Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

27-05-2013 07:27PM

leggo wrote: »

I had to study this to get my security licence. Your definition of assault is right, but the example that I gave (bumping into a stranger on a bus, say) shows the large leeway in the law, so there must be both intent and damage to charge someone with assault. Not that this matters...a hug doesn't count either way.

You did say the hugs were unwanted Leggo. As a woman I can tell you that an unwanted hug - from behind no less, is a very very uncomfortable thing.

By it's nature it means the man is putting his hands on parts of my body that I only want a very few people to touch. Its an intrusion, and I'm not belittling serious assaults when I say that I have felt my bodily integrity was violated, my private space invaded. My feelings disregarded.

The 'playful hugs' from behind that I've had have involved very close, uninvited physical contact. You know that, or you wouldn't warn your female friends about the groper friend. Nobody needs to be warned about normal behaviour, but your familiarity with it has normalised it for you.

I've refused to join people on a night out on occasion because I've known a 'hugger' will be there and I'll be made defensive and uncomfortable by the end of the night.

Tell him to stop. Tell him it's creepy and he has to read the signs. Tell him friendly hugs are fine, but getting behind a girl and putting his body against hers and his hands on her is wrong. She doesn't see him coming, she can't dodge him, it's up to him to police his behaviour, not her. If he sees your disapproval, you might spare a friend going home with a lump in her throat after feeling that she was surreptitiously felt up, but would have been 'overreacting' to complain.

Cody Pomeray · 27-05-2013 07:43PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

If I go into the bank tomorrow and there is a bag of money on the floor, I still know it is wrong to take it. Simple as.

Well your own argument can be used against you, to a certain extent.

Although it is wrong to take it, is it not also irresponsible for the bank to leave it lying around?

I'm not sympathising with the article under reference in this thread, but I have seen both men and women do fantastically stupid things on nights out. People who place themselves in unreasonably vulnerable situations are deserving of a certain amount of condemnation.

Amirani · 27-05-2013 08:21PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

People who place themselves in unreasonably vulnerable situations are deserving of a certain amount of condemnation.

One could say the same about yourself after the reaction your post it going to get. :P

leggo · 27-05-2013 08:22PM

Candie wrote: »

You did say the hugs were unwanted Leggo. As a woman I can tell you that an unwanted hug - from behind no less, is a very very uncomfortable thing.

By it's nature it means the man is putting his hands on parts of my body that I only want a very few people to touch. Its an intrusion, and I'm not belittling serious assaults when I say that I have felt my bodily integrity was violated, my private space invaded. My feelings disregarded.

The 'playful hugs' from behind that I've had have involved very close, uninvited physical contact. You know that, or you wouldn't warn your female friends about the groper friend. Nobody needs to be warned about normal behaviour, but your familiarity with it has normalised it for you.

I've refused to join people on a night out on occasion because I've known a 'hugger' will be there and I'll be made defensive and uncomfortable by the end of the night.

Tell him to stop. Tell him it's creepy and he has to read the signs. Tell him friendly hugs are fine, but getting behind a girl and putting his body against hers and his hands on her is wrong. She doesn't see him coming, she can't dodge him, it's up to him to police his behaviour, not her. If he sees your disapproval, you might spare a friend going home with a lump in her throat after feeling that she was surreptitiously felt up, but would have been 'overreacting' to complain.

I'm quite happy with how we're handling the situation (or lack thereof, as is the case currently). People who are saying that slagging someone about something is 'enabling' them sound like they're looking for an excuse to use that word, rather than understanding it. It makes it socially uncomfortable for him to do it and easier for the girls to back away and set their own boundaries.

Not everything has to be handled with a sit-down conversation were people are told how to run their lives. If he was to then actively ignore their boundaries, once they know feel confident to set them themselves, that's when we'd have to step in.

Rosy Posy · 27-05-2013 09:07PM

bacon n eggs wrote: »

Is this all steming from what happened to you is it all one event or in general?

All experienced unfortunately :mad:

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 09:20PM

Candie wrote: »

You did say the hugs were unwanted Leggo. As a woman I can tell you that an unwanted hug - from behind no less, is a very very uncomfortable thing.

By it's nature it means the man is putting his hands on parts of my body that I only want a very few people to touch. Its an intrusion, and I'm not belittling serious assaults when I say that I have felt my bodily integrity was violated, my private space invaded. My feelings disregarded.

The 'playful hugs' from behind that I've had have involved very close, uninvited physical contact. You know that, or you wouldn't warn your female friends about the groper friend. Nobody needs to be warned about normal behaviour, but your familiarity with it has normalised it for you.

I've refused to join people on a night out on occasion because I've known a 'hugger' will be there and I'll be made defensive and uncomfortable by the end of the night.

Tell him to stop. Tell him it's creepy and he has to read the signs. Tell him friendly hugs are fine, but getting behind a girl and putting his body against hers and his hands on her is wrong. She doesn't see him coming, she can't dodge him, it's up to him to police his behaviour, not her. If he sees your disapproval, you might spare a friend going home with a lump in her throat after feeling that she was surreptitiously felt up, but would have been 'overreacting' to complain.

to be honest, this all sounds more like your own personal issues with being touched than anything else

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 09:24PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

to be honest, this all sounds more like your own personal issues with being touched than anything else

nothing wrong with not wanting to be touched by strangers.

27-05-2013 09:26PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

to be honest, this all sounds more like your own personal issues with being touched than anything else

Being touched in the right way, at the right time, by the right person is a wonderful part of life that I have no issues with whatsoever.

Being touched against my will, by someone whom I do not want to touch me, is definitely something I have issues with.

It's somewhat insulting to imply that I have 'personal issues' because I do not enjoy the latter.

Cody Pomeray · 27-05-2013 09:26PM

PucaMama wrote: »

nothing wrong with not wanting to be touched by strangers.

But this poster is talking about someone who is at least at the level of an acquaintance, she should be able to confront the individual and move on amicably.

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 09:33PM

Candie wrote: »

Being touched in the right way, at the right time, by the right person is a wonderful part of life that I have no issues with whatsoever.

Being touched against my will, by someone whom I do not want to touch me, is definitely something I have issues with.

It's somewhat insulting to imply that I have 'personal issues' because I do not enjoy the latter.

from your attitude and the language youre using it sounds like a lot more than just the average person's aversion to an unwanted hug. like i said, my friend was drunk ane annoying my head with hugs at the weekend but id never accuse him of assault or get all precious about being touched

27-05-2013 09:34PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

But this poster is talking about someone who is at least at the level of an acquaintance, she should be able to confront the individual and move on amicably.

And he should be able to control his urge to grab me when I clearly don't want to be grabbed, or to sneak up behind me and press himself against me while holding me so tightly I can't move.

But you're right, it's up to me to police my behaviour, as it is up to him to police his. I do so by avoiding the uncomfortable situation, and he moves on to another person to grope under the guise of 'hugging'.

I know damn well that if I complain that I'm uncomfortable that he'll imply, to all and sundry, the same thing that a poster above implied. That there is something wrong with me, and that he's just being 'friendly'.

GalwayGuy2 · 27-05-2013 09:37PM

This threads gotten a little bit off topic. But yeah, it's always the rapists fault, and never the victim.

For the very simple reason that a normal person won't rape someone.

You can fire ahead and tell all the woman get in the kitchen jokes you want. It's not going to do anything but bore me and make the person telling them look like an asshole.

Tbh, I was trying to make a point there, and not saying I was about to say those jokes.

Cody Pomeray · 27-05-2013 09:38PM

Candie wrote: »

I do so by avoiding the uncomfortable situation, and he moves on to another person to grope under the guise of 'hugging'.

Why don't you just confront him?

It's possible you're taking this completely the wrong way.

27-05-2013 09:39PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

from your attitude and the language youre using it sounds like a lot more than just the average person's aversion to an unwanted hug. like i said, my friend was drunk ane annoying my head with hugs at the weekend but id never accuse him of assault or get all precious about being touched

Did he come up behind you and press himself against your backside, putting his hands around your front (so that he was touching the underside of where your breasts would be if you were a woman)? Was he very much bigger than you and holding you so tight that you couldn't wriggle away? When you asked him to back off, did he laugh at how uptight you are while squeezing you tighter?

Don't call me 'precious' when your experience is obviously not the same as mine.

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 09:42PM

Candie wrote: »

Did he come up behind you and press himself against your backside, putting his hands around your front (so that he was touching the underside of where your breasts would be if you were a woman)? Was he very much bigger than you and holding you so tight that you couldn't wriggle away? When you asked him to back off, did he laugh at how uptight you are while squeezing you tighter?

Don't call me 'precious' when your experience is obviously not the same as mine.

completely unreasonable behavior

27-05-2013 09:43PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Why don't you just confront him?

It's possible you're taking this completely the wrong way.

No, it's really not.

But you weren't there so you can't judge. I was, so I'm a better judge of the dynamic than you are.

There is only one way to take the sort of thing I'm talking about. Sometimes a hug is a front for a surreptitious grope, and having had both, I know the difference.

So, the receiver of the unwanted attention has to explain herself again and again.

I won't be explaining again why I don't want to be touched against my will to the extent that it makes me uncomfortable.

I shouldn't have to.

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 09:43PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

But this poster is talking about someone who is at least at the level of an acquaintance, she should be able to confront the individual and move on amicably.

it doesnt matter how well she knows the person, they should keep their hands to themselves.

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 09:46PM

Candie wrote: »

Did he come up behind you and press himself against your backside, putting his hands around your front (so that he was touching the underside of where your breasts would be if you were a woman)? Was he very much bigger than you and holding you so tight that you couldn't wriggle away? When you asked him to back off, did he laugh at how uptight you are while squeezing you tighter?

Don't call me 'precious' when your experience is obviously not the same as mine.

your experience? this is the imagined action of another posters friend. you are even imagining this hypothetical hug in a rapey way. the average person, if you told them to imagine a hug from behind, would not go down that road. this is clearly your personal issue, and thats fine, buts its not how the average person would react to a hug from a friend, wanted or not

Cody Pomeray · 27-05-2013 09:48PM

Candie wrote: »

But you weren't there so you can't judge. I was, so I'm a better judge of the dynamic than you are.

If you have sole authority over this narrative, why are you even sharing it on a bulletin board?

Clearly anything that doesn't accord with your take on the situation isn't going to be considered adequate.

I won't be explaining again why I don't want to be touched against my will to the extent that it makes me uncomfortable.

I shouldn't have to.

You kind of do, actually.

I regularly hug my friends... I'm a bit of a natural hugger, I suppose that hugging, unless simultaneously instigated (by way of a prior agreement, or on the count of 3) can constitute "being touched against one's will", but the recipient really should lay down the fact that they're not comfortable with it.

Again, why don't you just confront this individual?

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 09:50PM

PucaMama wrote: »

it doesnt matter how well she knows the person, they should keep their hands to themselves.

this attitude to me is not normal. that a group of friends should sit around being careful not to touch each other, occassionally asking permission to give you a congratulatory pat on the back or friendly arm around you. this is not a normal attitude to have. you are of course entitled to have it but you cant expect everyone else to know about your issues with being touched. especially after a few drinks in a party atmosphere

27-05-2013 09:52PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If you have sole authority over this narrative, why are you even sharing it on a bulletin board?

Clearly anything that doesn't accord with your take on the situation isn't going to be considered adequate.

You kind of do, actually.

I regularly hug my friends... I'm a bit of a natural hugger, I suppose that hugging, unless simultaneously instigated (by way of a prior agreement, or on the count of 3) can constitute "being touched against one's will", but the recipient really should lay down the fact that they're not comfortable with it.

Again, why don't you just confront this individual?

Telling someone to let go and back off is clearly indicating their discomfort.

I shared how what can seem to a bystander to be an innocent playful hug can sometimes be a cover for something else.

It may not meet your standards of unwelcome attention, but it meets mine.

Cody Pomeray · 27-05-2013 09:55PM

Candie wrote: »

It may not meet your standards of unwelcome attention, but it meets mine.

And that's all that matters. Clearly you've already convinced yourself that you are right; there seems to be nothing expected of AH users but to confirm that position for you.

I think I'll just move on instead.

**Hugs**

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 09:56PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

this attitude to me is not normal. that a group of friends should sit around being careful not to touch each other, occassionally asking permission to give you a congratulatory pat on the back or friendly arm around you. this is not a normal attitude to have. you are of course entitled to have it but you cant expect everyone else to know about your issues with being touched. especially after a few drinks in a party atmosphere

did i say all that? did i realy? or did i say grabbing someone in a hug is wrong especialy after being told not to?

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 09:58PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If you have sole authority over this narrative, why are you even sharing it on a bulletin board?

Clearly anything that doesn't accord with your take on the situation isn't going to be considered adequate.

You kind of do, actually.

I regularly hug my friends... I'm a bit of a natural hugger, I suppose that hugging, unless simultaneously instigated (by way of a prior agreement, or on the count of 3) can constitute "being touched against one's will", but the recipient really should lay down the fact that they're not comfortable with it.

Again, why don't you just confront this individual?

she was the only one of us in the situation so how could anyone else have a take on it

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 09:58PM

PucaMama wrote: »

did i say all that? did i realy? or did i say grabbing someone in a hug is wrong especialy after being told not to?

nope, you didnt say that. you said anyone, no matter how well they know you should keep their hands to themselves. that aounds pretty much like the scenario i outlined

Frito · 27-05-2013 10:00PM

I think she did tell him to back off, and he laughed at her for being uptight and did it a little more, unless I misread your post Candie?

Why is it that blokes being overfamiliar in the context of alcohol is considered normal behaviour yet women walking down a dark street is irresponsible behaviour? Is it fallacious to apply the same standard to both?

27-05-2013 10:01PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

And that's all that matters. Clearly you've already convinced yourself that you are right; there seems to be nothing expected of AH users but to confirm that position for you.

I think I'll just move on instead.

**Hugs**

I am right. I'm right that I didn't want to be grabbed, squeezed, pressed against and held tightly so I couldn't extricate myself.

You can keep that hug.

PucaMama · 27-05-2013 10:15PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

nope, you didnt say that. you said anyone, no matter how well they know you should keep their hands to themselves. that aounds pretty much like the scenario i outlined

whats so wrong with asking people to keep their hands to themselves

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 10:23PM

PucaMama wrote: »

whats so wrong with asking people to keep their hands to themselves

if thats what you want, not a thing. but in regards to friends and family its weird and you cant expect people with normal attitudes to touching to be constantly aware of your issues, especially after a few drinks in a party atmosphere

Millicent · 27-05-2013 10:50PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Candie wrote: »

Telling someone to let go and back off is clearly indicating their discomfort.

I shared how what can seem to a bystander to be an innocent playful hug can sometimes be a cover for something else.

It may not meet your standards of unwelcome attention, but it meets mine.

And that's all that matters. Clearly you've already convinced yourself that you are right; there seems to be nothing expected of AH users but to confirm that position for you.

I think I'll just move on instead.

**Hugs**

Wow. And this is the problem right here. The poster has very clearly told you that her boundaries were violated and instead of acknowledging that, trusting her word and saying "well that was shitty; I'm sorry that happened to you", you give her a snotty answer and invalidate her experience because it doesn't fit with your preconceptions.

Honestly, these threads are like shouting into a fucking wind tunnel for all the understanding or willingness to listen that's displayed at times.

ETA: And yes, that frankly is all that matters in this--her personal boundaries and somebody crossing them.

Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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