Raiders steal tanker from army barracks

Morpheus · 28-05-2013 05:21PM

jugger0 wrote: »

We should have an army geared towards Guerrilla warfare not one which tries to fight conventionally...

jugger0 wrote: »

we should be able to defend ourselves instead of relying on others.

Clearly you are at war in your own head!

To defend oneself a country needs to invest in defences. Naval, Aircraft, Anti Air, Mobile infantry, mechanised units, integrated artillery, satellites, UAVs, heli lift, technology, weapons, soldiers ... boots on the ground... and planning, lots of planning.

But were not facing invasion,
we are at peace generally and face internal problems for which there are solutions and events like this one will probably not occur very often, but anyone who thinks the DF is a soft target because one group got lucky, will quickly find out how sharp the sword can be.

The improvements we need are intelligence, surveillance, security of premises and perimeters, SOPs for dealing with storage of criminal evidence of this scale, review of current procedures and if they are found wanting and not the individuals in question, then improvement and investment.
cold. hard. cash.

laoch na mona · 28-05-2013 05:23PM

Cienciano wrote: »

How much of our budget do you reckon we should put into the defence forces? Bearing in mind that a modern fighter get costs about 1 eight of out entire budget. A nuclear sub is about 3 times our entire budget.
Go on, tell us what services you would cut in order to get our army up to scratch. All in case someone "invades our island".

we could build some gear (guns,ammo) in Ireland which would be cost neutral because cost of gear would be offset by putting money into the Irish economy. this would mean more money for the more advance sort of kit

TheDB · 28-05-2013 05:28PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

we could build some gear (guns,ammo) in Ireland which would be cost neutral because cost of gear would be offset by putting money into the Irish economy. this would mean more money for the more advance sort of kit

That is the same economic mistake communists make. It is better to concentrate our resources on what we are good at.

Morpheus · 28-05-2013 05:29PM

Rangers are special forces, they have the capabilities and training levels of the SAS and US Navy Seals.

Thats EXTREMELY Elite.

not even britain has 5000 SAS troops. Its a bit mad, the costs would be staggering. To train the unit we have alone costs a chunk (well deserved spending all the same). Training is not an issue here. proper Standard Operating Procedures for dealing with the stealing of a vehicle from inside a military barracks combined with a review of the perimeter security of all military installations to define what improvements are required combined with investment in new protective barriers at gates etc (and dogs, working guard dogs are one of the best deterrents) are whats needed. 90% of the work can be done with little cost and the rest is worth it. Now we have consolidated to less barracks, we must invest in them to protect them.

AS for the fat soldiers. they may look rotund, but if they dont pass the annual fitness tests they go on their ticket.

They may have been reservists who are only from this year onwards subject to standard fitness tests , then again they equally may have been full timers who will have to go on a diet to pass the fitness tests. (no offence meant at all by the way, some of the fittest soldiers I know are reservists) the army, reserve included, is a lot healthier and fitter than ever before and continues to improve.

Its also the only state agency with "Value for money" in its mission statement and no union and its representative organisation cannot authorise it to strike. The govt suggests cuts, the army bends over and takes the cuts with no resistance.

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 05:49PM

eire-kp wrote: »

The suggestions earlier about having a better trained army were not a bad idea. I know nothing about it but would 5000 men trained to the standards of the Rangers be possible and spend the balance saved on extra patrol craft to monitor the coastline?

You can't mass produce SOF.

Manic Moran · 28-05-2013 05:52PM

eire-kp wrote: »

As someone who worked in various in a military barracks here on contract works yes security is a bit lax compared to bases I have worked on in the United States, particularly on bases located in more rural parts of the US which are not located a few miles from a border with another country

Oddly, I was about to post the opposite. I don't know which bases you were on, but most of the garrison bases are "open bases." If you can provide evidence that you are legal to drive (license, registration, insurance) you can drive onto the base. Frankly, US bases are just too big to secure. (And worse, they're gun free zones, so soldiers who would be armed downtown cannot be on base). Armouries and ammunition depots are properly secured and monitored, but little stops anyone from hopping the motor pool fence, breaking the padlock on the tank, and driving off with it.Of course, getting somewhere afterwards is not so simple, most US bases with armoured vehicles are not located in the center of town.

Now, not all bases are "open". Those which deal with nukes, R&D, or other such things are facilities that you don't want to try your luck. Almost anyone can drive around Fort Knox, but look sideways at the gold depository and you will be having a chat with security.

Basically, there's little wrong with a relatively insecure base of there is no particular threat, as long as you know that is what you are doing. In this case, though, either the motor pool area needs more security, someone failed on the job, or the truck was parked there with the knowledge that the truck wasn't particularly secure, but was "safe enough on balance"

fullstop · 28-05-2013 06:17PM

Royal Irish wrote: »

This is pretty embarrassing for the defense forces but really though, this theft is so daring, and so unexpected, I wouldn't blame the soldiers at the gate on guard duty. They must have been taken by complete surprise and left gobsmacked.

I'd say they will be taking steps to insure this never happens again like erecting a steel fenced compound within the barracks, or even simply removing random parts from the engines of seized vehicles while being stored there.

You wouldn't blame the soldiers because it was unexpected?! What the hell do they train for then? To sit on their arses and hope nothing 'unexpected' ever happens?

weldoninhio · 28-05-2013 06:45PM

Absolute joke, from talking to friends who are in the DF, it just an extension of the civil service, with the prospect of going abroad and getting extra pay.

It should be disbanded, come to an agreement with another EU country to provide defense in cases of emergency, have regional task forces of no more than 150/200 men to help out in times of emergency/for cash deliverys etc.

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 06:49PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Absolute joke, from talking to friends who are in the DF, it just an extension of the civil service, with the prospect of going abroad and getting extra pay.

It should be disbanded, come to an agreement with another EU country to provide defense in cases of emergency, have regional task forces of no more than 150/200 men to help out in times of emergency/for cash deliverys etc.

When Civil Servants start getting asked to live in a hole in the ground for days on end, gimme a shout will ya?

It's absolutely nothing like the Civil Service. What an utterly ridiculous statement.

laoch na mona · 28-05-2013 06:51PM

TheDB wrote: »

That is the same economic mistake communists make. It is better to concentrate our resources on what we are good at.

what are +
we good at? having a diverse economy is good for a country it lessens the chance of economic collapse

M three · 28-05-2013 06:51PM

Morpheus wrote: »

Rangers are special forces, they have the capabilities and training levels of the SAS and US Navy Seals.

Thats EXTREMELY Elite.

not even britain has 5000 SAS troops. Its a bit mad, the costs would be staggering. To train the unit we have alone costs a chunk (well deserved spending all the same). Training is not an issue here. proper Standard Operating Procedures for dealing with the stealing of a vehicle from inside a military barracks combined with a review of the perimeter security of all military installations to define what improvements are required combined with investment in new protective barriers at gates etc (and dogs, working guard dogs are one of the best deterrents) are whats needed. 90% of the work can be done with little cost and the rest is worth it. Now we have consolidated to less barracks, we must invest in them to protect them.

AS for the fat soldiers. they may look rotund, but if they dont pass the annual fitness tests they go on their ticket.

They may have been reservists who are only from this year onwards subject to standard fitness tests , then again they equally may have been full timers who will have to go on a diet to pass the fitness tests. (no offence meant at all by the way, some of the fittest soldiers I know are reservists) the army, reserve included, is a lot healthier and fitter than ever before and continues to improve.

Its also the only state agency with "Value for money" in its mission statement and no union and its representative organisation cannot authorise it to strike. The govt suggests cuts, the army bends over and takes the cuts with no resistance.

lets not try and turn the fact that an oil tanker was driven out of a border barracks without any soldier noticing, into an excuse for more funding.

What happened the other night was at best, serious incompetence, and at worst, took place with some level of inside assistance.
But given this is ireland no one will be disciplined, never mind get the boot

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 06:52PM

M three wrote: »

lets not try and turn the fact that an oil tanker was driven out of a border barracks without any soldier noticing, into an excuse for more funding.

What happened the other night was at best, serious incompetence, and at worst, took place with some level of inside assistance.
But given this is ireland no one will be disciplined, never mind get the boot

Of course people will be disciplined.

the purple tin · 28-05-2013 06:53PM

Maybe they should disable impounded vehicles in future. Remove something so they won't start.

Nodin · 28-05-2013 06:54PM

So the list now reads

Army, muslims, Nigerians, single mothers, taxi drivers, travellers.

Right then so.

weldoninhio · 28-05-2013 06:54PM

John Mongo wrote: »

When Civil Servants start getting asked to live in a hole in the ground for days on end, gimme a shout will ya?

It's absolutely nothing like the Civil Service. What an utterly ridiculous statement.

Live in a hole in the ground?? For a few days in the Dublin mountains?? Pull your head in, its a shambles. Glorified boy-scouts. Except you get paid.

28-05-2013 06:55PM

When I think of our Army, it always reminds me of the ad Homer sees which prompts him to join the navy.

Such a waste of money.

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 06:55PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Live in a hole in the ground?? For a few days in the Dublin mountains?? Pull your head in, its a shambles. Glorified boy-scouts. Except you get paid.

And in some cases, die.

But yeah. Just like the Civil Service.

Cody Pomeray · 28-05-2013 06:59PM

Nodin wrote: »

So the list now reads

Army, muslims, Nigerians, single mothers, taxi drivers, travellers.

Right then so.

Is the category...People who have been the subject of criticism?

Because while there has been unwarranted criticism of specific racial, ethnic or social groupings, it's hard to avoid any conclusion of deserved criticism in the case of army procedures.

Unless of course, one takes the view that serious theft from an army barracks should be met with more of a *shrug* than from your average garden store.

Dyr · 28-05-2013 07:01PM

John Mongo wrote: »

When Civil Servants start getting asked to live in a hole in the ground for days on end, gimme a shout will ya?

The Midlands isn't that bad in fairness

Wicklowrider · 28-05-2013 07:09PM

M three wrote: »

But given this is ireland no one will be disciplined, never mind get the boot

Saw a man locked up for rolling his eyes at an order, another locked up for a week because he left barracks for an hour, saw a man discharged with less than a year to go to pension for striking a Garda - I'd hate to see what happens to the responsible person for this.

But you appear to know more than me, so tell us your experience of D.F justice?

who the fug · 28-05-2013 07:13PM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Thank f**k this country doesn't have nukes, if we did we'd all be screwed.

Does Cork still have that reactor in UCC

Nodin · 28-05-2013 07:14PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Is the category...People who have been the subject of criticism?

Because while there has been unwarranted criticism of specific racial, ethnic or social groupings, it's hard to avoid any conclusion of deserved criticism in the case of army procedures.

Unless of course, one takes the view that serious theft from an army barracks should be met with more of a *shrug* than from your average garden store.

It's the general attitude.

who the fug · 28-05-2013 07:20PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

we could build some gear (guns,ammo) in Ireland which would be cost neutral because cost of gear would be offset by putting money into the Irish economy. this would mean more money for the more advance sort of kit

Who is going to pay for the R & D for a production run of 16,000 guns, probably end up with a great gun and no money for bullets

Sunnyisland · 28-05-2013 07:20PM

It was embarrassing but it does not justify the put downs and snidy remarks being made about the whole Defence force, Our defence forces, all of them, do a very good job considering the resources and financial restraint they have.imo.

M three · 28-05-2013 07:25PM

John Mongo wrote: »

Of course people will be disciplined.

No going down the town for at least 2 nights while they're supposed to be guarding a tanker of illegal fuel?!

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 07:27PM

M three wrote: »

No going down the town for at least 2 nights while they're supposed to be guarding a tanker of illegal fuel?!

No, most likely charged, fined and probably a harsher punishment depending on the outcome of the investigation into the incident.

Of course, you most likely already knew that and were just making an attempt to belittle the Defence Forces in general.

Good lad.

M three · 28-05-2013 07:29PM

John Mongo wrote: »

No, most likely charged, fined and probably a harsher punishment depending on the outcome of the investigation into the incident.

Of course, you most likely already knew that and were just making an attempt to belittle the Defence Forces in general.

Good lad.

In fairness they're doing a pretty good job of making themselves look bad.
Good on the sarcasm though, find that tanker yet?

John Mongo · 28-05-2013 07:30PM

M three wrote: »

In fairness they're doing a pretty good job of making themselves look bad.
Good on the sarcasm though, find that tanker yet?

I haven't been looking for it ya see, so no.

Cody Pomeray · 28-05-2013 07:35PM

realies wrote: »

It was embarrassing but it does not justify the put downs and snidy remarks being made about the whole Defence force, Our defence forces, all of them, do a very good job considering the resources and financial restraint they have.imo.

If the problem with the Irish army were as trivial as this story there wouldn't be a problem.

Clearly there are serious questions to ask that have little (directly) to do with this event: if it is accepted that this country has adapted a policy of non-belligerence, if it is accepted that there is an EU framework for multinational (pan European) security, and if it is accepted that the Irish Army cannot seriously mount a defence against attack and would be reliant upon that EU security forces anyway, then why the Hell are we pretending we still need the Irish army in its current form?

This question of the Irish army is bigger than the Aiken debacle.

Fr_Dougal · 28-05-2013 07:47PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If the problem with the Irish army were as trivial as this story there wouldn't be a problem.

Clearly there are serious questions to ask that have little (directly) to do with this event: if it is accepted that this country has adapted a policy of non-belligerence, if it is accepted that there is an EU framework for multinational (pan European) security, and if it is accepted that the Irish Army cannot seriously mount a defence against attack and would be reliant upon that EU security forces anyway, then why the Hell are we pretending we still need the Irish army in its current form?

This question of the Irish army is bigger than the Aiken debacle.

Ah here, there's a huge difference between some laundered oil being stolen from what is practically an open barracks and the type of work the army does. They're a highly respected force and the peacekeeping work they carry out abroad brings honour to the country.

I'm proud of our army...but can still laugh at what happened.

Raiders steal tanker from army barracks

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