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Irish woman raped in India

12467

Comments

  • #92
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    starling wrote: »
    FYPs
    COUGHignorantxenophobeCOUGH
    Oddly enough, I stayed overnight at the weekend with some Indian friends of mine where this issue came up. Last week I met with an Indian/Portuguese colleague who discussed how uncomfortable she felt when travelling in Rajasthan with her family.

    I'm also an expat who has lived in half a dozen countries.

    Whatever point you were trying to make, you've blown it in spades.


  • #93
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Femme_Fatale wrote: »
    Maybe she was rational and non hysterical and wasn't suspicious of every man ever in a sub-continent of over 1.2 billion, comprising many many different types of societies and cultures? :confused:

    That said, in your defence, for people to say Ireland overall has the same issue with rape, violence against women, misogyny, as India has, is... hilarious.
    It is not racist to state that some societies in India have disdain for women built into their cultures - anyone who says that isn't true is living in fantasy-land. A lot of middle-class westerners like to think of India as being all about yoga and elephants and mysticism and beautiful clothing and henna tattoos. Some of the ones I know were in for one hell of a land when they went out there to live temporarily.
    There is horrific, unimaginable poverty in India; the caste system still prevails in parts and it is like apartheid.

    However, it is not sensible or thoughtful to decide every last bit of it is like the above. That is not the case - the India of beautiful buildings and elephants and zen exists too. And for people to suggest women should just not go there at all, and that no Indian man can be trusted not to rape (I take it the Indian men who live and work here are safe?)... is the height of hysteria, and a pretty depressing attitude.

    Would you believe... it's possible to focus on both? Plus, problems in India are way worse than here.

    Lol
    It is rational and logical to be extra cautious when you are in an unfamilliar country where you will be more vulnerable. I think you're confusing a little sensible caution with hysteria and suspicion.


  • #94
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    It is rational and logical to be extra cautious when you are in an unfamilliar country where you will be more vulnerable. I think you're confusing a little sensible caution with hysteria and suspicion.

    It's not rational and logical to stay away from a country of 1.24 billion just because you're a woman on your own. Yknow, seeing as I'm sure all those 1.24 billion people aren't rapists :rolleyes:


  • #95
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    [/B]Starling when you start to insult someone you disagree with you've lost the battle dear.

    Calling someone"dear" as a way of snidely insulting them is hardly the pinnacle of reasoned debating either is it?


  • #96
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Calling someone"dear" as a way of snidely insulting them is hardly the pinnacle of reasoned debating either is it?
    I can understand his reaction - he had just been called an 'ignorant xenophobe', which is rather objectionable. I'd be calling the person worse than 'dear' if they were in front of me. As it is, I am trusting the moderators to deal with the personal abuse.


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  • #97
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    I'm not suggesting that all Indian people are potential rapists or criminals. I'm simply saying that it is not a particularly safe country for women travelling alone. It is my personal opinion that India is a sinkhole and I honestly wouldn't want to go there alone or otherwise.

    I don't know the woman who was allegedly attacked but I do sympathise with her. To be honest I'm really bored with the whole thread at this point. If women want to take risks and travel alone in India and go off with strangers they risk rape, thats their personal choice and they are the ones who will have to live with the repercussions. As I said earlier, rape is never acceptable or justifiable and it isn't uncommon in any country.


  • #98
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    I can understand his reaction - he had just been called an 'ignorant xenophobe', which is rather objectionable. I'd be calling the person worse than 'dear' if they were in front of me. As it is, I am trusting the moderators to deal with the personal abuse.
    I'm a SHE, and I call lots of people dear:)


  • #99
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mod

    Calling people xenophobic is a personal attack.

    Referring to posters with condescending names is uncivil.

    Telling people you have reported their posts is backseat modding.

    I could go on......

    Stop the sniping now or bans will be handed out.

    Fair warning.


  • #100
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    I'll retract the "xenophobe" thing. I sincerely apologise to all concerned. It is a bit much and probably not accurate. Should I edit it out?


  • #101
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    I'm not suggesting that all Indian people are potential rapists or criminals. I'm simply saying that it is not a particularly safe country for women travelling alone. It is my personal opinion that India is a sinkhole and I honestly wouldn't want to go there alone or otherwise.

    I don't know the woman who was allegedly attacked but I do sympathise with her. To be honest I'm really bored with the whole thread at this point. If women want to take risks and travel alone in India and go off with strangers they risk rape, thats their personal choice and they are the ones who will have to live with the repercussions. As I said earlier, rape is never acceptable or justifiable and it isn't uncommon in any country.

    If women want to take risks and live at home with their [husband/father/uncle/brother] and risk rape then that's their personal choice and they are the ones to live with the repercussions.

    How does that sound? Ridiculous? That's because it is. It's ridiculous to live your life like that on the off chance that something as horrible as rape will hapen to you. But I think my above statement has more merit than yours as I'd imagine statistically more Irish women are raped at home or by family members/aqcuantinces that they know than are raped while travelling alone in India.

    I always find it amusing that people are so concerned about what women should and shouldn't do to avoid rape yet if a guy gets run down by a car who's driving recklessly he's not told he should've been more careful crossing the road, if an innocent man is beaten to a pulp outside a nightclub he's not told he should've avoided nightclubs alltogether as they're known for trouble, if a guy is stabbed waiting for a bus at Finglas, he's not told he shouldn't be living in Finglas anyway it's a dangerous area.

    Why is that?


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  • #102
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    I always find it amusing that people are so concerned about what women should and shouldn't do to avoid rape yet if a guy gets run down by a car who's driving recklessly he's not told he should've been more careful crossing the road, if an innocent man is beaten to a pulp outside a nightclub he's not told he should've avoided nightclubs alltogether as they're known for trouble, if a guy is stabbed waiting for a bus at Finglas, he's not told he shouldn't be living in Finglas anyway it's a dangerous area.

    Why is that?
    Actually, I think that does happen. Perhaps you are less sensitive to it? First example that springs to mind was my g/f's brother getting punched late one night coming home. The first thing my g/f said was that he had been drinking and was walking on a certain road alone, and that he should have known better.

    I don't think she was saying that to excuse the person that attacked him.


  • #103
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    If women want to take risks and live at home with their [husband/father/uncle/brother] and risk rape then that's their personal choice and they are the ones to live with the repercussions.

    How does that sound? Ridiculous? That's because it is. It's ridiculous to live your life like that on the off chance that something as horrible as rape will hapen to you. But I think my above statement has more merit than yours as I'd imagine statistically more Irish women are raped at home or by family members/aqcuantinces that they know than are raped while travelling alone in India.

    I always find it amusing that people are so concerned about what women should and shouldn't do to avoid rape yet if a guy gets run down by a car who's driving recklessly he's not told he should've been more careful crossing the road, if an innocent man is beaten to a pulp outside a nightclub he's not told he should've avoided nightclubs alltogether as they're known for trouble, if a guy is stabbed waiting for a bus at Finglas, he's not told he shouldn't be living in Finglas anyway it's a dangerous area.

    Why is that?

    Talking a lot of good sense there jaffacakes. And to answer your question (this is just my personal opinion)
    Victim blaming helps people to discount the real risks that women (and men, to be fair) face every day.
    If we believe that "If I do xyz I probably won't get raped" it's easier to go about our lives without the fear that must come from acknowledging just how much of a threat there is. It's a comforting lie.
    When we hear that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, rather than a stranger in a dark alley, it's not pleasant to look at our family, friends and acquaintances as possible rapists (Note I think it's completely unfair and unrealistic to suggest that all men are rapists). Our natural reaction is "Nobody I know would do that! Rapists are sickos, not average normal people!"
    Actually most rapists are average normal people who commit rape, but of course nobody likes to think of any of their mates that way.
    The myths and misunderstandings about rape and sexual assault are just more pleasant an easier to live with than the uncomfortable truth. Human nature I guess:(


  • #104
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    starling wrote: »
    Talking a lot of good sense there jaffacakes. And to answer your question (this is just my personal opinion)
    Victim blaming helps people to discount the real risks that women (and men, to be fair) face every day.
    If we believe that "If I do xyz I probably won't get raped" it's easier to go about our lives without the fear that must come from acknowledging just how much of a threat there is. It's a comforting lie.
    When we hear that most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, rather than a stranger in a dark alley, it's not pleasant to look at our family, friends and acquaintances as possible rapists (Note I think it's completely unfair and unrealistic to suggest that all men are rapists). Our natural reaction is "Nobody I know would do that! Rapists are sickos, not average normal people!"
    Actually most rapists are average normal people who commit rape, but of course nobody likes to think of any of their mates that way.
    The myths and misunderstandings about rape and sexual assault are just more pleasant an easier to live with than the uncomfortable truth. Human nature I guess:(
    Do you think that my g/f was blaming her brother in the incident I mentioned?
    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Actually, I think that does happen. First example that springs to mind was my g/f's brother getting punched late one night coming home. The first thing my g/f said was that he had been drinking and was walking on a certain road alone, and that he should have known better.

    I don't think she was saying that to excuse the person that attacked him.


  • #105
    Aseth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 423 ✭✭Aseth


    I don't think we are going to agree on this one. I actually feel quite safe in Ireland(not saying you shouldn't be careful anywhere you live) I definietely wouldn't go to India any time soon. I am not stating all Indian men are rapists rather that it is a country where laws aren't anywhere close to the ones in Europe.

    And here, some more news:

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/04/18748464-police-american-woman-gang-raped-in-india-3-suspects-questioned?lite


  • #106
    Pumpkinseeds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,635 ✭✭✭Pumpkinseeds


    Jeez there seems to be a lot of hostility to the idea of taking personal responsiblity for your own safety. I never said women shouldn't take risks. If people want to head off alone to India or other countries with notoriously high rates of rape and then decide to go off with a stranger, fine. But rape is a distinct possiblity. It might not happen but if it does there's no point crying about it afterwards.

    As I said rape is never justified under any circumstances but people need to grow up. I'm really bored of the thread now as I feel like I'm arguing with stroppy teenagers. So I'm done with it now. No doubt it won't be long before somone starts another thread about the next rape in India and the one after that and after that ad nauseum. Incidentally my real sympathy is for the women and children of India who are victims of rapes that the world will never hear about and who live with the threat of rape because they are of a lower caste and therefore deemed to be worthless.

    Mod: banned


  • #107
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Jeez there seems to be a lot of hostility to the idea of taking personal responsiblity for your own safety. I never said women shouldn't take risks. If people want to head off alone to India or other countries with notoriously high rates of rape and then decide to go off with a stranger, fine. But rape is a distinct possiblity. It might not happen but if it does there's no point crying about it afterwards.
    Ah here, Pumpkinseeds...
    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Incidentally my real sympathy is for the women and children of India who are victims of rapes that the world will never hear about and who live with the threat of rape because they are of a lower caste and therefore deemed to be worthless.
    I've already mentioned the phenomenon of 'Eve teasing' in this thread, a bizarre practice that they need to address whether it is a symptom or a cause of the shocking cases of rape that have come to light in recent years.


  • #108
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Aseth wrote: »
    I don't think we are going to agree on this one. I actually feel quite safe in Ireland(not saying you shouldn't be careful anywhere you live) I definietely wouldn't go to India any time soon. I am not stating all Indian men are rapists rather that it is a country where laws aren't anywhere close to the ones in Europe.

    And here, some more news:

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/04/18748464-police-american-woman-gang-raped-in-india-3-suspects-questioned?lite

    I don't think your sense of safety here in Ireland is unjustified Aseth. It would be a crying shame if you felt unsafe all the time because we get an exaggerated sense of how frequent rape is.
    If one woman gets raped walking alone after dark, it'll be reported in the news, but the 100 other women who also walked alone after dark that night and have no problem won't make news. I've read that this happens with other crimes too, it's just a side effect of crime being in the news.
    The constant "advice" women get about "how to protect yourself from being raped" kind of increases this fear IMO, but it's horrible to live your life in fear.


  • #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Jeez there seems to be a lot of hostility to the idea of taking personal responsiblity for your own safety. I never said women shouldn't take risks. If people want to head off alone to India or other countries with notoriously high rates of rape and then decide to go off with a stranger, fine. But rape is a distinct possiblity. It might not happen but if it does there's no point crying about it afterwards.

    Seriously?

    Incidentally my real sympathy is for the women and children of India who are victims of rapes that the world will never hear about and who live with the threat of rape because they are of a lower caste and therefore deemed to be worthless

    That's where your 'real' sympathy is?

    Most people find it possible to care about more than one thing at a time. I can feel as bad for Dalit women in India as I can for the Irish woman that was raped. It's not an all or nothing situation.


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Jeez there seems to be a lot of hostility to the idea of taking personal responsiblity for your own safety. I never said women shouldn't take risks. If people want to head off alone to India or other countries with notoriously high rates of rape and then decide to go off with a stranger, fine. But rape is a distinct possiblity. It might not happen but if it does there's no point crying about it afterwards.

    Mod.

    Just wow.

    Banned.


  • #111
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    I've already mentioned the phenomenon of 'Eve teasing' in this thread, a bizarre practice that they need to address whether it is a symptom or a cause of the shocking cases of rape that have come to light in recent years.

    "Eve teasing" involves street harrassment and sexual assault in public places especially on public transport. It's pretty disingenuous to pretend that is limited to India.
    There are plenty of threads right here on boards where women mention experiencing such things very frequently, and you can also find plenty of posters refusing to take it seriously.


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  • #112
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    starling wrote: »
    "Eve teasing" involves street harrassment and sexual assault in public places especially on public transport. It's pretty disingenuous to pretend that is limited to India.
    Where was this implied? Are you going to continue trolling my posts, deliberately misinterpreting everything?

    So much for your fake apology for calling me a racist.


  • #113
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Where was this implied? Are you going to continue trolling my posts, deliberately misinterpreting everything?

    So much for your fake apology for calling me a racist.
    Calling it a "bizarre practice" implies that it is somehow unusual, which unfortunately is far from true.

    I called you a xenophobe, and I apologised for it, and I meant it, because it was over the line.
    However I won't be responding to you again, and please stop sending those abusive PMs kthxbai


  • #114
    Anynama141
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Anynama141


    starling wrote: »
    Calling it a "bizarre practice" implies that it is somehow unusual, which unfortunately is far from true.
    Calling it a bizarre practice suggests that I find it bizarre that you would sexually harass random women on the street, and rather than meeting public opprobrium, other people join in.
    starling wrote: »
    I called you a xenophobe, and I apologised for it, and I meant it, because it was over the line.
    However I won't be responding to you again, and please stop sending those abusive PMs kthxbai
    If you have nothing constructive to say and only abuse to offer, I think that is probably a good thing. I can only take so much abuse from another poster.


  • #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 53,068 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mod

    Anynama141, as you were unable to stop the sniping after an on thread warning to do so, and as you chose to send starling a pretty nasty PM, I think it's best if you take some time off from the forum.


  • #116
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    imtdub wrote: »

    Indian women are not treated as second class citizens,

    They are.


  • #117
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Anynama141 wrote: »
    Actually, I think that does happen. Perhaps you are less sensitive to it? First example that springs to mind was my g/f's brother getting punched late one night coming home. The first thing my g/f said was that he had been drinking and was walking on a certain road alone, and that he should have known better.

    I don't think she was saying that to excuse the person that attacked him.

    His gf sounds like a bit of a príck. I don't know the circumstances of the event but if the extent of it was that he had been drinking and was on his way home or whatever, minding his own business, and then got punched than no, that's not his fault.


  • #118
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Einhard wrote: »
    They are.

    Yeah see I think it's a bit too simplistic to just say "Indian women are treated in x manner" because we're talking about a huge country with a massive population, there are enormous differences between different areas and among different classes.

    It's also kind of oversimplifying to just say "women in x country are treated in x manner" because we are talking about a completely different culture. Depending on what markers you're looking at, quality of life for the "average" woman might be better in Ireland than in India. Certainly Irish women have a lot of rights that many Indian women don't. But it's not as simple as either "India YAY" or "India sucks!"

    It's no uncommon for Westerners to look at a different country - especially if that's in the developing world - and declare it backward because of certain aspects of its culture or certain customs. And this reaction is often problematic. It smacks of a feeling of superiority, that doesn't acknowledge that we're not perfect either. We might be better at certain things, but it's way more complex than just "Oh Indian women have no rights what an awful country full of terrible savages".


  • #119
    Norfolk Enchants
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭Norfolk Enchants


    Im glad that female tourism has dropped sharply in India. This should force the governments hand so to speak. Also, altruism is a good trait to have, but im of the adage that all charity begins at home. These lads run a billion dollar space program and have one of the largest armies in the world - aligned with the fact that the country is more resource rich than the whole of Europe.

    Sending a vulnerable 21 year old into India was idiotic by the NGO in question. Indeed, the department of foreign affairs issues a travel warning on their website.

    hope the girl is getting the care that she needs and wish her the best on her journey towards recovery.


  • #120
    Norfolk Enchants
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 208 ✭✭Norfolk Enchants


    starling wrote: »
    So how exactly can you be held even partially responsible for their actions?

    The travel warning for Irish citizens travelling to India on the dfa.ie website states that women should avoid going out alone at night. The NGO in question should have made this girl aware of the dangers and highlighted the departments travel warning.

    If they failed to do that in this case, well, heads should roll imo.

    Id proportion blame in their direction, not the girls.


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  • #121
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Norfolk Enchants wrote: »
    The travel warning for Irish citizens travelling to India on the dfa.ie website states that women should avoid going out alone at night.

    Disgraceful to see the Department of Foreign Affairs engaging in victim blaming.


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