When is a bus lane not a bus lane....

Marcusm

djimi wrote: »

It is possible for it to be a seperate carraigeway (or however you want to word it) rather than another driving lane. A slip road for example would not be considered to be the inside lane, and would be considered to be a seperate carraigeway from the main carraigeway.

Carriageway was not my word; a slip road is separated from the main road by hatched markings which are laid out in law as an area upon which you shouldn't drive. I can't see that you can read one against the other. Frankly I think the inclusion of the arrows is unnecessary and confusing. It's plainly obvious that there is a single road with a number of lanes; for some periods of the day, one of those lanes is restricted for use by certain road users. At other times, they are open to all road users. At those times, I cannot see how that lane can be regarded as anything other than the left most driving lane (except where the bus lane is on the right of course).

Others will have different views, it doesn't bother me that much, I will use the bus lanes and often get there faster and with fewer impediments. I will not use them to illegally overtake/pass on the left but if the traffic in the second lane is moving slowly or turn right, I will pass it on the left as I am permitted to do.

wil

Anan1 wrote: »

I suppose that depends on whether or not the bus lane is a separate carriageway.

I like to know in either instance.

And as Marcusm suggested a separate carriageway should only be considered separate, if it is, S e p a r a t e
as distinguished by hatchings, barriers, mountains and counties.
Anything else is just another lane with restrictions according to the markings and signs.

If in the UK it is considered downright dangerous and foolhardy to tear down the hard shoulder inside traffic, why do we stick bus lane markings on it and consider it graaaand. N4 comes to mind.

So if traffic is light and making good progress, what is the legal position of a taxi driver (or bus) who choses to overtake on the inside, in a bus LANE?

Anan1

wil wrote: »

So if traffic is light and making good progress, what is the legal position of a taxi driver (or bus) who choses to overtake on the inside, in a bus LANE?

Like I said, that depends on whether or not the bus lane is a separate carriageway.

cormac_byrne

wil wrote:

What is the legal position on this form of overtaking?
I suppose that depends on whether or not the bus lane is a separate carriageway.

Anan1 wrote: »

I suppose that depends on whether or not the bus lane is a separate carriageway.

An 'in hours' bus lane is a separate carriageway, hence buses and taxis may legally overtake on the left. (To be pedantic about it they're not overtaking/undertaking at all as they're on a separate road)

An 'out of hours' bus lane is not a bus lane and therefore not a separate carriageway, it is simply a regular driving lane. (The fat white line is irrelevant, it's only valid 'in hours')

You should (rather than may) drive in an out of hours bus lane (i.e. the default leftmost lane), only using the right hand lane for overtaking.

An out of hours bus lane should not be used for overtaking on the left (even by buses or taxis), except as per the normal overtaking on the left rules (slow traffic, turning etc...)

It would make much more sense for an out of hours bus lane to still be a separate carriageway, but the rules on who may enter it would be relaxed.

I strongly suspect the current situation is simply a legal f**kup caused by our legislators not properly considering the consequences of defining a bus lane that sometimes isn't one.

djimi

cormac_byrne wrote: »

An 'in hours' bus lane is a separate carriageway, hence buses and taxis may legally overtake on the left. (To be pedantic about it they're not overtaking/undertaking at all as they're on a separate road)

An 'out of hours' bus lane is not a bus lane and therefore not a separate carriageway, it is simply a regular driving lane. (The fat white line is irrelevant, it's only valid 'in hours')

You should (rather than may) drive in an out of hours bus lane (i.e. the default leftmost lane), only using the right hand lane for overtaking.

An out of hours bus lane should not be used for overtaking on the left (even by buses or taxis), except as per the normal overtaking on the left rules (slow traffic, turning etc...)

It would make much more sense for an out of hours bus lane to still be a separate carriageway, but the rules on who may enter it would be relaxed.

I strongly suspect the current situation is simply a legal f**kup caused by our legislators not properly considering the consequences of defining a bus lane that sometimes isn't one.

Im not disagreeing with you, but have you got a link that backs up any of that? I looked quite a bit online when this discussion came up the other day and could not find anything that set down and laws and rules for bus lanes apart from the absolute basics.

Macy0161

wil wrote: »

I like to know in either instance.

And as Marcusm suggested a separate carriageway should only be considered separate, if it is, S e p a r a t e
as distinguished by hatchings, barriers, mountains and counties.
Anything else is just another lane with restrictions according to the markings and signs.

Are the Auxilary lanes on the M50 the main driving lane or not? Road markings can be used for separation.

Personally I take or leave using the bus lanes out of operational hours. They're not usually empty with taxis and cyclists as well as cars. Also taxis have (even) less qualms about stopping in them and blocking them out of operational hours. And finally, on the main route I would come across them out of hours, the condition of the road is worse in them - more potholes, depressed/ sunken manhole covers etc.

cormac_byrne

djimi wrote: »

Im not disagreeing with you, but have you got a link that backs up any of that? I looked quite a bit online when this discussion came up the other day and could not find anything that set down and laws and rules for bus lanes apart from the absolute basics.

I asked the RSA, it took several emails it was very difficult to get information out of them, they seemed to regard me as a nuisance to be asking questions, rather than it being a good thing to seek clarification on road safety issues.

here are some extracts with relevant info,

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Query sent to RSA


I have some queries relating to bus lanes

Bus lanes are separated form other carriageways by a fat white line.
I presume this makes it separate from the other carriageways and thus allows buses / taxis to 'undertake' traffic which is to their right.
I also presume that once in the bus lane they may not leave it by crossing the white line.
The only way to enter / leave a bus lane is at the start / end or at a junction.
crossing the fat white line is only allowed to avoid obstacles etc... (as stated in the rules of the road)
therefore once in a bus lane you cannot overtake a vehicle directly in front of you (as that would be crossing a continuous white line)

Am I correct?

Where there are 'out of hours' bus lanes the rules are exactly the same except that cars as well as buses & taxis may enter the bus lane.
Cars have the option of using the bus lane or not at their own discretion.

Is this correct?

There are many people who say that an out of hours bus lane should be treated as a regular carriageway.
i.e. cars should use it in preference to their regular lane (by the always drive in the left lane rule)
and the regular car lane is now for overtaking only (and the fat white line doesn't mean the same as a regular continous line i.e. you can cross it to overtake)

can the ROTR website be updated to state clearly this is not the case?
(or if I am totally wrong, clarification added to make it clear where I'm going wrong)

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Reply from RSA:

In reply to the first question the bus lane should not be used during the hours shown on the information sign.

The out of hours bus lane can be used by any vehicular traffic for normal driving, and if any driver wishes to overtake the vehicle in front of him he may do so on the right provided it is SAFE to do so.

A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes.

This should clarify the query.

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Request for further clarification, sent to RSA

Re: "The out of hours bus lane can be used by any vehicular traffic for normal driving, and if any driver wishes to overtake the vehicle in front of him he may do so on the right provided it is SAFE to do so."

Can you clarify if there is any compulsion for a driver to use an out of hours bus lane?,
or is it optional?

Can you point me to where in the 'Rules of The Road' or better still the 'Road Traffic Acts' the bus lane 'fat white line' (sorry don't have a better term for it) is defined so that I can see how it is different from any other continuous white line.

Re: "A driver MUST not overtake other traffic in a out of hours bus lane, with the exception when traffic is queuing in both lanes."

May a bus overtake other traffic in an 'in hours' bus lane, or is it restricted to when traffic is queuing in both lanes?

May a bus overtake other traffic in an 'out of hours' bus lane, or is it restricted to when traffic is queuing in both lanes?

Could you point me to the relevant road traffic act or other legislation where these matters are defined?

That way I could work it out for myself.

Unfortunately searching the Acts of the Oireachtas online for 'bus lane' brings up very little info

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Reply from RSA

(1) In answer to his first Question:- As stated in the Rules of the Road drivers should drive on left unless the intend to overtake another vehicle or to avoid an obstruction.

(2) A bus would not be overtaking other traffic in (an in hours bus lane) as the lane is only for use by Buses only and Taxis when carrying passengers only and is divided for other traffic by a thick continues white line,( in other words the bus lane does not form part of the normal carriageway during the times stated ion the information sign).

(3) The normal rules apply as stated on page 45 of the Rules of the Road.

(4) Special signs and markings for buses, bicycles, trams, rail and light rail information can be found at page 69 of the Rules of the Road.

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Request for further explanation, sent to RSA

1. Can you ask XXX to explain to me why it says in the Rules of the Road p69,
that I 'may' use an out of hours bus lane and that in his initial reply he states that I 'can' use an out of hours bus lane, but only when pressed does he admit that I 'must' use it.

If I must use it then why is it such a big secret?

2. Can he confirm that in the ROTR where it says

"Normally bus lanes operate from 7am to 7pm or during peak hours. Outside these times, all traffic may use them. You should check the information plate to confirm the time limits that apply."

that the word 'may' is misleading that it would be more correct to state either 'must' or 'should'.

3. Will the ROTR be updated to correct the misleading statement?
and if not then why not?

4. If the 'drive left' rule makes it compulsory to use out of hours bus lanes, then what am I supposed to do if I don't have a watch or other timekeeping device?

5. I am concerned that you are telling me that I can ignore the continuous white line when driving in an out of hours bus lane. ROTR says that's an offence worth 2 points & €80.
Therefore I presume many drivers will not cross it. More worryingly they will not be expecting other drivers to cross it.

Will the ROTR be updated to clarify this?

6. Can you please point me to the particular piece of legislation which differentiates a bus lane thick white line from any other continuous white line and specifically allows it to be treated as a broken line when the lane is 'out of hours'

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PFO received from RSA

Mr Byrne is now playing semantics’ with the words “I May” and “I Can” and a no stage in my replies did I use the words that “I Must” use it.

All of Mr Byrnes queries have been dealt with clearly and any other information he may need is in the Rules of the Road.

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As you can see I did manage to get some info out of them, but clearly they have no intention of doing anything to clarify the situation for the general public (i.e. update ROTR and/or change the rules re OOH bus lanes)

djimi

With all due respect to the RSA, they are only a body who publish laymans interpretations of the traffic law (and who quite often make a pigs ear of it). Id prefer to see an actual quote from the statute book to back up what the RSA claim. If they think that the difference between "can", "may" and "must" are mere semantics then it just proves that they are not a body whos opinion is much worth listening to.

mickmurphy18

When a bus lane is displaying a sign saying (bus lane suspended) does this mean it no longer serves as a bus lane and just becomes a regular lane ?

_Kaiser_

mickmurphy18 wrote: »

When a bus lane is displaying a sign saying (bus lane suspended) does this mean it no longer serves as a bus lane and just becomes a regular lane ?

Yes