Season 3 Episode 9: Have NOT read the books/BEWARE SPOILERS MOD NOTE POST #1

LionelNashe · 08-06-2013 02:36PM

THFC wrote: »

Just after watching episode 7 of the series (again) and I'm beginning to doubt whether it was the Lannisters who got to Bolton and Frey. When Bolton sent Jamie back to King's Landing Jamie told him to tell Robb that the Lannister's send their regards. Frey may still have just been sore over Robb marrying Tallisa, like we were told he would be, and Bolton and Frey may have conspired to get a mutually beneficial deal. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see Bolton declare himself King in the North and for the war to continue without the Starks.

I have been wondering if Jaime knew what was coming, or had a hand in it, because he did spend a few days with Bolton, but I think his remark makes it even more likely that the Lannisters were responsible. Plus the Lannister's song was being played by the band just as the killing started. That blonde woman he's travelling with won't be too happy with Jaime if it turns out he did know about it. I think Bolton would settle for being in charge of the north but with allegiance to King's Landing, in the same way the Starks used to be.

Mr.Prodston · 08-06-2013 02:55PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I have been wondering if Jaime knew what was coming, or had a hand in it, because he did spend a few days with Bolton, but I think his remark makes it even more likely that the Lannisters were responsible. Plus the Lannister's song was being played by the band just as the killing started. That blonde woman he's travelling with won't be too happy with Jaime if it turns out he did know about it. I think Bolton would settle for being in charge of the north but with allegiance to King's Landing, in the same way the Starks used to be.

:pac:

Syferus · 08-06-2013 04:06PM

No way Bolton wants to continue the war. That's so far left field I don't know where to start. He'll have to deal with the Iron Islanders and Mance Rayder, though.

pixelburp · 08-06-2013 04:18PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I have been wondering if Jaime knew what was coming, or had a hand in it, because he did spend a few days with Bolton, but I think his remark makes it even more likely that the Lannisters were responsible. Plus the Lannister's song was being played by the band just as the killing started. That blonde woman he's travelling with won't be too happy with Jaime if it turns out he did know about it. I think Bolton would settle for being in charge of the north but with allegiance to King's Landing, in the same way the Starks used to be.

Given the direction Jamie's story has gone, I suspect he is completely oblivious to events in Castle Frey; in fact I'd go one further and wonder if it might drive a wedge between Tywin & his son (if he was indeed behind the massacre).

We've seen Jamie grow a conscience of late, and he may be upset to learn the person who gave him his freedom has been murdered. Given his time as a Kingsguard is effectively over, and I suspect will be seen as a cripple by Daddy Lannister, I wonder if the Lannisters might finally split apart a little; Jamie & Tyrion (himself in charge of the North now) going their separate ways?

Either way, I'd be very surprised if Jamie returns & things go back to normal; the prodigal son's return almost always heralds some harsh realities, when the son realises his home is different & finds his old familiarities now utterly alien to him.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 08-06-2013 07:49PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I have been wondering if Jaime knew what was coming, or had a hand in it, because he did spend a few days with Bolton, but I think his remark makes it even more likely that the Lannisters were responsible. Plus the Lannister's song was being played by the band just as the killing started. That blonde woman he's travelling with won't be too happy with Jaime if it turns out he did know about it. I think Bolton would settle for being in charge of the north but with allegiance to King's Landing, in the same way the Starks used to be.

Forgot completely about the Lannister song coming on, watched the whole season again but still have to re-watch ep 8 & 9.
I still find it hard to believe Lord Bolton was involved with the Lannisters though, considering he didn't seem to be in any contact with Tywin, he kept telling Jamie to tell Tywin that he looked after Jamie, and that he wasn't responsible for his hand. I don't know what to make of it tbh.

Syferus wrote: »

No way Bolton wants to continue the war. That's so far left field I don't know where to start. He'll have to deal with the Iron Islanders and Mance Rayder, though.

I don't think the war will end because the Starks have been eliminated, loyalty plays a huge part for most people, and I can see a split coming in the camp, perhaps a civil war in the north? Also, I think it's Night's Watch responsibility to take care of Mance Rayder, can't see how the Boltons would know they're planning an invasion.

Also, I can't see either of the Lannisters taking out Tywin, simply because he's their father. Not a hope of it happening imo.

LionelNashe · 08-06-2013 09:36PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

I have been wondering if Jaime knew what was coming, or had a hand in it, ..........

THFC wrote: »

...........
I still find it hard to believe Lord Bolton was involved with the Lannisters though, considering he didn't seem to be in any contact with Tywin.....
.......

On second thoughts I don't think Jaime knew about it after all, because he semed sincere in his promise to Brienne that he would get the Stark girls back to their mother, and a Lannister always pays his debts.

However Tywin did say to Cersei in ep. 4 that if he went to war because the Starks kidnapped that lecherous little stump Tyrion, then he'd be prepared to do a lot more to get Jaime back. His tone implied that he had something specific in mind. I rewatched the series to see if Littlefinger played a visit to Walder Frey on behalf of the Lannisters but I don't remember any contact either.

Syferus · 08-06-2013 11:09PM

Who is going to continue to fight a leaderless and unwinnable war?

Nevermind the fact the Starks themselves have been routed and likely many of the Tully forces to boot, the Karstarks have opted put and so has Bolton, the biggest remaining player in the north. There is no way Roose Bolton gives the Lannisters Jaime back one minute to curry favour and attacks them the next.

The major conflict is over in this war, besides mopping up Balon Greyjoy and whatever magic tricks Stannis has up his sleeve.

Rosy Posy · 09-06-2013 05:10AM

My take on Bolton's change of heart is around Jaime's maiming. Knowing that it happened at the hands of a man in his service, and knowing that Jaime and his proficiency with a sword was Tywins pride and joy, and knowing that a Lannister always pays his debts, I think that Bolton sought to distance himself from the sh!storm and offer some kind of compensation in getting rid of the Starks. I also think that there had been tension between the Starks and the Boltons previously over he Boltons use of torture and the execution of prisoners. I wonder if when Bolton found the evidence of Tywins conduct at Harrenhall if he didn't think that he might be better suited to an allegiance with the Lannisters, with the possible reward of being appointed warden of the North at the end of it. I imagine that Tywin intends Tyrion to be warden of the North as Lord of Winterfell at Sansa's side, but that since (I'm presuming) the Boltons know that Bran and Rickon are alive (from Theons revelation) they will be in a position to contest this. I also hope that in these trying times the Umbers can be counted on to remain loyal to the Starks and protect Rickon.

The Corinthian · 09-06-2013 08:42AM

THFC wrote: »

I still find it hard to believe Lord Bolton was involved with the Lannisters though, considering he didn't seem to be in any contact with Tywin, he kept telling Jamie to tell Tywin that he looked after Jamie, and that he wasn't responsible for his hand. I don't know what to make of it tbh.

Any communication between Tywin and Bolton was off screen. Perhaps it was already under way by the time Jamie was found by his men, or perhaps he simply used the returning of Jamie as a sign of good faith to open dialogue between them. Either way, Jamie didn't need to know and Bolton was still at a point where the fewer knew, the less the chance of his planned treachery coming to light.

And it's likely that this treachery was on the cards, at least in his mind, for a while. The war had not been going well for Rob, and mistakes had been repeatedly made by him. There's also a number of scenes in previous episodes where Rob ignores Bolton's advice. His mother's release of Jamie didn't help moral and the internal politics of the Northerners much either.

In Bolton's position, I'd imagine he'd have felt that at the very least he should hedge his bets, if not completely switch sides to the one which was increasingly likely to win the war. No doubt he also realized that he could use the situation to promote his own house (with the Starks effectively extinct as a house and house Bolton in royal favour, what do you think would happen?).

Finally, the means; house Fray, who already had a bone to pick with Rob, would have been easy to arrange; they are his in-laws, after all. Tully involvement is more questionable; Ser Brynden's trip to drain the python was suspiciously convenient, although if he were involved in the plot I would have thought he would have remained to take part in the slaughter. Also Tully banner-men were likely killed as well, which would point to lack of Tully involvement. As for Edmure, he seems too benign and clueless to have had a part in any plot. So overall, my feeling is that the Tullys are victims, not plotters.

In retrospect it was all pretty inevitable once Rob began to make a pig's ear of things politically.

Pepe LeFrits · 09-06-2013 08:57AM

The Corinthian wrote: »

And it's likely that this treachery was on the cards, at least in his mind, for a while. The war had not been going well for Rob, and mistakes had been repeatedly made by him. There's also a number of scenes in previous episodes where Rob ignores Bolton's advice. His mother's release of Jamie didn't help moral and the internal politics of the Northerners much either.

It's probably worth mentioning that in episode 2, Robb tells Cat that "by the time Bolton's bastard got to Winterfell the Ironborn were gone" which seems likely to be a Bolton lie, very early on.

SherlockWatson · 09-06-2013 02:45PM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

over he Boltons use of torture and the execution of prisoners.

Don't recall seeing that in the show yet?

Although going by a lot of posts in this thread it seems the torturer is going to be a Bolton.

peace2804 · 09-06-2013 04:08PM

I noticed few things that might be relevant later on:

1 - each time a dire wolf dies there is an important stark that dies, Sansa's dire wolf died in season 1 and Ned died, now it's Robb's dire wolf that died and Robb himself died.

2 - Bran can control the dire wolf, does that mean that each Stark who was given a dire wolf will be able to control his at some point? I don't believe in coincidence, if these dire wolfs were introduced that means that they are important.

3 - Also, is there any connection between the life of a dire wolf and the life of a Stark?

4 - maybe this point was mentioned before but Stannis threw in the fire 3 worms and named 3 ppl, Robb, Greyjoy the father (can't recall his name lol) and the usurper Joffrey Baratheon.......one is dead..............coincidence or is that the work of the god of light.

The Corinthian · 09-06-2013 04:36PM

peace2804 wrote: »

1 - each time a dire wolf dies there is an important stark that dies, Sansa's dire wolf died in season 1 and Ned died, now it's Robb's dire wolf that died and Robb himself died.

Bit of a stretch; Sansa's dire wolf died early on in season 1, while Ned dies towards the end - so suggesting on the basis of Robb's wolf alone is reaching a bit. Also this was Sansa's wolf; logically she would have been the one to die, having 'bonded' with it, not her father.

2 - Bran can control the dire wolf, does that mean that each Stark who was given a dire wolf will be able to control his at some point? I don't believe in coincidence, if these dire wolfs were introduced that means that they are important.

No, Bran has clearly been different from season one, dreaming through the eyes of animals and now concious controlling them and is identified as a 'warg'. None of the other Starks have this facility or have displayed any symptoms of it.

3 - Also, is there any connection between the life of a dire wolf and the life of a Stark?

Maybe, but there's no evidence of this so far. Personally I doubt it; to begin with two wolves have died, while three Starks have bit the dust.

4 - maybe this point was mentioned before but Stannis threw in the fire 3 worms and named 3 ppl, Robb, Greyjoy the father (can't recall his name lol) and the usurper Joffrey Baratheon.......one is dead..............coincidence or is that the work of the god of light.

Possibly.

Well, I suspect in the next 24 hours much of what's been debated in this thread will likely be answered or moot.

tricky D · 09-06-2013 04:48PM

peace2804 wrote: »

3 - Also, is there any connection between the life of a dire wolf and the life of a Stark?

Well the direwolf is their sigil, so maybe more of the reason for that will out later.

peace2804 wrote: »

4 - maybe this point was mentioned before but Stannis threw in the fire 3 worms and named 3 ppl, Robb, Greyjoy the father (can't recall his name lol) and the usurper Joffrey Baratheon.......one is dead..............coincidence or is that the work of the god of light.

Balon Greyjoy.

One scene that has me wondering is an exchange between Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan:

Ser Barristan, You can use an extra sword.
Ser Jorah: You are the Queen's Guard Ser Barristan. Your place is by the Queen. If we are truly her loyal servants, we will do what ever needs to be done, no matter the cost, no matter our pride..

Could well not be particularly significant, but there's an exchange of looks between them and Dany's reaction which has me thinking there's more than meets the eye.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 09-06-2013 04:54PM

5 direwolves were given to the 5 Stark children, so there's no link to the 1st direwolf (which belonged to Sansa) and Ned. Also, the second direwolf was killed after Robb.

What's the story with the direwolf that ran away does anyone know?

tricky D · 09-06-2013 05:11PM

THFC wrote: »

What's the story with the direwolf that ran away does anyone know?

Nymeria (Ayra's) is currently running loose somewhere in the Riverlands, her exact whereabouts unknown.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Nymeria

Dempsey · 09-06-2013 06:10PM

tricky D wrote: »

Nymeria (Ayra's) is currently running loose somewhere in the Riverlands, her exact whereabouts unknown.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Nymeria

Which Direwolf was killed in Season 1 then?

garv123 · 09-06-2013 06:20PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Which Direwolf was killed in Season 1 then?

That was Lady, Who was belong to sansa and bit jeoffrey protecting sansa

Mickeroo · 09-06-2013 06:29PM

garv123 wrote: »

That was Lady, Who was belong to sansa and bit jeoffrey protecting sansa

Nymeria bit Joff, Lady was killed because they couldn't find her.

Duckworth_Luas · 09-06-2013 06:30PM

garv123 wrote: »

That was Lady, Who was belong to sansa and bit jeoffrey protecting sansa

Nymeria attacked and bit Joffrey. Arya let her wolf lose to avoid the Baratheon's obvious retribution.

In any case Cersei demanded that Sansa's wolf Lady, completely innocent, be put down. King Robert agreed. Eddard Stark, honour driven to the end, couldn't disagree with his king and did the deed himself.

garv123 · 09-06-2013 06:31PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Nymeria bit Joff, Lady was killed because they couldn't find her.

Ah ya that was it

appiuscrispus · 09-06-2013 06:37PM

What I find interesting about the whole shock about the wedding is how completely blind-sided people where. The books been out going on a two decades, I've never read it and have no intention to (I dislike American writers doing Medieval history, they lump it all together as if 800 years of history were all the same) but I know the basic lyrics to the Song. Why? Everyone I've met can't seem to not talk about it.

But I am interested in how it will all end. But I reckon I know how it will.

Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. (Incidental much better book)

shruikan2553 · 09-06-2013 07:06PM

Found the daenerys part disappointing this week. Was building up to something and then they come back and say its over and they won.

peace2804 wrote: »

3 - Also, is there any connection between the life of a dire wolf and the life of a Stark?

My girlfriend came up with a theory (shes an english student so actually thinks of this type of thing unlike me who just watches) that each of their wolves are each childs "starkness"

Lady was killed as Sansa became a Lannister, siding with Joffrey over her own family.
Arya and her wolf are both somewhere in the wilds and nobody knows where they are (except the hound who is with Arya)
Snow got the runt of the litter, the lesser of the lot just as he doesnt see himself as a true stark.
Rob and his wolf were both killed in the same manner and both trapped in a small area shot from above.(although rob got stabbed to finish the job)

I was terrible at this sort of this in english but there seems to be a connection, whether it was intentional or just coincidence I dont know.

LionelNashe · 09-06-2013 07:20PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

......

No, Bran has clearly been different from season one, dreaming through the eyes of animals and now concious controlling them and is identified as a 'warg'. None of the other Starks have this facility or have displayed any symptoms of it.

........

But, when Ned was killed and Bran dreamed that his father was dead, Rickon also dreamed that his father was dead, and that he was down in the crypt below Winterfell. I think that Rickon has served no purpose in the story so far, so his purpose is yet to be revealed, i.e. he will actually develop the same abilities as Bran. Bran just developed them first because he is older and had the catalyst of the fall to bring his talents out.

LionelNashe · 09-06-2013 07:26PM

tricky D wrote: »

One scene that has me wondering is an exchange between Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan:

Ser Barristan, You can use an extra sword.
Ser Jorah: You are the Queen's Guard Ser Barristan. Your place is by the Queen. If we are truly her loyal servants, we will do what ever needs to be done, no matter the cost, no matter our pride..

Could well not be particularly significant, but there's an exchange of looks between them and Dany's reaction which has me thinking there's more than meets the eye.

Jorah was actually repeating something that Barristan said to Jorah soon after they first met. Barristan had used the exact same words to tell Jorah that his status as a disgraced exile might mean that he wouldn't be seen as a suitable advisor to Dany if she ever made it back to Westeros.

I think it foreshadows some division among Dany's advisors; we also have Dany making eyes at the new guy and Jorah being a bit sidelined because of it.

googled eyes · 09-06-2013 07:45PM

appiuscrispus wrote: »

The books been out going on a two decades, I've never read it and have no intention to

appiuscrispus wrote: »

Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. (Incidental much better book)

I've never read Romance of the Three Kingdoms but I think I'd wait until I'd read both before I gave judgement on which was the best book.

Mickeroo · 09-06-2013 07:59PM

appiuscrispus wrote: »

What I find interesting about the whole shock about the wedding is how completely blind-sided people where. The books been out going on a two decades, I've never read it and have no intention to (I dislike American writers doing Medieval history, they lump it all together as if 800 years of history were all the same) but I know the basic lyrics to the Song. Why? Everyone I've met can't seem to not talk about it.

But I am interested in how it will all end. But I reckon I know how it will.

Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. (Incidental much better book)

It's not medieval history though? It's not even historical fantasy, it's just fantasy.

peace2804 · 09-06-2013 08:00PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Maybe, but there's no evidence of this so far. Personally I doubt it; to begin with two wolves have died, while three Starks have bit the dust.

Who are the 3 Starks?? I only remember Ned and Robb, Cat isn't a stark as she's a Tully thus she doesn't have the Stark blood.

lemon_remon · 09-06-2013 08:16PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's not medieval history though? It's not even historical fantasy, it's just fantasy.

wtf are you serious? did you even do history for lc ?

krudler · 09-06-2013 08:18PM

appiuscrispus wrote: »

What I find interesting about the whole shock about the wedding is how completely blind-sided people where. The books been out going on a two decades, I've never read it and have no intention to (I dislike American writers doing Medieval history, they lump it all together as if 800 years of history were all the same) but I know the basic lyrics to the Song. Why? Everyone I've met can't seem to not talk about it.

But I am interested in how it will all end. But I reckon I know how it will.

Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. (Incidental much better book)

You do realise GoT isn't historical right? It's fantasy, same as Lord of the Rings or any number of other books.

Season 3 Episode 9: Have NOT read the books/BEWARE SPOILERS MOD NOTE POST #1

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