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Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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Comments

  • #392
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Actually I asked here why she didn't just confront the individual. My snotty answer came after she said "why should I have to?" and implied that nobody else had any input since we weren't there. Well, this is a bulletin board, not a diary. What's the point in putting something out there and not generating a discussion?

    So the onus is on her to police his actions? G'way outta that.

    @hatrickpatrick With respect, will you give some of my posts another read and consider what I'm saying to you? I don't think you're taking on board some of my points.


  • #393
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Well, this is a bulletin board, not a diary. What's the point in putting something out there and not generating a discussion?

    Oh ee eee eee aha, ha. Hoo he haa, ahaaaa. And I thought my jokes were bad.
    You, sir, must be new around here? ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzaMs5iaX7w


  • #394
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Rape is rape, rape is not an inappropriate comment or a joke, it's rape. Anything less could still be awful, but it's not rape. Rape is a specific thing.
    If someone makes an inappropriate comment, tell them to f*ck off. But to place that in the same category as forcing someone to have sex with you against their will just seems a little hyperbolic.

    Certainly the law agrees with hatrickpatrick here regardless of what others may feel is a part of so-called "rape culture". As I mentioned earlier this evening, I don't think terms like "rape culture" or "victim blaming" actually help to dissuade men from behaving in this way, as although we can agree a taxi driver lewdly asking for a blowjob is inappropriate it's a far cry from rape.

    Of course a man acting this way when alone with a woman can cause her to fear being raped - you might even think under the circumstances that it is a reasonable assumption. Nevertheless the fact remains it's not rape, in this case it wouldn't even be illegal, although I would be shocked if a man spoke to a woman in this way.


  • #395
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    silentrust wrote: »
    Interesting to hear your thoughts Millicent. I was reading the other day about girls giving fake numbers to pushy men who demand their contact details in bars and clubs and wondering aloud to my SO about why they would go to the trouble of doing this when they could simply politely say they weren't interested.

    She replied very much along the lines you have here which is that women are socially conditioned to be nurturing combined with a fear that the man will react violently if he doesn't get what he wants.

    I am sure no decent man would want to coerce a girl to speak to him out of fear but of course we don't live in a world entirely of decent people.

    Couple that with a few instances of being called a b.itch for saying you're not interested or having some arsehole get aggressive or insulting with you because you had the audacity to politely turn him down and the fake number thing gets to be the easiest course of action--but not the most productive in the long term.


  • #396
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Millicent wrote: »
    So the onus is on her to police his actions? G'way outta that.

    @hatrickpatrick With respect, will you give some of my posts another read and consider what I'm saying to you? I don't think you're taking on board some of my points.

    I honestly am trying, but I don't think you're seeing the other side of this story at all. It doesn't matter how many ways you try and say it, a lot of guys don't find it easy to tell what a girl is thinking unless she tells him. Simple as. Obviously this seems bizarre to you since that's a skill that you have, like trying to imagine being deaf when you're not. But it's the truth. Which is why assuming guys magically know whether something is ok or not is never going to lead to a happy outcome for anyone involved.


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  • #397
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Most guys aren't good at this. This has been so since the dawn of civilization. There are guys who are, there are also a vast multitude who are not.



    What's basic to you might not be basic for someone else. Non verbal communication might be basic to women, it's not always basic to men. Simple as that. What you define as "the norm" is in fact the norm for women. Not for guys.



    But you are saying that guys should be able to know what's ok without any verbal communication whatsoever, so effectively what you're saying is guys are screwed, because that's a skill a lot of guys just don't have, like it or not. There are skills guys have that women don't and vice versa, this happens to be one of them. What have you got against verbal communication might I ask? Is it such a big deal to clearly explain to someone that what they're doing is a problem? This "take a hint" attitude really baffles me - why bother hinting, just come out and be direct. Then there's no possibility of misunderstanding.

    Actually IIRC studies show that women and men are about equal when it comes to reading social cues and body language... BUT interestingly it's not that men are as good as women but claim not to be but women are actually equally as bad as men and then self report as better than men.
    It's like men claiming to be better at maths than women when in fact both are actually pretty much evenly matched when you encourage both equally rather than tell girls that they suck at math and that they shouldn't value maths and related skills.

    Anyway the point is that many people in general suck at reading those signs but because culturally the task of making a move falls to males they are the ones that take more risks in terms of getting things wrong, either by overstepping bounds and causing distress/offence or "understepping" bounds and missing subtle come ons and ending up frustrated and alone...

    I would say that on the rare occasions that a woman has noticeably hit on me it has been in a format of "it would be ok if you hit on me/asked me out/made a move".


  • #398
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    While we're on the subjects, one of my favourite Twitter Channels is the "Everyday Sexism Project" which I troll fairly regularly but there are some absolutely terrible examples of the kind of behaviour to which women are subjected to every day - even if it's not rape it's no way to speak to a lady.

    Also www.stopstreetharassment.org which has some excellent examples of women confronting their harassers, either by asking them straight out to stop harassing them or by incisive use of wit, which I agree is much better.

    Yes of course you get the odd Feminazi there who claims that something is sexist when it actually isn't, or something is "rapey" when it's not actually rape. (Actually this happens a lot), but it does make for entertaining reading.


  • #399
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Millie I'm curious, do you have a bf at the moment? If so how did he make his interest in you known without doing anything inappropriate? If you think about it from that point of view it might make it easier to see where I'm coming from. Unless women want to make the first move, which most don't seem to, then there has to be a safe way for guys to do so without potentially being labelled a creep if they happen to hit on the wrong girl. What would you suggest, out interest?


  • #400
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I honestly am trying, but I don't think you're seeing the other side of this story at all. It doesn't matter how many ways you try and say it, a lot of guys don't find it easy to tell what a girl is thinking unless she tells him. Simple as. Obviously this seems bizarre to you since that's a skill that you have, like trying to imagine being deaf when you're not. But it's the truth. Which is why assuming guys magically know whether something is ok or not is never going to lead to a happy outcome for anyone involved.

    Probably the most difficult thing for me to accept is that when a woman doesn't respond to a man's advance at all i.e remains silent and passive that this constitutes refusal -the point has been tested in English courts a number of times and usually it comes down on the side of the woman needing to make it clear that she doesn't consent as the defendant needs to have reasonably believed this was the case.

    Of course this is the best place to test these kind of questions and if a woman does feel she has been forced into sex but didn't do enough to make this clear then I would still implore you to contact the Police as this is for a jury to decide.


  • #401
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    silentrust wrote: »
    Probably the most difficult thing for me to accept is that when a woman doesn't respond to a man's advance at all i.e remains silent and passive that this constitutes refusal -the point has been tested in English courts a number of times and usually it comes down on the side of the woman needing to make it clear that she doesn't consent as the defendant needs to have reasonably believed this was the case.

    Of course this is the best place to test these kind of questions and if a woman does feel she has been forced into sex but didn't do enough to make this clear then I would still implore you to contact the Police as this is for a jury to decide.

    I'm not even discussing sex, I'm discussing approaching a woman in any context with a view to flirting with her or hitting on her, and how, without psychic powers, one could do so with someone like Millicent without risking upsetting her.
    As I say, the other way around this is for women to make the first move instead, but most hate that idea so that's clearly not a workable solution. So I ask again, how do you propose that guys figure out whether it's ok to hit on someone or not? Or should we just accept that there will never again be any heterosexual relationships in Ireland because initiating them carries too much risk of causing offense?


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  • #402
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Millicent wrote: »
    So the onus is on her to police his actions? G'way outta that.
    He's an acquaintance of hers, they are both equal adults. The onus is on her to properly confront him if she has a problem with his behavior.

    Getting in a huff about it here, without telling him, is the equivalent of calling up her girlfriends and saying "well, if he doesn't know what he did wrong, I don't have to tell him". That's not how a grown up behaves in situations that require them to take control of their own body.


  • #403
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Millicent wrote: »
    I really think you're insulting the capabilities of your gender. The ability to read social cues is learned from the time we are babies--all of us. It goes back to being able to empathise with the opposite sex and not seeing them as some other, mysterious, unknown entity. We're really not that complex! We're people, same as you. Our wants and needs are not a massive mystery when you pay attention to both verbal and non-verbal cues.

    As to the lack of verbal communication, there are a number of issues that have to be considered. Some are afraid on some level of men, given that constant white noise I spoke about earlier where we're told regularly that a man might try to rape us. Some of us have been raped and unfortunately some natural stress responses cause a person to seize up or clam up against their will.

    Secondly, girls have been very strongly socialized to be "nice". Very often, even when it goes against our best interests, we won't say anything out of concern for the other person's comfort or so as not to create conflict.

    Thirdly, a lot of us haven't been given the tools to respond in a situation like that. When, again, we have been socialized to see our bodies as communal property--and I won't even get into that as I could write a dissertation but trust me, it's a thing--there's a part of the psyche that doesn't see it as our right to refuse access to something that we've been taught is not entirely our own property.

    It's a hard question and there's not an easy answer, but respect and willingness to understand do a whole lot to keep people from making an error when it comes to personal boundaries.

    absolute. utter. drivel.


  • #404
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I'm not even discussing sex, I'm discussing approaching a woman in any context with a view to flirting with her or hitting on her, and how, without psychic powers, one could do so with someone like Millicent without risking upsetting her.
    As I say, the other way around this is for women to make the first move instead, but most hate that idea so that's clearly not a workable solution. So I ask again, how do you propose that guys figure out whether it's ok to hit on someone or not? Or should we just accept that there will never again be any heterosexual relationships in Ireland because initiating them carries too much risk of causing offense?

    Yes indeed Patrick, it's an ugly spectre which keeps cropping up in that men don't seem to object to women expressing an interest in them sexually nearly as much - although from my very limited experience with this, they tend to be a little more subtle!

    I think the bottom line is there must be some extent to which this sort of thing is acceptable - if we had a blanket rule that no stranger could approach another we'd not be able even to breed as a species!

    Of course one solution could be for women to be more direct in expressing an interest in men or lack thereof, although I don't think this is very likely. I also agree with you that subtle hints are not going to work e.g if you ladies tell a man you aren't looking for a relationship right now, he may well interpret this as you being open to the possibility of one in future.

    Having said this it should go without saying that if a woman clearly says she isn't interested and wants to be left alone, a man should respect this, just as she should if the situation were reversed.


  • #405
    Frito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Frito


    Hatrickpatrick I will use your post to springboard as you've explained your dating catch-22 situation well. The pressure on men to make the first move in situations where you fear your action will be misconstrued is paralysing. This does indeed make you vulnerable with expectations for you to modify your behaviour in this instance.

    Women also have a catch-22. We have to be receptive to men but not provoke them and whereas your example is generally within the context of social situations, we are constantly told our vulnerability is everywhere, all the time, either in company or when alone. So we should modify our behaviour everywhere, all the time, either in company or when alone. Regardless of the actual risk (this being an ideology vs. practicality issue I was trying to argue earlier with Leggo).

    I think it's ludicrous, an insult to liberty and capacity, impractical, distracting to the point of dangerous, therefore a flawed position. I don't accept it for women any more than I would for men.


  • #406
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    Millicent wrote: »
    But if the girls are worried about the hugs escalating, surely that's problematic? Just because none of them have said as much to you, doesn't mean there's not a feeling of violation. I have been in several uncomfortable situations where I have kept schtum, out of fight-or-flight freezing, out of an unwillingness to be seen as that "hysterical" over-reactor, over not wanting to bring down the mood, over being in shock etc. etc.

    Can I ask why you are keeping an eye on your friend if you're so sure it's kosher? Genuine question.

    It's smart to keep an eye on everyone, though. That's what friends do. I know one guy who has a habit of saying everything that he thinks without a filter when he's drunk, so I'd keep an eye on him. Another gets so drunk he can't chat women up then feel like **** about it the next day. One girl doesn't realise when she's getting the piss taken out of her, etc.

    I don't try and 'fix' these people, it's their problems to have and I'm not a pretentious arse who thinks I know best, but I'll make sure they're all alright in social situations because I'm a good mate.

    The reason I gave this example is because people were going hysterical about what it is my mates could've done when I alluded to it, and basically assuming he was a sexual predator. So I clarified that by 'handsy'...I meant he hugged people sometimes. Not essentially molested them as a few had suggested (not waiting for more info before instructing me to immediately banish him from my social circle...gotta love unsolicited advice on the Internet sometimes...). Gas how it was me who was accused of assuming all men were rapists a few pages back by some of these same people, huh?

    There's never been a reason for us to worry about it escalating. This is just a weird thing one guy does and, given that we're all close and talk about this stuff quite openly with each other, there's been nothing to make us think we should follow it up. The girls don't feel violated. Please don't tell me how my friends, who you've never met, feel. I really dislike when women play the whole, "Oh honey, I'm sure I understand how these women, who I don't know, feel better than you...because I'm a woman and you're a man. Minor details like 'never having had one single conversation with a person' don't matter. You'd understand why if you had a vagina."

    How do I know they don't feel violated or threatened? They've asked him to move in with them. And I assure you that's not just on account of their innate, womanly need to be polite.

    So please, people, stop telling me how I should deal with my friends because I volunteered a tiny bit of information on here and imaginations ran wild. The info you don't know - because it's not relevant - is making a mockery of your arguments without you realising.
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Right, so now I put it to you that without telling him, he could think he's just beinf friendly or flirty and not have a clue that he's upsetting anyone.

    Oh I agree, I've been saying that since the get-go. It's up to them to set their boundaries, not us to speak on their behalf (though if they specifically asked me to, I probably would. They know the offer is there and haven't taken me up on it. Again, not being pretentious and trying to run everyone's life, I respect that).

    If something were to happen after he'd been explicitly told to calm down, then he's directly disregarding their lack of consent and needs to be dealt with.


  • #407
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    The only justification I could think of for rape I saw in the film 28 days Later when it seemed the survival of the human race depended on two women having kids with a group of soldiers.

    I am not suggesting they should have been harmed or gang raped but in a situation where a country was sufficiently depopulated you can understand why their consent was overruled, even if you don't agree.

    Fortunately the premise of the film is very far fetched!


  • #408
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Frito wrote: »
    Hatrickpatrick I will use your post to springboard as you've explained your dating catch-22 situation well. The pressure on men to make the first move in situations where you fear your action will be misconstrued is paralysing. This does indeed make you vulnerable with expectations for you to modify your behaviour in this instance.

    Women also have a catch-22. We have to be receptive to men but not provoke them and whereas your example is generally within the context of social situations, we are constantly told our vulnerability is everywhere, all the time, either in company or when alone. So we should modify our behaviour everywhere, all the time, either in company or when alone. Regardless of the actual risk (this being an ideology vs. practicality issue I was trying to argue earlier with Leggo).

    I think it's ludicrous, an insult to liberty and capacity, impractical, distracting to the point of dangerous, therefore a flawed position. I don't accept it for women any more than I would for men.

    What do you mean by "we have to be receptive to men but not provoke them"? Not really sure what that means, or else it's just 2AM and I'm a bit slower than usual :p


  • #409
    Frito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Frito


    Be interested, but not lead anyone on.


  • #410
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    silentrust wrote: »
    The only justification I could think of for rape I saw in the film 28 days Later when it seemed the survival of the human race depended on two women having kids with a group of soldiers.
    We don't owe the world a population though. In that scenario, everyone's dead already. Nobody's left to miss humanity...

    Just the animal kingdom, who should probably celebrate the demise of a race who were as cruel to each other as to the natural kingdom.

    On that note....!


  • #411
    starling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    He's an acquaintance of hers, they are both equal adults. The onus is on her to properly confront him if she has a problem with his behavior.

    Getting in a huff about it here, without telling him, is the equivalent of calling up her girlfriends and saying "well, if he doesn't know what he did wrong, I don't have to tell him". That's not how a grown up behaves in situations that require them to take control of their own body.

    Why is the onus on her to tell him not to just assume it's okay to grope her? Why isn't the onus on him not to grope? A grown up does not do sh*tty things on the basis that "nobody told me not to" that's actually a pretty immature way of looking at it.


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  • #412
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    starling wrote: »
    Why is the onus on her to tell him not to just assume it's okay to grope her? Why isn't the onus on him not to grope? A grown up does not do sh*tty things on the basis that "nobody told me not to" that's actually a pretty immature way of looking at it.
    I have been responding to posts about hugging, albeit hugging which the poster felt might have had ulterior motives, yet in which the poster referred to "the hugger" and not "the groper".


  • #413
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,849 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    My take on this is:

    The idea that if you think it's sensible to advise people to be aware of potential danger, you must therefore believe they are partially to blame if something does happen, is nonsense, but prevalent on here.

    The idea that if you think it's sensible to advise people to be aware of potential danger, it is exclusive of wanting to try and eradicate/reduce the level of danger in the first place, is nonsense, but prevalent on here also.


  • #414
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,243 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Just my own view on this but I would imagine most men would know that having sex with a woman who is too drunk to consent is wrong and if they do it then it is rape, same scenario with someone who says no and she doesn't want to continue whatever sexual activity was going on at the time.

    Yes most of us are a lot stronger than women but unless someone is a total scumbag he will stop when told to do so and although I haven't seen it on this thread there is a perception out there that men have no sexual control over themselves which is a bit insulting to 90% of the male population.

    I'm also not so sure about the idea that parents should have to sit their teenage sons down and explain "that no means no", it never needed to be explained to me because any decent guy should know this anyway.

    On the subject of groping, no excuse for that either and giving the excuse that someone is drunk is just a cop out.


  • #415
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭up for anything


    silentrust wrote: »
    The only justification I could think of for rape I saw in the film 28 days Later when it seemed the survival of the human race depended on two women having kids with a group of soldiers.

    I am not suggesting they should have been harmed or gang raped but in a situation where a country was sufficiently depopulated you can understand why their consent was overruled, even if you don't agree.

    Fortunately the premise of the film is very far fetched!

    No. No. No. There is absolutely no excuse for rape. Even in that situation. Women are not brood mares.

    If that was the case then you could allow for rape of men as well. Some men cannot function without regular sex and if the brood women were not available due to pregnancy complications or recent childbirth then equally a couple of males, who are maybe too old/infirm or young to be able to contribute anything of value to the new society, could be be designated sex partners whether they consent to it or not.

    Not much point in building a 'new world' based on coercion and violence. It would just end up like this one.


  • #416
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,505 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    silentrust wrote: »
    Interesting to hear your thoughts Millicent. I was reading the other day about girls giving fake numbers to pushy men who demand their contact details in bars and clubs and wondering aloud to my SO about why they would go to the trouble of doing this when they could simply politely say they weren't interested.
    One time I was approached by a guy who talked to me and my friend for a long time. He talked far more so to my friend (male) than me, I barely joined in to the conversation. He was saying how he was just working for the summer in Ireland and he was looking for people to do stuff with. He asked my friend for his number, and my friend gave it to him, it all seemed pretty above board that he just wanted a contact number and if my friend had anything going on in town he'd let him know (my friend belongs to a club which this guy seemed very interested in).

    After this he asked if he could have my number too. I was surprised, and a bit uncomfortable, but also very drunk, and didn't want to look like a bitch by giving him a fake number if he was going to be hanging out with one of my friends.

    He immediately called my number, right in front of me, to check it was genuine. Which was extremely creepy. If I had given him a fake number I've no idea how he had planned to react. He never called my friend. He called me twice the next day, which I ignored, and repeatedly for a few consecutive days. Every time he called my heart would stop (figuratively speaking), and for a good while afterwards, anytime I got a call from anyone, I'd be scared to look at my phone in case it was him.


  • #417
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    But if the girls are worried about the hugs escalating, surely that's problematic? Just because none of them have said as much to you, doesn't mean there's not a feeling of violation. I have been in several uncomfortable situations where I have kept schtum, out of fight-or-flight freezing, out of an unwillingness to be seen as that "hysterical" over-reactor, over not wanting to bring down the mood, over being in shock etc. etc.

    If I saw a woman running around hugging people, I wouldn't think she was going to rape someone, as one example. And I equally wouldn't think she was going to get raped.
    Yes most of us are a lot stronger than women but unless someone is a total scumbag he will stop when told to do so and although I haven't seen it on this thread there is a perception out there that men have no sexual control over themselves which is a bit insulting to 90% of the male population.

    And is actually a view more suited to, for want of a better term, patriarchy.
    Originally Posted by silentrust View Post
    The only justification I could think of for rape I saw in the film 28 days Later when it seemed the survival of the human race depended on two women having kids with a group of soldiers.

    I am not suggesting they should have been harmed or gang raped but in a situation where a country was sufficiently depopulated you can understand why their consent was overruled, even if you don't agree.

    Fortunately the premise of the film is very far fetched!

    0_o


  • #418
    leggo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    true-or-false wrote: »
    One time I was approached by a guy who talked to me and my friend for a long time. He talked far more so to my friend (male) than me, I barely joined in to the conversation. He was saying how he was just working for the summer in Ireland and he was looking for people to do stuff with. He asked my friend for his number, and my friend gave it to him, it all seemed pretty above board that he just wanted a contact number and if my friend had anything going on in town he'd let him know (my friend belongs to a club which this guy seemed very interested in).

    After this he asked if he could have my number too. I was surprised, and a bit uncomfortable, but also very drunk, and didn't want to look like a bitch by giving him a fake number if he was going to be hanging out with one of my friends.

    He immediately called my number, right in front of me, to check it was genuine. Which was extremely creepy. If I had given him a fake number I've no idea how he had planned to react. He never called my friend. He called me twice the next day, which I ignored, and repeatedly for a few consecutive days. Every time he called my heart would stop (figuratively speaking), and for a good while afterwards, anytime I got a call from anyone, I'd be scared to look at my phone in case it was him.

    That guy has done literally zero wrong. He's asked for your number and you've given it to him then...shock horror, he had the audacity to use it! The 'checking your number' trick is as old as the hills. And yet you're acting as if he should be feared as a predator.

    It just sounds like you're a bit passive tbh, that you couldn't politely let someone know you weren't interested. And that's somehow his fault now. This story doesn't belong anywhere near a rape thread.


  • #419
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    osarusan wrote: »
    The idea that if you think it's sensible to advise people to be aware of potential danger, you must therefore believe they are partially to blame if something does happen, is nonsense, but prevalent on here.
    Personally I wouldn't go so far as saying "they are partially to blame", but I think it's reasonable to suggest that someone putting themselves in an unreasonable level of vulnerability deserves some criticism for that.

    That irresponsibility is completely independent of the attacker's wrongdoing; one does not mitigate the other.

    But, just as it would be irresponsible for a guy to un-necessarily provoke trouble on a night out, because he makes himself vulnerable to a physical attack, so too is it irresponsible for a woman who allows herself be vulnerable to a rape - for example, by walking home drunk and alone, through a deserted, built-up, dangerous area. Does it suck that a woman has to take that precaution? Absolutely. It sucks that men have to act responsibly in avoiding a potential attack in their own street as well. It's a hard knock life.
    true-or-false wrote: »
    He immediately called my number, right in front of me, to check it was genuine. Which was extremely creepy.
    Or. You know. To give you his number. Either way, it's hardly "extremely creepy" territory, is it.


  • #420
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    leggo wrote: »
    That guy has done literally zero wrong. He's asked for your number and you've given it to him then...shock horror, he had the audacity to use it! The 'checking your number' trick is as old as the hills. And yet you're acting as if he should be feared as a predator.

    It just sounds like you're a bit passive tbh, that you couldn't politely let someone know you weren't interested. And that's somehow his fault now. This story doesn't belong anywhere near a rape thread.

    This is pretty funny.

    You got really offended when people took up your post about your friend's drunken hugging habits and accused them of not knowing the real facts, or the people involved, and yet here you are, confidently explaining someone else's experience to them, and letting them know how they are actually misunderstanding their own experience.

    The irony aboundeth.


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  • #421
    desertcircus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    absolute. utter. drivel.

    Have you any actual points to make, or can you manage nothing more cohesive than this in response to a well-written and tightly argued post?


This discussion has been closed.
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