Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

Wow folks this thread is becoming incredibly vitriolic! Might I make a suggestion here, at the risk of everyone jumping down my throat but such is the burden of being a lone voice of reason in the desert Everyone is talking about *unwanted* attention. Can I just point out that as should be obvious, indeed as has been demonstrated even juts by this thread alone, everyone out there has different boundaries and different definitions of appropriate. Could I also suggest that a lot of the people talking about *unwanted* attention also seem to be implying that they have never actually directly told the other person that such attention makes them uncomfortable.

Now before you dismiss this as victim blaming just hear me out: a handshake is physical contact, just on a lesser scale than a hug. How far such contact can go before being inappropriate is entirely down to the individual - hell, I know some people who during the Swine Flu outbreak were nervous about even shaking hands at mass or even with friends, and that's completely cool. Point is, what may seem obvious to YOU as "inappropriate" may seem completely normal to another person, depending on their family background, their own close group of friends, or even, dare I say it, the fact that nobody has ever in any way acted uncomfortable or told them they were over the top.

Life is about communication. I'm quite baffled by the number of people who take the view that everyone else should magically or psychically read their minds and know what kind of friendly affection they regard as sexual and what they don't. To be honest, when I meet female friends in a club I usually say hi with a hug or even a kiss on the cheek (or a kiss on the hand if I'm being particularly cheesy). Now this thread has made me a bit paranoid that I might be grossly offending some people but you know what? I doubt it, because if I don't do it first they'll come up to me and greet me the same way, it's just not something most of us see as being a big deal.

If I was making anyone uncomfortable it would be totally and completely unintentional and I'd very much hope they'd rationally talk to me about it so as I would know I was doing something wrong, instead of going online and giving out about me to random strangers on Boards while pretending it's ok next time they see me. I can't imagine anyone worse than people thinking "Oh God here he comes again, why won't he just feck off" - I'd hope people would be mature enough to TELL me that I'm being OTT or that my occasional flirtiness is offensive beyond just being fun. The fact that it's reciprocated seems like a good indicator to me but based on this thread I'm no longer so sure.

But I know one thing, the world would become a very cold, unfriendly place if everyone became completely frigid because they're afraid of offending someone at best or being sued for harassment at worst. So how about before it gets that far, TALK to the person, TELL them that you're not comfortable with it and if they have any decency, which most people do, they'll respect your boundaries.

Escalating such things to become examples of "rape culture" or anything like that is only going to perpetuate the somewhat justified view among a lot of guys that they can't express themselves at all anymore without demonizing themselves, and also that it's impossible to do anything about it because there's no way to read someone's mind so it's better to just not do anything in case you're completely unknowingly doing something wrong. And then you get articles in the Indo at the weekends complaining that Irish guys are too shy, never make the first move, are awful at flirting and so on. I've long suspected that this gulf of communication is partly responsible for that and the reason guys are so reserved now is that they're afraid of being labelled creepy through absolutely innocent intentions. I had a Turkish girl in a nightclub two weeks ago tell me she was amazed that I'd approached her at all at the bar, even more amazed that I'd put my arm around her as we went to find somewhere to sit, and absolutely flabbergasted to find, after we kissed, that I was completely sober that night as I was getting up at a reasonable hour the next day. In her year of living in Ireland she'd found most Irish guys to be very reserved, awkward and shy, far from actually going up to a girl at the bar and saying hello without having downed an entire pint of vodka first to calm the nerves.

tl;dr version - if something bothers you, TELL the person about it. In my view it's not really fair to complain that someone is too forward if you've never actually explained to them that your standard of inappropriate differs from theirs, unless you want a world in which nobody moves lest they cause offense, which I highly doubt anyone actually wants?

PucaMama wrote: »

why do you keep saying i have "issues"? my problem is with people i dont no very well hugging me or touching me without my consent. thats natural and completely within my rights.

I'm as flummoxed as you are. What is hard about "Don't touch people unless you're sure they want you to touch them?!" It's not difficult. Really.

Millicent wrote: »

I'm as flummoxed as you are. What is hard about "Don't touch people unless you're sure they want you to touch them?!" It's not difficult. Really.

On the flip side, though, you're having people calling one friend hugging another (who'd happily hug him back at other times) sexual assault. I mean, what indication does that guy have that people mightn't want to be hugged at times?

I think hatrickpatrick nailed it by saying it comes down to communication.

I also think that the above argument (which is an extension of the example I gave) has people substituting in my friend for people they've experienced in their own lives. So they see him as the annoying guy at the bar and react as such, when really I'm giving as fair an example (on both sides) as I can.

Just because some may feel violated by a hug, and they've every right to, doesn't mean that others will. And the girls have never said that they feel violated, either, for the record. The hugs are fine as long as they don't escalate. That's what they're worried about.

leggo wrote: »

Just because some may feel violated by a hug, and they've every right to, doesn't mean that others will. And the girls have never said that they feel violated, either, for the record. The hugs are fine as long as they don't escalate. That's what they're worried about.

Right, so now I put it to you that without telling him, he could think he's just beinf friendly or flirty and not have a clue that he's upsetting anyone.

:eek: = my face when I discover you're one of my friends and this whole thing is about me
Seriously though I'm only half joking there. But I'm not going to suddenly become an introvert based on this thread unless someone tells me I'm being inappropriate, because the flip side of it is that people might then ask me if I'm ok since it would be so out of character for me not to do those things.

I think a lot of women don't realize how blindly most guys fly. There's such a discrepancy between what one girl finds "cute" or even "romantic" and what another finds "creepy", and as I said this has caused in Ireland an entire generation of lads who are too scared to make any moves lest they become "that creepy guy". I have to say I felt really sad after meeting the Turkish girl I mentioned, that her impression of Irish guys was that we're all shy, frigid messes and that my forwardness was the most bizarre thing in the world. I hate the thought that this is what people think of Irish guys in general, but when you have threads like this who can blame them? Without communication, how is anyone supposed to know what's ok and what isn't?

That a foreign tourist in Ireland would say to me that in order to chat her up and put my arm around her I'd surely have to be piddly eyed is mind numbingly depressing.

Lyaiera wrote: »

That'd all be correct except you're missing out the part where people have said they were uncomfortable with certain things only to be told they're wrong and weird for thinking that. If someone tells me something like that I'll say "Fair enough, I don't see the problem with it in most scenarios but it bothers you so I won't put you in that situation." Then I stop doing it. I don't accuse the other person of anything because they're being honest and trying to make it better for both of us. They don't get uncomfortable and I don't unwittingly make someone feel uncomfortable.

Rape culture is being told, "Don't do that" but continuing to do it or saying there's something wrong with someone for not wanting it to happen. It's a pretty ****ing direct line in logic from saying "No" to a hug and being ignored to saying "No" to sex and being ignored. In both situations the person's wishes were ignored, that person is being abusive, that's the "rape." When the person is insulted and derided for having boundaries that's "rape culture."

Ok I'll disagree with you there but I respect your views. Rape is an extremely strong word and it shouldn't, in my view, be used to describe anything less than rape. I agree with most of what you're saying and that it's absolutely wrong for people's boundaries not to be respected, but I find the throwing around of the word "rape" to describe lesser wrongs is counter productive. It trivializes one of the worst crimes a person can be subjected to and damages the credibility of the discussion. In my view, rape culture would be people defending actual rape. Not things which are very, very loosely related to rape.

Now someone's going to tell me that I'm a dick and I don't respect people's boundaries and so on. I do. I just feel that rape is a very distinct, disturbing and appalling crime and the waters shouldn't be muddied by broadening the definition to include harassment or anything else along those lines. Rape, as has been said, is rape.

Millicent wrote: »

Don't assume someone is happy with being touched. Just because someone didn't mind before, doesn't mean they don't mind this time.

And how, without communication, is one supposed to know that? Put yourself in our shoes and you'll see why so many guys joke that in this day and age you feel like you can't shake hands or say hi to a girl without first getting a written contract authorizing you to.

Is your proposed solution to this that everyone should assume by default that they can't handshake, hug, whatever and just never do it lest they offend? Because that would in my view make the world an extremely depressing place to live.
I'm sure this doesn't come as any surprise to you but guys need verbal direction. We don't have the same instincts women seem to have. We have absolutely no way of knowing whether being forward will be received as "creepy" or "romantic" or "cute". There's literally absolutely no way to tell beforehand, it's a shot in the dark every time. Now you could be a guy like me who doesn't get embarrassed easily and therefore doesn't mind being shot down, but surely you can see why this frustrates guys so much. Sometimes it seems that whether it's creepy or cute depends on how she feels about you, which of course you have no way of knowing BEFORE you've done it. So there's no way out short of hiding in a cupboard all day.

This is why a lot of guys sit around wishing girls would make first moves instead, which of course most girls will tell you is the guy's job (You might not, but most girls I know are adamant about that). So the guy is potentially damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Without communicating directly that something makes you uncomfortable, how would you suggest to solve this? Because the current situation in which guys are terrified of getting it wrong and being labelled creepy, and foreign girls are as confused by Irish guys as the girl I met a few weeks ago, is complete bollocks, and is totally unsustainable in the long run or there'll be absolutely no relationships whatsoever formed between Irish men and women!

Again, I'm just wondering do you not see that your inappropriate and someone else's will probably differ and that if you never speak up about this there's absolutely no way to read your mind? Or would you prefer if no man ever flirted with any Irish girl ever again lest he be construed as "creepy" instead of "cute" as another guy might be, or as he might have been with a different girl?

PucaMama wrote: »

why do you keep saying i have "issues"? my problem is with people i dont no very well hugging me or touching me without my consent. thats natural and completely within my rights.

but thats not what you said, you clearly said everyone, no matter how well they know you, should keep their hands to themself.
i was simply pointing out that thats over the top, weird and indicative of some personal issues with being touched.

Lyaiera wrote: »

when a woman is told not to get a taxi home alone it's because of the threat of rape whether it's an inappropriate comment from a taxi driver, a joke about paying with a blowjob or a hand placed on your leg. And that is very firmly in the rape culture category, and so is everything that arises from those threats.

Rape is rape, rape is not an inappropriate comment or a joke, it's rape. Anything less could still be awful, but it's not rape. Rape is a specific thing.
If someone makes an inappropriate comment, tell them to f*ck off. But to place that in the same category as forcing someone to have sex with you against their will just seems a little hyperbolic.

Millicent wrote: »

@hatrickpatrick: social cues. That's a pretty good start. It's not wrong to mistakenly initiate contact with someone. It's a big mistake to not pick up on body language, facial reactions, other socially and biologically accepted indicators of comfort level. That's not something someone should have to have explained to them.

Most guys aren't good at this. This has been so since the dawn of civilization. There are guys who are, there are also a vast multitude who are not.

And I really don't mean to sound callous, but it's not anyone else's job to educate men on the basic nuances of social interaction, so no, I won't put myself in your shoes. Hurt feeling are a lot easier to deal with than personal bodily violations.

What's basic to you might not be basic for someone else. Non verbal communication might be basic to women, it's not always basic to men. Simple as that. What you define as "the norm" is in fact the norm for women. Not for guys.

I'm not saying no physical contact ever. But there's a chasm of difference between kissing your female friend on the cheek in greeting and giving someone a "back hug" as described in leggo's post that clearly is something that alarms leggo, his friends and his female friends if it's something they actively watch and warn others about.

But you are saying that guys should be able to know what's ok without any verbal communication whatsoever, so effectively what you're saying is guys are screwed, because that's a skill a lot of guys just don't have, like it or not. There are skills guys have that women don't and vice versa, this happens to be one of them. What have you got against verbal communication might I ask? Is it such a big deal to clearly explain to someone that what they're doing is a problem? This "take a hint" attitude really baffles me - why bother hinting, just come out and be direct. Then there's no possibility of misunderstanding.

I really think you're insulting the capabilities of your gender. The ability to read social cues is learned from the time we are babies--all of us. It goes back to being able to empathise with the opposite sex and not seeing them as some other, mysterious, unknown entity. We're really not that complex! We're people, same as you. Our wants and needs are not a massive mystery when you pay attention to both verbal and non-verbal cues.

As to the lack of verbal communication, there are a number of issues that have to be considered. Some are afraid on some level of men, given that constant white noise I spoke about earlier where we're told regularly that a man might try to rape us. Some of us have been raped and unfortunately some natural stress responses cause a person to seize up or clam up against their will.

Secondly, girls have been very strongly socialized to be "nice". Very often, even when it goes against our best interests, we won't say anything out of concern for the other person's comfort or so as not to create conflict.

Thirdly, a lot of us haven't been given the tools to respond in a situation like that. When, again, we have been socialized to see our bodies as communal property--and I won't even get into that as I could write a dissertation but trust me, it's a thing--there's a part of the psyche that doesn't see it as our right to refuse access to something that we've been taught is not entirely our own property.

It's a hard question and there's not an easy answer, but respect and willingness to understand do a whole lot to keep people from making an error when it comes to personal boundaries.

silentrust wrote: »

Of course the most common misconception is that the most common form is rape by a stranger. As a matter of fact intimate partner rape is by far the most prevalent followed by rape by a trusted friend or relative.

As for stranger rape, travelling in groups, keeping your phone in your hand when going to your car, not leaving your drink unattended should just be a matter of common sense.

What's not helping the issue is when Feminists claim that people who recommend you take safety precautions are indulging in so-called "victim blaming" - if I leave my house unlocked and it is burgled, I do bear some (I say some!) of the responsibility for what happened due to my negligence.

When the property is made of flesh and blood, not bricks and mortar, common sense safety precautions seem to fly out of the window.

We should all just start encasing the lady gardens in cement. That'll fix things.

Men: If you think that women complaining about rape is bad due to some rationalized reasons/circumstances in your head: Talk to a priest and/or a psychologist asap; get help now.

Women: If you think men are born rapists, don't forget who's responsibility it is to select the right mate, raise, bring up and protect these men from ideas and experiences when they are most venerable and impressionable; you.