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Child Care In Ireland

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Comments

  • #182
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Yep - I completely agree on this point. I watched the Prime Time documentary on creches and was horrified but not all that surprised. Is it really good for a child's development to put them into a crèche 5 days a week from 7am till 5.30pm?

    There's a lot to be said for full-time parenting.

    Hmmm, it's done in France. Meh, I guess it depends. They most probably would still get a familial environment, and perhaps even more of a one than they would at home.

    I'm actually in favor of Creche 5-7 times a week.


  • #183
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,383 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    veXual wrote: »
    There's a trend with all the creches featured on the report as they are all owned by parent companies and have multiple creches dotted around Dublin. Some of these larger institutions are focused completely on profit and as a result the care for the child suffers.

    I haven't seen the report so I don't know if its be mentioned but were the ratio's of children to staff over the legal limit?

    I know there are steps in place that within x amount of years all people working with children need to have a relevant childcare qualification but many still don't hence a lower level of care.

    The reports Prime Time acquired with FOI referred to creches through out the country. They even did some filming outside of Dublin. But with Dublin having higher density, it is likely to be more prevelant and easier to demonstrate.

    To be honest, I seems to me a lot of the issue is down to management not giving their company proper focus and attention. The tragic thing about this, is the product is child care. The "Walk through tour," they did was presented by someone who didn't even work in that creche. Then another where the management were backing up that woman in Malahide. It tells me they don't know what's happening and just leaving their employees at, what ever they are at, with no controls in place to maintain and evaluate a standard of care for the children.

    In a service industry, a company needs some form of quality control which can be quantified and demonstrated to potential clients. All of these places shown in Prime Time didn't have any.


  • #184
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    The most memorable footage from last night....

    The 18 month old strapped in the high chair for 2 hours.
    The group of wobblers who were strapped in their chairs for 2 hours.
    The woman flipping the kids around like rag dolls as she tried to get them to sleep.
    The woman who kept on shouting aggressively at the kids in her care.
    The building materials in the playground (all though we did not see how hazardous the material was).
    The 18 months old who was put on his own behind two doors to sleep.
    The kid strapped in a chair put facing the fridge as punishment. Cant remember how long he was left there, but not pleasant viewing.
    The kid who was told to 'get your fckin hand out' when she tried to feed her self with her hands.
    The kid who had his mattress removed and had to sleep on the floor as punishment for crying.

    I honestly could not sleep last night thinking about it and how a human could do this to kids. Very distressing.
    There has to be a case for criminal charges here. And clearly more regulation is needed, but it needs to be meaningful regulation with consequences.
    The crèches should be obliged to give parents and prospective clients copies of the reports.

    This thread should be moved to the parenting subforum. After hours jokers don't really add to this thread.


  • #185
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,383 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    This thread should be moved to the parenting subforum. After hours jokers don't really add to this thread.

    There's already a thread there...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056954917


  • #186
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Im pretty sure anyone can start a thread in the parenting forum if they want.....


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  • #187
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Bambi wrote: »
    Im pretty sure anyone can start a thread in the parenting forum if they want.....


    Of course, but my point been that on this thread you have a mix of people who are outraged, distressed, uninformed and those who want to crack jokes.

    Opening multiple threads on boards is not allowed, but given that there are multiple threads why not merge them and put them in the correct subforum?


  • #188
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Of course, but my point been that on this thread you have a mix of people who are outraged, distressed, uninformed and those who want to crack jokes.

    Opening multiple threads on boards is not allowed, but given that there are multiple threads why not merge them and put them in the correct subforum?

    slightly different topics, this is more general


  • #189
    flutterflye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,538 ✭✭✭flutterflye


    seb65 wrote: »
    Well, first of all, stating it's automatically the women who must decide whether to give up their career to stay at home.

    Second, stating a woman's choice to have a career is only because a) her husband's salary doesn't cover the bills; or b) because she wants extra income.

    Anyone think women might work because they get a sense of fulfillment out of their career? Or how about financial independence?

    Maybe after the darlings have grown and left the house, some women want something else in their lives.

    Why do people always do this?! Read things into people's words that aren't there!

    I know I didn't write that post, but I didn't/don't see anything wrong with it.
    I am a stay at home mother at the moment. I will go back and finish college once my youngest can go to playschool. I want a career. I would even go as far as saying that I need a career! I have wanted to work in a particular field since I was 15, and I don't think I will be fulfilled until I am doing what I've always wanted to do.
    So you see, I am one of those women that you are talking about in your reply, but yet, I am not even remotely offended by that other poster, because I am not reading things that are not there!


  • #190
    fryup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    "will i put in the bin?? will i put in the bin?"

    that was the worst scene i think esp when the kid started bawling and then coughing and choking and she didn't give a hoot


  • #191
    Quazzie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,862 ✭✭✭✭Quazzie


    Has last nights Primetime been put up online anywhere yet?


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  • #192
    Lord Trollington
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lord Trollington


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Yep - I completely agree on this point. I watched the Prime Time documentary on creches and was horrified but not all that surprised. Is it really good for a child's development to put them into a crèche 5 days a week from 7am till 5.30pm?

    There's a lot to be said for full-time parenting.

    Do you live in the real World?

    Full time parenting is simply not an option for a lot of families in Ireland at the moment. By families I mean parents who are married and living together.
    Single mothers seem to have the life of it, but that for another arguement.

    It's not like 20/30 years ago where the Father's wage sustained the family. That is simply not doable at the moment. A modest wage of €45k a year would not keep a house, bills , child and mother in modern Ireland.


  • #193
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    In fairness even throughout the glorious tiger era, sticking little jimmy in the creche was the done thing, we've come to accept that our economy demands that both parents work


  • #194
    seb65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 402 ✭✭seb65


    flutterflye wrote: »
    Why do people always do this?! Read things into people's words that aren't there!

    I know I didn't write that post, but I didn't/don't see anything wrong with it.
    I am a stay at home mother at the moment. I will go back and finish college once my youngest can go to playschool. I want a career. I would even go as far as saying that I need a career! I have wanted to work in a particular field since I was 15, and I don't think I will be fulfilled until I am doing what I've always wanted to do.
    So you see, I am one of those women that you are talking about in your reply, but yet, I am not even remotely offended by that other poster, because I am not reading things that are not there!

    Well I am one of those women also and I am offended. We all have a right to our own perspectives. The other's poster's choice of words were quite reflective of old world attitudes. To say there are only two ends of the spectrum - women who have to work to support their families or women who (as was implied) selfishly don't have to work, but do, to have designer clothes and nice holidays? Seriously!


  • #195
    sadie06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭sadie06


    Quazzie wrote: »
    Has been put up online anywhere yet?

    Apparently it is not going to be put up online, nor is it to receive a second airing. I presume this was part of the agreement made with the parents of the children involved.


  • #196
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    sadie06 wrote: »
    Apparently it is not going to be put up online, nor is it to receive a second airing. I presume this was part of the agreement made with the parents of the children involved.

    Yes, this was part of the agreement apparently.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/rte-no-repeats-or-online-airing-of-prime-time-creche-investigation-928711-May2013/


  • #197
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    After watching last nights I realise how lucky we are with the crèche my son is in. They are excellent. The problem that is apparent from last nights programme is that if a crèche is in violation of the regulations there is no real follow up and no sanctions. I think they should take a leaf out of the fsai book and shut down crèches in violation and publish their names. The industry is based on reputation and that would definitely ensure that the managements of these facilities would ensure they pull their socks up.


  • #198
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    Do you live in the real World?

    Full time parenting is simply not an option for a lot of families in Ireland at the moment. By families I mean parents who are married and living together.
    Single mothers seem to have the life of it, but that for another arguement.

    It's not like 20/30 years ago where the Father's wage sustained the family. That is simply not doable at the moment. A modest wage of €45k a year would not keep a house, bills , child and mother in modern Ireland.

    Its the life you choose to have


  • #199
    Lord Trollington
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭Lord Trollington


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Its the life you choose to have

    I could chose to not work and sponge from the state for every little aspect of my life but I'd prefer not to. So yes it is the choice we both make to go out and work have a nice home and have the best for our kids.

    And yes I deserve to be ridiculed for it.


  • #200
    Tmeos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 207 ✭✭Tmeos


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    Do you live in the real World?

    Full time parenting is simply not an option for a lot of families in Ireland at the moment. By families I mean parents who are married and living together.
    Single mothers seem to have the life of it, but that for another arguement.

    That is both ignorant and offensive. As a single parent without family nearby, I have no choice but to put my child in creche to continue my career. It is also extremely difficult to manage this on one income as I'm sure you can imagine. Single mothers do not indeed have the 'life of it' as you don't default move onto social welfare when you have a child alone. Please think before you post such ignorant nonsense.


  • #201
    sasta le
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭sasta le


    Some of the standard of people that ive seen doing "Child Care" courses has been awful,they think its a piece of paper for a handy job


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  • #202
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 13,839 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Is having an economy that demands both parents work flat out to service a jumbo negative equity mortgage for a commuter land house really worth it? Is having 70 per cent of crèches failing minimum standards as revealed in last nights Prime Time acceptable? Is putting infants into such environments for 8 to 9 hours a day the ideal thing to do? Is running a crèche as a profiteering business which places profits first and care of small children and infants much lower in priority acceptable?

    Is the lack of flexible working arrangements for either parent so that they can spend more time with their children in their crucial and formative first years something to be lauded?

    We need to ask ourselves these questions.


  • #203
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Is having an economy that demands both parents work flat out to service a jumbo negative equity mortgage for a commuter land house really worth it? Is having 70 per cent of crèches failing minimum standards as revealed in last nights Prime Time acceptable? Is putting infants into such environments for 8 to 9 hours a day the ideal thing to do? Is running a crèche as a profiteering business which places profits first and care of small children and infants much lower in priority acceptable?

    Is the lack of flexible working arrangements for either parent so that they can spend more time with their children in their crucial and formative first years something to be lauded?

    We need to ask ourselves these questions.

    We have been sold a pup


  • #204
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    The most memorable footage from last night....

    I honestly could not sleep last night thinking about it and how a human could do this to kids. Very distressing.
    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Of course, but my point been that on this thread you have a mix of people who are outraged, distressed, uninformed and those who want to crack jokes.

    Opening multiple threads on boards is not allowed, but given that there are multiple threads why not merge them and put them in the correct subforum?

    Not sure why you want the thread moved if there are distressed people on here? Given that you are clearly one of them, would you be any less distressed were the thread not in AH?

    To say that there are only people who are distressed, uninformed or jokers is not fair at all.

    There has been a lot of very calm, well informed opinion put forward here. Maybe read the thread again?


  • #205
    sasta le
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭sasta le


    A lot of crèche workers would be only young adults no kids or life experience


  • #206
    niallo76
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭niallo76


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    I could chose to not work and sponge from the state for every little aspect of my life but I'd prefer not to. So yes it is the choice we both make to go out and work have a nice home and have the best for our kids.

    And yes I deserve to be ridiculed for it.

    what do you mean to 'sponge from the state'- I work full time,my wife stays at home to look after our kids,that's a choice we made to give the best to our children-apart from Children's Allowance,we do not receive one penny from the Govenment.
    You need to get off the high horse...then ridiculed for being so crass


  • #207
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    I honestly could not sleep last night thinking about it and how a human could do this to kids. Very distressing.
    There has to be a case for criminal charges here. And clearly more regulation is needed, but it needs to be meaningful regulation with consequences.
    The crèches should be obliged to give parents and prospective clients copies of the reports.

    I woke up a few times freaking about it. My 4 year old woke at 3am to go to the bathroom and wanting some juice, I was exhausted and am under a lot of stress at the moment and the last thing in my mind would have been to slam him back onto his mattress. I just got him the drink and waited for him to curl up to sleep again. There is never an excuse for that woman's behaviour.

    I was talking about it with a mother outside the pre-school today. As she said, they have an older car, are currently only renting and have not been on a holiday since their second child was born because they feel the children should have at least one parent at home until they start school. I agree, if it is in any way possible, I think it should be considered. You don't need two new cars outside the door and a foreign holiday every year. It is one thing when parents, single or otherwise, are only able to provide for their child fully if they are working, if the second income is not essential, they can consider it.


  • #208
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I was talking about it with a mother outside the pre-school today. As she said, they have an older car, are currently only renting and have not been on a holiday since their second child was born because they feel the children should have at least one parent at home until they start school. I agree, if it is in any way possible, I think it should be considered. You don't need two new cars outside the door and a foreign holiday every year. It is one thing when parents, single or otherwise, are only able to provide for their child fully if they are working, if the second income is not essential, they can consider it.

    Why is there an assumption that if both parents work full time its to fund a negative equity huge mortgage or to fund some frippery extravagance? (not aimed at you in particular, just the overall vibe I sometimes get from time to time!) I am a full time worker, my car is an utter banger, the "good" car is slightly better, but not by much. We rent, and have not had a holiday - foreign or domestic for several years. I rarely shop but when I do its pennys and not BT's. We rarely go out. I dont smoke. I dont buy any magazines or coffees to go anymore, and get my hair cut about once a year.

    But the fact remains that I have had 2 large pay cuts in the last 5 years, no promotional prospects, and my partner similar. Furthermore, us workers have gotten hammered in the budgets every subsequent year of the recession, so we have less gross income due to pay cuts, and far less net income due to tax hikes. The price of fuel - petrol, gas, electricity have shot up, and everyone in this country are stretched.

    My salary: I pay the creche fees, the rent, the esb and the gas monthly and its gone. Then we live off my partners salary for the rest of the month. The rare month that we dont have car repairs, doctor visits, or other things that crop up from time to time, we save a tiny bit for the future home we hope to have some day. And we are the lucky ones. We both have employment.

    But please dont think that just because I have a full working week its all designer handbags, and shopping trips to NY. We are existing day to day, same as the rest of the country hoping austerity will come to an end.


  • #209
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Is this going to be put up on RTE.ie? I missed it last night. Although having read this thread I'm not sure I'd have been able to hack it anyway :/

    TBH, nothing pisses me off about these documentaries and incidents than "We've fired staff members" or "we've taken disciplinary action". This smacks of the whole internal procedure form of "dealing" with child abuse in the church, and it's not acceptable.
    These people should not be dealt with internally or fired. They should be up in front of a judge to face criminal charges and thrown in jail for a f*cking long time, as should the people whose negligence is responsible for allowing this to happen in their establishment. There's absolutely no excuse. Nothing annoys me more than "a few isolated incidents", one isolated incident is one too many and someone's head should roll for allowing it to happen.


  • #210
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Neyite wrote: »
    Why is there an assumption that if both parents work full time its to fund a negative equity huge mortgage or to fund some frippery extravagance? I am a full time worker, my car is an utter banger, the "good" car is slightly better, but not by much. We rent, and have not had a holiday - foreign or domestic for several years. I rarely shop but when I do its pennys and not BT's. We rarely go out. I dont smoke. I dont buy any magazines or coffees to go anymore, and get my hair cut about once a year.

    But the fact remains that I have had 2 large pay cuts in the last 5 years, no promotional prospects, and my partner similar. Furthermore, us workers have gotten hammered in the budgets every subsequent year of the recession, so we have less gross income due to pay cuts, and far less net income due to tax hikes. The price of fuel - petrol, gas, electricity have shot up, and everyone in this country are stretched.

    My salary: I pay the creche fees, the rent, the esb and the gas monthly and its gone. Then we live off my partners salary for the rest of the month. The rare month that we dont have car repairs, doctor visits, or other things that crop up from time to time, we save a tiny bit for the future home we hope to have some day. And we are the lucky ones. We both have employment.

    But please dont think that just because I have a full working week its all designer handbags, and shopping trips to NY. We are existing day to day, same as the rest of the country hoping austerity will come to an end.

    Hence why I said, if they are able to afford for one not to work, they can consider it, never would I assume a two working parent family are out living the life of Riley. :)

    Though I know one family like that, but that is literally one single family out of every one I know personally. Some parents are lucky enough they can get by on one income, not every one is. And the cost of creche is sickeningly high, especially considering the low standard some are clearly going by. I know people who have taken a cut in living expense because they have 2 kids and the creche would have eaten all but 40 of one of their wages a week, that is fine for them, not for everyone else though, that 40 could be essential.

    I always say that people with higher incomes and low enough outgoings can consider rather than just with their job, because a job is a lot more than money to some, it is an identity, they may feel they cannot get back in after an extended break, etc. Every family is different.

    Just to quote my last comment, as I don't want to make it sound like I was generalizing.
    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I agree, if it is in any way possible, I think it should be considered..................It is one thing when parents, single or otherwise, are only able to provide for their child fully if they are working, if the second income is not essential, they can consider it.


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  • #211
    Jazbee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭Jazbee


    I missed last nights primetime, but was not surprised to hear about the evidence of mistreatment of children. I started my eldest in crèche (his cousin started the same day). I went to collect him early as I had a feeling something was wrong. I looked in the window and he (along with all the other children) were strapped into high chairs while the carers were bunched in a partitioned corner, chatting and having tea. My son was roaring crying. I went in and removed him and his cousin (who was wet through and crying) and obviously never went back. I reported them. I've spoken to many people in the town about it when they've mentioned that they will be sending a child there.

    We are a one income family on a low wage, but I wouldn't consider sending any of my kids to crèche while I worked to supplement our income. Playschool is slightly different as they are generally old enough to tell you that something is wrong.

    Obviously not all crèches are like the ones on primetime and also I'm sure there are parents who don't have any other choice but to send their kids to crèche. That's just my own experience.


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