, if you must respect the curvy arrow at all times, the bus lane is never open to normal traffic which is a bit reductio ad absurdum.

That being said, you've piqued my interest and it seems to be traffic sign RRM 006 as set out in reg 13 SI181/1997 (which may have been amended) and it is "must proceed". Taking this strictly, all non bus traffic must first move to the right then in order to drive in the left most available lane, must at some early stage thereafter indicate left and move into the bus lane. While this may seem absurd, it's surely no less absurd than believing the bus lane operational times are irrelevant. A typical inconsistency. Can't imagine many get fined for not using bus lanes and the curved arrow is frankly superfluous for them anyway - maye that's the problem.

Marcusm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But if there's no sign at all, just the road markings? That's what I was getting at

The law seems to require both but as I commented above, good luck getting that enforced if you're summonsed. (RRM = road markings, RUS= upright sign)

Bus Lane.
27. (1) Traffic sign number RRM 024 shall, in association with traffic sign number RUS 028, RUS 029 or RUS 030, indicate a bus lane.

(2) The sign to which sub-article (1) refers shall consist of—

(a) a continuous white line, or lines, 250 millimetres wide, save where one edge of the bus lane coincides with the centre line of a roadway between the bus lane and an adjoining traffic lane; and
(b) lettering consisting of the words "BUS LÁNA", the dimensions and design of which shall be as set out in the diagram contained in section 4 of the Seventh Schedule.

Del2005

mackerski wrote: »

This is a case of careless road marking. Usually where things are set up this way, buses routinely proceed straight from that lane, so either the buses are breaking the law or a car outside bus lane hours is not.

Or has anybody spotted an exception in law?

They usually have a "Except buses" written in front of the left turn arrow. Not sure how legal the writing on the road is. Though I have noticed on a few roads that had a left turn only arrow now have a straight and left arrow.

djimi

Marcusm wrote: »

Point well made but going back to your original point, if you must respect the curvy arrow at all times, the bus lane is never open to normal traffic which is a bit reductio ad absurdum.

That being said, you've piqued my interest and it seems to be traffic sign RRM 006 as set out in reg 13 SI181/1997 (which may have been amended) and it is "must proceed". Taking this strictly, all non bus traffic must first move to the right then in order to drive in the left most available lane, must at some early stage thereafter indicate left and move into the bus lane. While this may seem absurd, it's surely no less absurd than believing the bus lane operational times are irrelevant. A typical inconsistency. Can't imagine many get fined for not using bus lanes and the curved arrow is frankly superfluous for them anyway - maye that's the problem.

I think the point of the arrows (as I can see it anyway) is simply to indicate that the "normal" driving lane continues to the right when it becomes a two lane road with the bus lane on the left. To me it just means that the normal flow of traffic continues to the right. You can then move into the bus lane if you wish, but (for me anyway) if the marking indicate that the normal driving lane continues to the right of the bus lane then that lane remains the normal driving lane.

To be honest I have a feeling that Anan is correct in saying that a bus lane is technically a separate carraigeway rather than a seperate lane (meaning that a one lane road that then has a bus lane to the left is still technically a one lane road); Im pretty sure I have seen this written before, but having searched for it now I cant find anything to back that up.

antodeco

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus

HI



Generally they can be used on Bank Holidays, but you would need to verify this with Dublin City Council, as they outline the rules relating to same.



Regards

Pauline

From Dublin City CouncilL

The legislation applies that Bank Holidays are considered as a Sunday.



Therefore depending on particular Bus Lanes you can drive in them on a Bank Holiday, if the sign indicates Monday to Saturday.



Yours sincerely,


Darren



Darren McCarthy, Sergeant
Divisional Clerk,

DMR Traffic.

_Kaiser_

antodeco wrote: »

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus


From Dublin City CouncilL

I stand corrected so

djimi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I stand corrected so

Good to get some clarification on it.

Shame they couldnt put that on the signage.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

djimi wrote: »

Good to get some clarification on it.

Shame they couldnt put that on the signage.

Im not convinced until we get clarification off the the gardai since they are the ones issuing the fines for it.

Uriel.

antodeco wrote: »

Hi all,
Got a response off both the CIty Council and Dublin bus in relation to Bus Lanes on a public holiday.

From Dublin bus


From Dublin City CouncilL

It's nice to be right

paddy147

The M50 link road at Northern Cross/Hilton Hotel has a bus lane on either side of it.

It used to be a 24/7 bus lane.

Its since been decommissioned and is a normal traffic lane on either side again.

But they left the bus lane markings in place.

ectoraige

djimi wrote: »

Would road markings not come into play when deciding if a bus lane becomes the normal driving lane outside of operational hours? When approaching a bus lane, the main driving lane is directed right and the markings will continue the lane to the right. Even outside of bus lane operational hours, would this not mean that the main driving lane remains to be to the right of the bus lane?

If the road markings meant that traffic should be directed right outside of operational hours, would those same road markings not also mean the buses should be directed right during operational hours? The road markings don't have an 'except buses' clause.

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

If the road markings meant that traffic should be directed right outside of operational hours, would those same road markings not also mean the buses should be directed right during operational hours? The road markings don't have an 'except buses' clause.

Buses are directed to the right also; its just that during bus lane operational hours they can then move left into the bus lane. The markings tend to be arrows pointing right, and a diagonal broken line at the end of the bus lane. Technically (as I see it anyway) the bus is following the normal driving lane and then merging left (as opposed to driving straight into the bus lane), if that makes sense.

ectoraige

djimi wrote: »

Buses are directed to the right also; its just that during bus lane operational hours they can then move left into the bus lane. The markings tend to be arrows pointing right, and a diagonal broken line at the end of the bus lane. Technically (as I see it anyway) the bus is following the normal driving lane and then merging left (as opposed to driving straight into the bus lane), if that makes sense.

Following the same logic then, outside of operational hours all traffic can then perform the same "merging left" you describe. i.e. plow on straight into the bus lane.

djimi

ectoraige wrote: »

Following the same logic then, outside of operational hours all traffic can then perform the same "merging left" you describe. i.e. plow on straight into the bus lane.

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Zulu

djimi wrote: »

Of course they can. Thats not the issue though; the question is whether or not the normal flow of traffic is obliged to move into the bus lane when it is not operational, when the road markings suggest that the "normal" traffic lane is being directed to the right at the start of the bus lane.

Wut?