Child Care In Ireland

keith16

Allegations from RTE on the standard of child care in this country to be aired next week:

RTÉ said the programme finds various degrees of mistreatment of young children in specific rooms of the creches, involving inadequate care and serious breaches of child care regulations.
No evidence of violent or sexual abuse was found.
The broadcaster said the creches involved have been given access to the footage that will be shown in the programme.

Full story here.

My own thoughts:

Have always been reluctant when it comes to considering putting my children into a creche and have so far resisted.

To my mind, this is another example of how poorly we deal with certain vulnerable sections of our society. Our kids, our elderly etc.

At this stage, I would rather one of us stays at home full time to look after the little ones.

Firstly, the cost of creche services is huge, and secondly, this is the type of "care" the children receive. Sure, we'll have less money coming in, but I think it's probably worth it.

Am I over-reacting?

MagicMarker

Old news.

I walk past a creche going to college some days and noticed they had a little fishtank next to the window with a plugged-in CD player/radio/cassette player on top of it. I wouldn't be sending my kids to somewhere like that.

keith16

MagicMarker wrote: »

Old news.

How old? Is this news now in an elderly home strapped into a chair being force fed nice warm glasses of "shut the hell up"?

emo72

the missus once worked in one. we knew when we had kids that they would never go to a creche. owners want maximum profits, and pay the least wages. its kinda obvious what that leads to then.

jam_mac_jam

The staff are paid really ****e wages, so its not really a big surprise. I think you might be better off with a child minder that had their own kids and is earning a few extra quid. Its a more normal environment then an institutionalized creche.

Gloomtastic!

It would have been cheaper to send our kids to boarding school than what we paid for them to go to crèche. How mad is that!

HondaSami

I'm sure there are some good creche's out there with good kind workers who care for the children they are minding but like everything there will be horror stories that will make all the good ones look bad.

Odelay

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

It would have been cheaper to send our kids to boarding school than what we paid for them to go to crèche. How mad is that!

Do they change nappies in boarding school?

The Backwards Man

I can only speak highly of the local community creche near me. The staff are excellent and the committee put in hours and hours of work behind the scenes. I would have no hesitation sending my kids there if I had any. They are not all bad.

Jake Rugby Walrus666

It's funny that with the normalisation of two income families and creches the extra income just got factored into the maximum house price that could be set in a demand>supply property market. So any theoretical benefit of two incomes dissapeared into a mortgage and children paid by having both parents in full time jobs and them in full time creches.

keith16

Odelay wrote: »

Do they change nappies in boarding school?

No, but it's likely they have to deal with a more metaphorical, infinitely more annoying kind of shit.

Athymum

I think you wouldnt be a good parent if you didnt struggle with this decision. We all want to protect our children, so the best thing we can do is research child care facilities and be very picky where we place our children. My son was in an award winning Montessori and he came out of it with better social skills, better speech, he learnt a lot and loved the routine. He needed to be among his peers and now he is in school you can see the benefits.

The Queen of England

keith16 wrote: »

To my mind, this is another example of how poorly we deal with certain vulnerable sections of our society. Our kids, our elderly etc.

At this stage, I would rather one of us stays at home full time to look after the little ones.

Am I over-reacting?

Yes, you are over-reacting. The majority of creches are well run & the kids are well fed and well cared for. The same could be said for nursing homes. All it takes is a few bad eggs to spoil the basket.

Fair enough if you decide that your kids are best looked after at home by a parent - that's a personal choice, but I know from experience that sending kids to creche is great for their development and social skills as they get to interact with other children & start developing their education before they go to school, probably more so than they would at home.

They also get used to spending time apart from their parents which helps them adjust easier to starting school - as well as giving the parents some free time for leisure or work duties.

I wouldn't worry at all about the kids once the creche had a good reputation and they come home looking happy after their time there.

keith16

Athymum wrote: »

I think you wouldnt be a good parent if you didnt struggle with this decision. We all want to protect our children, so the best thing we can do is research child care facilities and be very picky where we place our children. My son was in an award winning Montessori and he came out of it with better social skills, better speech, he learnt a lot and loved the routine. He needed to be among his peers and now he is in school you can see the benefits.

Ok, there are benefits but here's the thing: I never went to creche. Many of my "peers" didn't either, and I turned out ok*.

But I am interested in what you say about him needing to be among his peers. Do kids really need to be placed among "peers" at such a young age? We compete with others for a long enough stretch of our lives.

I'm not having a go at you or anything. My basic point is that there is no net benefit between keeping him at home or placing him in a such a good creche.

Every kid is different too so perhaps home/creche will better serve some more than others.

*Goes back to online gambling and watching p0rnhub.

flutterflye

My son has special needs so never lasted more than 2 days anywhere. My daughter has been in 2 - both of which I found to be really professional, good with the kids, had them doing all sorts of activities. Honestly couldn't fault one single thing about either of them.
That's only 2 places out of the entire country though, so maybe I just got lucky.

emo72

The Queen of England wrote: »

but I know from experience that sending kids to creche is great for their development and social skills as they get to interact with other children & start developing their education before they go to school, probably more so than they would at home.

interesting point. some people send their babies to creches when they are only a few months old because they have to go back to work. in that situation its definitely a negative.

The Queen of England

keith16 wrote: »

Ok, there are benefits but here's the thing: I never went to creche. Many of my "peers" didn't either, and I turned out ok*.

I didn't go to a creche either, but that doesn't really prove anything as it simply wasn't the norm back then. You're comparing oranges with bananas.

emo72

im assuming that we all know the difference between a montessori and a creche? just to keep the thread on track?

keith16

The Queen of England wrote: »

I didn't go to a creche either, but that doesn't really prove anything as it simply wasn't the norm back then. You're comparing oranges with bananas.

Fair enough, but I missed out on the benefits of not doing so. Does that make me a worse person for it? Would my development have been any better?

tbh, while the benefits are there, I think they are over-stated and their overall influence is likely insignificant.

The Queen of England

emo72 wrote: »

interesting point. some people send their babies to creches when they are only a few months old because they have to go back to work. in that situation its definitely a negative.

Most creches won't take babies until they are at least 6 months old. My youngest started 7 months & she loved it - she'd yelp with delight (even at that age) going in the door in the morning.

I really don't really see how that could be a negative experience on a child.

Athymum

I wasnt in a creche either and i struggled in school, i wasnt exposed to kids my age at all, so i personally think it really benefits Kids to be among their peers. Thats my opinion. You know your own children and their needs so you will make the best decision for them. I just want to get my sons experience of creche across because it was a positive one.

flutterflye

keith16 wrote: »

Ok, there are benefits but here's the thing: I never went to creche. Many of my "peers" didn't either, and I turned out ok*.

But I am interested in what you say about him needing to be among his peers. Do kids really need to be placed among "peers" at such a young age? We compete with others for a long enough stretch of our lives.

It's not about competing with others! Not even competing for attention. Why don't you go see a few places just to check them out, you'll get a feel for them very quickly. You'll be able to see how the dynamics of the place works. I don't remember the ratios, but for each age group, there has to be 1 worker for every however many kids. You can bring your kids along and let them join in if they want, or if they're too shy, they can stay with you.
I think it is important tbh - I think it's important for their personal growth and their self confidence/self assurance.
Even 2/3 mornings a week. I know plenty of people who just send their kids for 2/3 mornings, and that way the kid and parent get a bit of both worlds.

keith16

emo72 wrote: »

im assuming that we all know the difference between a montessori and a creche? just to keep the thread on track?

er....the montessori is for the fodeiner kids and the creche is for de poshies?

Athymum

My little guy was there for 2/3 days per week and i am a stay at home mum/carer. He really loved it too.

emo72

parents drop their kids off at a creche at 8AM and commute to work then collect them at 6PM on the way home. it would obviously depend on the commute. its a lot different than a few hours in the morning in a "playgroup" or montessori.

2 or 3 hours is enough for a 3 or 4 year old kid when adapting to school hours and learning the routine of it, before they start proper school. major difference from a full time creche scenario.

flutterflye

keith16 wrote: »

er....the montessori is for the fodeiner kids and the creche is for de poshies?

Udder way rnd.

Montessori is a specific teaching method based on Maria Montessori.
All I remember from going to see one was that they take an approach where they teach the same things to all kids - the same level like, and the older kids teach the younger kids - which is actually good for the older kids believe it or not, and everything has to be neat and tidy and child sized! - Could be completely off, but that's what my memory is telling me anyway!

hfallada

When was growing up I went to some old womens house. It was a 3 bed semi detached but she had like 25 children in the living and dining room supervised by like 2 women. She didnt even child proof the place.

But that was the early 90s. People have greater expectations now

emo72

flutterflye wrote: »

Udder way rnd.

Montessori is a specific teaching method based on Maria Montessori.
All I remember from going to see one was that they take an approach where they teach the same things to all kids - the same level like, and the older kids teach the younger kids - which is actually good for the older kids believe it or not, and everything has to be neat and tidy and child sized! - Could be completely off, but that's what my memory is telling me anyway!

pretty much bang on that.

Athymum

The place i am talking about is called Tir na Nog childcare centre and it has 2 montessori classes in it along with wobbler room, toddler room and Irish learning room. There are several places for childcare in my town and none of them have the title 'creche' above their door. Didnt know this forum is so specific, sorry.

emo72

keith16 wrote: »

er....the montessori is for the fodeiner kids and the creche is for de poshies?

montessori is a private school usually, you have to pay for it, but you can get the free government year for it

PauloMN

It's a big decision for any parent, no doubt about it. Personally I think a well-chosen creche really help with a child's development before starting school. We were lucky to be able to extend my wife's maternity leave on our two kids, so we didn't have to send them to creche as little babies. We were also lucky in that my wife works part time, and we had one of the grandmothers helping out as well - so neither were in creche all day, every day. A god mixture of creche and parents/grandparents looking after the child is a great balance imo.

As regards specific creches - I found that the owner run creche we used for most of our youngest's pre-schooling was definitely the best. Because it's not one branch of a chain of creches, and is a smaller creche at that, I found it easier to trust the staff and get to know them better. The staff stayed around longer in the job than other large "chain" creches we had used before. The attention my daughter got in the smaller creche was absolutely fantastic, and she really developed well there in all aspects. She's flying now in school, takes it in her stride and a lot of that confidence and ability is down to the creche. That's not to put down the larger creches - we had good experiences in both of the large creches we used before, but there was a higher staff turnover, more children and a bit too much of a regimented environment. The smaller owner run creche definitely had more of a family feel to it while still being structured enough to ensure the kids had the right balance of playing and effective learning.

keith16

Athymum wrote: »

Didnt know this forum is so specific, sorry.

Oh don't apologise. We love all the oceans. Not the Southern tho.

emo72

Athymum wrote: »

Didnt know this forum is so specific, sorry.

ah, its not. im just pointing out the differences between creche and montessori.

no need to apologize, stay and have the craic

Celly Smunt

Does "play school" still exist?

keith16

pmcmahon wrote: »

Does "play school" still exist?

Yep, Dáil Éireann is still going strong.

Celly Smunt

keith16 wrote: »

Yep, Dáil Éireann is still going strong.

They have fancy names for everything these days.

The Queen of England

emo72 wrote: »

im assuming that we all know the difference between a montessori and a creche?

Would that be similar to the difference between "condescending" and "informative"?

3DataModem

Jake Rugby Walrus666 wrote: »

It's funny that with the normalisation of two income families and creches the extra income just got factored into the maximum house price that could be set in a demand>supply property market. So any theoretical benefit of two incomes dissapeared into a mortgage and children paid by having both parents in full time jobs and them in full time creches.

I agree. Live somewhere cheaper, and only one parent gets to work. It's great.

emo72

The Queen of England wrote: »

Would that be similar to the difference between "condescending" and "informative"?

no. lots of people don't know or are misinformed. but you are obviously well informed. :P

keith16

The Queen of England wrote: »

Would that be similar to the difference between "condescending" and "informative"?

Yes, kids who go to "montesori" grow up to be "condescending", while kids who visit creche's in their formative years grow up to be "adults".

Athymum

Curious what you mean by that

keith16

Athymum wrote: »

Curious what you mean by that

Is that directed at me?

I don't mean anything by it. Just making a bad joke.

wolfpawnat

Cost of creches are the reason my son never went to one. I was supposed to go back to college and use the college creche, but they were demanding 700pm and on top of rent I just couldn't looked like an amazing creche though. Good adult to child ratios and the like.

He goes to pre-school now and I have to say it is below par. I regret not sending him to the franchise one near my home. I think that if possible for a parent to raise a child at home it is best and bring them to groups, but that is not an option for so many people either.

As others have said, there are a few bad places to the hundreds of good. But lowly paid and often overworked staff will only get you so far. For the extortionate fees, the staff are on just barely scraping above min wage!

Athymum

I didnt pay for my son to go to Montessori, the ECCE scheme did. If you could choose Montessori or creche wouldnt you want your child to learn as well as play? It is only a small part of their life and have years of public school education ahead of them if thats what you choose. So i dont think pre school is going to define the person they will grow up to be. Thats usually the influence of their role models in life. Just a thought, thanks. Nice to meet you all, im a first timer on this. Goodnight.

Tom_Cruise

If i ever meet a woman and have children (im pretty sure ill never meet a woman as im so ugly), i would send my kids to the cheapest child care facility available - saving money for their education (college) when they get older.

The Queen of England

wolfpawnat wrote: »

they were demanding 700pm

For the extortionate fees, the staff are on just barely scraping above min wage!

€700 a month isn't really an extortionate fee when you consider that you can have your child cared for up to 8 hours a day or more, 5 days a week. It works out at about €35 a day. Definitely not a rip-off when you consider the level of care a good creche will devote to your children.

So while the cost may be prohibitive for some, that doesn't mean the creches are highly profitable businesses especially when you take into account the staffing costs, insurance, overheads etc.

However, I still think we could do more to subsidise those who wish to go back to work but are prevented from doing so because they simply can't afford the creche fees. I don't think it's a good idea to force people out of the workforce - as happens quite often here - just because they aren't in a position to earn enough to have their kids looked after while they go to work.

emo72

well guys, im really sorry if i came across as condescending or insulting. no harm meant. but so the thread is not derailed i will give a little input.

obviously there are some serious problems in childcare. hence the rte investigation. when my wife was starting out in childcare (she always wanted to work with kids), she was in her late 20s. she found that the owner had problems keeping staff or getting people interested enough to work for her. she saw a lot of staff come and go, and they were usually girls straight out of school usually their late teens.

it is very hard work looking after children for long hours and you really need to be devoted and not just looking for a wage at the end of the week, and there was people who got jobs who werent really suited to working with children, but managed to keep their jobs because they were hard to replace. hopefully thats changed now.

RTEs investigation unit obviously thought there was enough of a problem to investigate it.

i really hope nothing bad happened to the kids.

wolfpawnat

The Queen of England wrote: »

€700 a month isn't really an extortionate fee when you consider that you can have your child cared for up to 8 hours a day or more, 5 days a week. It works out at about €35 a day. Definitely not a rip-off when you consider the level of care a good creche will devote to your children.

So while the cost may be prohibitive for some, that doesn't mean the creches are highly profitable businesses especially when you take into account the staffing costs, insurance, overheads etc.

However, I still think we could do more to subsidise those who wish to go back to work but are prevented from doing so because they simply can't afford the creche fees. I don't think it's a good idea to force people out of the workforce - as happens quite often here - just because they aren't in a position to earn enough to have their kids looked after while they go to work.

That was the reduced college rate with both parents in college there. The regular fee was the grand mark. A lot of money for two students. But yes, as I said, facilities were amazing. It just angered me the "student creche" was out of reach for most students.

There are too many people forced out of work by creche costs. Seriously 1100 in the place next to me and a 5% discount for a second child. 5% is nothing!!!! One alone is a mortgage repayment!

Neyite

Tom_Cruise wrote: »

If i ever meet a woman and have children (im pretty sure ill never meet a woman as im so ugly), i would send my kids to the cheapest child care facility available - saving money for their education (college) when they get older.

You wont though. I looked at a few and while you might save 150 a month, if you are both full time working your child could be spending up to 50 hrs in that creche. One I looked at ticked all the right boxes, but I just got a vibe and knew I couldn't send my child there. The next one I saw was a bit dearer, but it felt like such a happy place. The newest staff member is there about 18 months so the turnover of staff is very low, they are all fully qualified and first aid trained, and chatting to them picking up the baby every day, you see they genuinely love their job. Our baby is thriving there.

Even the cheapest creche I looked at was dearer than our monthly rent. But if it means my child is looked after properly.

sam34

emo72 wrote: »

im assuming that we all know the difference between a montessori and a creche? just to keep the thread on track?

yeah, a few hundred quid a month :pac: