LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

Condenser · 24-04-2013 10:19PM

shane0007 wrote: »

What's the issue for HP's going through a buffer? I am so glad I am not one of those clueless goons who installed one, lol! I am just one that didn't!
Buffers & UFH work great together with oil.

Because they get more inefficient the higher in temp they go, so you need to seperate the heating and DHW to maximise performance. Heating as low as it can go but achieve temp and DHW set to a set point.
If it all goes through the one tank you're constantly heating to 50 or 55C to satisfy the hot water requirement and at least double your bills.
This is where all Hp's fall down, no real knowledge of what makes a fridge system efficient and inefficient. So they whack them in like an oil boiler when its the furthest thing from.

Not made by an irish company that went bust by any chance was it?

shane0007 · 24-04-2013 10:32PM

Ah, I see the point now. It also makes sense with what you posted a good while ago in relation to UFH temps. Apologies for my ignorance then as I was comparing oil designed UFH & comparing with HP design temps. I can see now how the two are very different. Everyday is a learning day!
So what is the best way to heat DHW in conjunction with space heating with HP?

Condenser · 24-04-2013 10:37PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Ah, I see the point now. It also makes sense with what you posted a good while ago in relation to UFH temps. Apologies for my ignorance then as I was comparing oil designed UFH & comparing with HP design temps. I can see now how the two are very different. Everyday is a learning day!
So what is the best way to heat DHW in conjunction with space heating with HP?

With the heat pump but through a domestic fresh water system so it only needs to reach 45 - 50C and not require an immersion to stay safe. On a high performance unit it will still be twice as good as oil. "Thermodynamic" (what ever that means aren't all heating appliances thermodynamic) panels would not count as high performance

Condenser · 24-04-2013 10:39PM

The hot water should have its own dedicated tank. The UFH doesn't need a buffer unless stats are installed. Control flow to each through two pumps or a divertor valve.

shane0007 · 24-04-2013 10:47PM

What method of sizing the DHW tank would you use?
Why would it not be important if no room stats installed when no buffer installed? I would have thought that the stats would be an advantage to shut down the loop when room temp is satisfied & thus reduce the load on the HP.

Condenser · 24-04-2013 10:54PM

shane0007 wrote: »

What method of sizing the DHW tank would you use?
Why would it not be important if no room stats installed when no buffer installed? I would have thought that the stats would be an advantage to shut down the loop when room temp is satisfied & thus reduce the load on the HP.

Because you have lower temp you need a larger tank, min 500L but it depends on shower types, bath types and no. of people.

You need a buffer with stats as when stats close they reduce the flow available through the HP. Lower flow means higher water outlet temps, as the unit is still producing the same amount of energy, which means your COP will drop. Also when stats call at different times it would activate the HP so you end up starting an electric motor 20-30 times a day as opposed to 2-3, No biggie in an oil boiler, massive mistake in a HP.

shane0007 · 24-04-2013 11:07PM

Makes perfect sense.
It also explains the use of stats then with a buffer.

I went on a manufacturer/importer day course a long time ago in the NE of S.Ireland to try & open my mind with them & came away hating them, due to it being a speal about how little they cost to run and how the one in their house is so wonderful.

Thanks for the proper explanation but don't worry, I won't be rushing out installing them as I know I still know FA about them!

Condenser · 24-04-2013 11:10PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Makes perfect sense.
It also explains the use of stats then with a buffer.

I went on a manufacturer/importer day course a long time ago in the NE of S.Ireland to try & open my mind with them & came away hating them, due to it being a speal about how little they cost to run and how the one in their house is so wonderful.

Thanks for the proper explanation but don't worry, I won't be rushing out installing them as I know I still know FA about them!

You're in good company

and i've a fair idea who you're talking about

Runrep · 08-05-2013 07:10PM

OMG, Ive been reading this for 40mins and the best stuff is in the last few posts! (Particular thanks to Shane007 and Condenser)

Hi Condenser, (and everyone else) you obviously know your stuff and if I lived in Ireland, your phone would be ringing for an appt. As Im in London, I wondered if you'd be good enough to comment on any of the following 'challenging' project:
I have an 8 yr old 6kw Activair air/water heat pump (totally reliable so never spent a penny on mechanicals) plus an LPG HE boiler. (Id love to get rid of LPG as slepping 19kilo bottles on board is a pain!) Thinking to rejig/tweak/upgrade/replace/swap/rethink the whole systems and would value your thoughts. It feeds 8 radiators and 2sqM underfloor (I live on a v well insulated, d/glazed, 100 sq M (1.9m head height) static houseboat, 240v, 64 amp supply with mains water). Im told shallow, fast running, part salt, tidal River Thames is generally colder than the air, so water source system idea abandoned. The existing system feeds an S plan wet system with room stat, (pointless) TRV's and cyl stat. HP has 15mm output pipes, immediately changing to 22mm plastic inside. HP's air temp was too cold in winter, so I increased rad sizes. Air's a bit warmer but surface temps a bit lower.... at 0degs the boats about 12-14 degs....guess I've exhausted the HP's output. So manually switch to LPG boiler sub 5degs. Now considering Thermodynamic panel to heat 210ltr Mega flow (for a laugh I will rig up an old radiator, painted black, encased and pumped to see what's what). Have a natty little device that replaces immersion heater with something similar looking, but has pipes instead of elec element, as a second/solar coil. Also considering 2kw of solar panels on flat roof to get feed in tariff etc.
Which bits of this would you keep....which bits replace/add? Also (as I can't have any more underfloor without heating the river

, is it worth binning the rad system and having a series of split air con units (pipe runs are tricky) even though I never need air con to cool (its water cooled by the river)
Many thanks.
Alan
PS can DIY

Condenser · 09-05-2013 10:36AM

Runrep wrote: »

OMG, Ive been reading this for 40mins and the best stuff is in the last few posts! (Particular thanks to Shane007 and Condenser)

Hi Condenser, (and everyone else) you obviously know your stuff and if I lived in Ireland, your phone would be ringing for an appt. As Im in London, I wondered if you'd be good enough to comment on any of the following 'challenging' project:
I have an 8 yr old 6kw Activair air/water heat pump (totally reliable so never spent a penny on mechanicals) plus an LPG HE boiler. (Id love to get rid of LPG as slepping 19kilo bottles on board is a pain!) Thinking to rejig/tweak/upgrade/replace/swap/rethink the whole systems and would value your thoughts. It feeds 8 radiators and 2sqM underfloor (I live on a v well insulated, d/glazed, 100 sq M (1.9m head height) static houseboat, 240v, 64 amp supply with mains water). Im told shallow, fast running, part salt, tidal River Thames is generally colder than the air, so water source system idea abandoned. The existing system feeds an S plan wet system with room stat, (pointless) TRV's and cyl stat. HP has 15mm output pipes, immediately changing to 22mm plastic inside. HP's air temp was too cold in winter, so I increased rad sizes. Air's a bit warmer but surface temps a bit lower.... at 0degs the boats about 12-14 degs....guess I've exhausted the HP's output. So manually switch to LPG boiler sub 5degs. Now considering Thermodynamic panel to heat 210ltr Mega flow (for a laugh I will rig up an old radiator, painted black, encased and pumped to see what's what). Have a natty little device that replaces immersion heater with something similar looking, but has pipes instead of elec element, as a second/solar coil. Also considering 2kw of solar panels on flat roof to get feed in tariff etc.
Which bits of this would you keep....which bits replace/add? Also (as I can't have any more underfloor without heating the river , is it worth binning the rad system and having a series of split air con units (pipe runs are tricky) even though I never need air con to cool (its water cooled by the river)
Many thanks.
Alan
PS can DIY

Change your rads for fan assited rads like Jaga DB's or Dimplex smartrads and you'll double your output from the HP. Fairly simple fix. Ideally you should have a buffer but unlikely to have the space on a house boat.

Runrep · 09-05-2013 01:16PM

Thanks C
Interestingly (?) Ive just ordered a fan unit that sits atop the length of the rad (£20) as a test. So I'll run the heating in a closed room with and without and measure air temp (trv detatched) before and after. I assume that a tailor made unit holds less water too plus n fins....but this will be a decent test before lashing out.
Im not sure exactly what a buffer is. I assume it's a bit like a heat store with the rad pipework picking up heat indirectly. Right? If so, where's the advantage in that arrangement?

A
ps Ive got loads of spare space

Condenser · 09-05-2013 10:42PM

Runrep wrote: »

Thanks C
Interestingly (?) Ive just ordered a fan unit that sits atop the length of the rad (£20) as a test. So I'll run the heating in a closed room with and without and measure air temp (trv detatched) before and after. I assume that a tailor made unit holds less water too plus n fins....but this will be a decent test before lashing out.
Im not sure exactly what a buffer is. I assume it's a bit like a heat store with the rad pipework picking up heat indirectly. Right? If so, where's the advantage in that arrangement?

A
ps Ive got loads of spare space

Yes a buffer is a thermal store, basicly a tank of water. It allows the unit to have the required flow it needs at all times which is important for an A2W unit for defrosting and also performance. You should have about 30L of storage per kw.
A purpose built fan coil will throw out way more heat than a standard rad with a fan on top due to the larger surface area due to its fin coil construction.

Curly_Wurly · 14-05-2013 11:10AM

We ended up getting this heating system - the thermodynamic system. Although we have constant hot water we have noticed a considerable increase on our Electricity bill every 2 months...I don't know what the kw usage is to hand but roughly speaking, our bill used to be around €200 every 2 months. Now it's a whopping €350-€400 each month. My husband rang the guy who installed it (LVP Renewables) and he didn't know. But as someone else was saying

maradonas wrote: »

Hi OP just wondering is the l v solar panels really a better job than tubes etc. myself.

I think its back up fuel is an immersion so the electricity bill will be big enough if you have alot of need for hot water per person.

mmmm baths!!

it seems to be using the immersion as it's backup which i'm worried about as that's a major increase. Anybody know if this can be rectified?

Thanks again,
Curly W

freddyuk · 14-05-2013 11:25AM

I understood the immersion was there as a "manual" backup switch so should not be coming on except to activate anti legionella system and be used if you run out of hot water. If it is constantly "on" then if there insufficient hot water it will use the immersion to top up the heating rate hence your massive bills.
Switch off the immersion and see if it can supply sufficient hot water (should be easy in summer!)

Tommyboy08 · 14-05-2013 01:09PM

freddyuk wrote: »

I understood the immersion was there as a "manual" backup switch so should not be coming on except to activate anti legionella system and be used if you run out of hot water. If it is constantly "on" then if there insufficient hot water it will use the immersion to top up the heating rate hence your massive bills.
Switch off the immersion and see if it can supply sufficient hot water (should be easy in summer!)

How long have you had the panels?
if you have had them for a while has that increase has only started to happen lately?
Try what freddy said first and if still no change its likely you have a refrigeration problem and that's why your immersion is constantly running

Curly_Wurly · 14-05-2013 01:28PM

Hi Freddy, thanks for that. Will say this to the husband and see what he thinks!

braka · 23-05-2013 09:27AM

Attached is the latest data for the system.
As everyone knows the weather has been very cold all through March and April and now May isn't much better.
No complaints from any of the family so far and happy with the ESB bill.

Curious Geroge · 23-05-2013 11:09AM

On a new build with Air2Water heat pump, would Thermodynamic solar panels be overkill (or even required)?

MOTM · 27-05-2013 05:59AM

Curious Geroge wrote: »

On a new build with Air2Water heat pump, would Thermodynamic solar panels be overkill (or even required)?

Yes. The LVP system more or less an A/W heat pump with minimal extra heat from the small unglazed solar collector. Check with your BER assessor if you're meeting the DoE renewables requirement with the current A/W.

steve82 · 29-05-2013 08:30AM

Curly_Wurly wrote: »

We ended up getting this heating system - the thermodynamic system. Although we have constant hot water we have noticed a considerable increase on our Electricity bill every 2 months...I don't know what the kw usage is to hand but roughly speaking, our bill used to be around €200 every 2 months. Now it's a whopping €350-€400 each month. My husband rang the guy who installed it (LVP Renewables) and he didn't know. But as someone else was saying

it seems to be using the immersion as it's backup which i'm worried about as that's a major increase. Anybody know if this can be rectified?

Thanks again,
Curly W

Hey Curly W,
I'm just researching these Thermodynamic solar panels myself and i cant satisfy myself that they are a wise idea from a financial perspective.
The compressor on them is 590w and manufacturer says that they run for 6 hours per day on average.
Simple maths comes up with the following:
0.59(kw) x 6(hrs) = 3.54(kwhr)
That means these thermodynamic "solar panels" consume the same electricity as a 2.5kw immersion left on for 1.42 hours (3.54/2.5)
If we all left our immersion switched on for 1.42 hours per day, of course we would have plenty of hot water.
Maybe i'm making a mistake with my calculation method but i don't think i am

I just phoned one of the main TD solar companies to verify the running times and compressor motor powers.

I want to buy one, but my wallet thinks a real solar panel is a smarter investment as all the hot water is genuinely free of running costs.

MOTM · 29-05-2013 09:16AM

steve82 wrote: »

I want to buy one, but my wallet thinks a real solar panel is a smarter investment as all the hot water is genuinely free of running costs.

I've an earlier post on this. The thermodynamic panel does not stack up when you do the maths.
Bear in mind that only abour 50-60% of the hot water is free of running costs for the conventional solar thermal collector system rather than all of it as you've said here. Also, there is a small pump to circulate the glycol through the collectors.

Curly_Wurly · 29-05-2013 10:50AM

I havn't had the time to look into how well my thermodynamic system is performing with KW usage, etc and payback €€ wise on how much it cost to install plus extra cost of paying for the hot water with immersion costs. Honestly, right now, I would advise against getting this and it sounds like you've made your mind up already

. I think ours cost €4500... My husband would disagree :mad: but just looking at the bill every 2 months tells me it was a bad investment. I know the solar panels won't give scalding hot water 24x7 but they are pretty much self sufficient and run by themselves.

braka · 29-05-2013 04:25PM

Curly_Wurly wrote: »

I havn't had the time to look into how well my thermodynamic system is performing with KW usage, etc and payback €€ wise on how much it cost to install plus extra cost of paying for the hot water with immersion costs. Honestly, right now, I would advise against getting this and it sounds like you've made your mind up already . I think ours cost €4500... My husband would disagree :mad: but just looking at the bill every 2 months tells me it was a bad investment. I know the solar panels won't give scalding hot water 24x7 but they are pretty much self sufficient and run by themselves.

Hi Curly_Wurly, I don't blame you for feeling browned off having got bills of the amounts you speak about...I would certainly feel the same...however it looks to me (and I'm not an expert on refrigeration, Thermodynamics, Solar Power or anything in this area really) that your ESB bill should not be high because of the energie system!

As you can see from my previous posts, I have been keeping a close eye on how my system is running (taking daily readings from a power monitor which has the Thermodynamic system plugged into it.

I am using less that 3 units of electricity per day at present....in the depths of winter it was closer to 4 on average.... at approx 16-18 cent/unit (depending on supplier)the cost is 50-70cent per day.
On a 2 monthly bill that works out at most around €40.

(In a few weeks time I will have 52 weeks of data and will be able to say exactly how much it cost)

Your bill has gone from €200 for 2 months (i.e.100/month), to €350-400/month!!!
It shouldn't be...The maths don't add up in my calculations..

An extra €250 -€300 / month is being used...that approximates to 1500-1800 units extra use / month (using 6 units /euro as a rough estimate).......

That means each day you are using between 50-60 units extra....!!
That would equate to having a 2.4 kW immersion on 24 hrs/day ..........which couldn't be happening.

I don't have an immersion....tons of hot water from the system....and I never bothered with putting on the immersion button on the system .... constant use of hot water has ensured we never needed to as yet...

Its heated to 55 deg. so the legionaire issue shouldnt arise especially with constant use ...I know if we happen to be not around for a few days and come back we should put on the immersion button (its 1.2kW and only runs for 6 hrs so I cannot see where it would use all those units you are being charged for).

I would advise you get a cheap plug in energy monitor from an electrical shop/hardware store and see for yourself what you are using per day.
Thats the only way you will know for sure.

Feel free to PM me directly if you need any more help/info or through this forum if you like.
Forking out that amount has got to be investigated and I for one would love to know whats causing your huge bills.

Best Regards.

shane0007 · 29-05-2013 10:54PM

Hi Braka,
What way are you timing your hot water, continuous hot water to maintain 55C or set to reach 55C at given times during the day period?

braka · 29-05-2013 11:47PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Hi Braka,
What way are you timing your hot water, continuous hot water to maintain 55C or set to reach 55C at given times during the day period?

Hi Shane, ..There is no timer involved.... I understand the water in the cylinder is kept at 55 deg all day/night.
Its set at 55 deg and you can hear the compressor cutting in from time to time.

BTW Thanks for all your contributions on the whole area of heating / new technologies and boilers etc. ...certainly very educational and very easily understood.

shane0007 · 30-05-2013 05:01PM

Thanks for the comments.

The reason I ask is I am about to install in my own hiuse the Ariston NUOS, which is similar to yours but different if you what I mean.
I have been following your posts with great interest & appreciation. The NUOS has a different system in that you tell what times you want hot water & what temperature you require is at. It turns itself on & off to achieve the temperature for that time zone.
I already have solar so I am putting the solar into the NUOS. If the solar does not perform, the NUOS will kick in. I am removing the oil completely from the equation. I will then re-use the 300 stainless steel cylinder as a buffer tank for the UFH that will only be heated by the oil.
Definitely I will put an energy monitoring system to analyise.

Thanks again.

braka · 31-05-2013 06:58PM

shane0007 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments.

The reason I ask is I am about to install in my own hiuse the Ariston NUOS, which is similar to yours but different if you what I mean.
I have been following your posts with great interest & appreciation. The NUOS has a different system in that you tell what times you want hot water & what temperature you require is at. It turns itself on & off to achieve the temperature for that time zone.
I already have solar so I am putting the solar into the NUOS. If the solar does not perform, the NUOS will kick in. I am removing the oil completely from the equation. I will then re-use the 300 stainless steel cylinder as a buffer tank for the UFH that will only be heated by the oil.
Definitely I will put an energy monitoring system to analyise.

Thanks again.

Hi Shane, this NUOS looks to me to be a very good setup (.... I looked up the Ariston info and it appears to have a lot of flexibility).
I can see where it can compliment an existing solar panel so it will be very interesting to see your monitored figures.

At the recent SEAI show in the RDS I took a particular interest in these types of haet pump types ...and they all appear to have similar attributes....unfortunately not one of the people on the stands could tell me the expected electricity running costs!

Redwing Engineering had a Hotfoot Eurosaver heat pump (claiming a COP of "3 or 4") and also the "Ice Stick" system which is a hybrid geothermal system and which has won awards.... pity there was no info on the electricity use!

Your info on the UFH / Solar ( Thanks also to Condenser ) is very enlightening...certainly if I was building again I would be looking at a different setup to what I have at the moment but obviously UFH is not an option on 1980 built houses. "Buffer Tanks" were unheard of back them...well at least I never heard of them.

I would expect the technologies will develop even further in the next few years and give people better choice that even at present, but I cannot understand why the Companies producing these units won't give factual info regarding their running costs??

..What has happened in Curly Wurlys case should have had an agent at their location quickly with an energy monitor and prove where the electricity was being used..... perhaps there's a job in there for someone?

Tommyboy08 · 31-05-2013 08:07PM

braka wrote: »

Redwing Engineering had a Hotfoot Eurosaver heat pump (claiming a COP of "3 or 4") and also the "Ice Stick" system which is a hybrid geothermal system and which has won awards.... pity there was no info on the electricity use!

Well the hotfoot and indeed all of these hot water only heat pumps can have a cop of 3 or 4 on hot water production, (well not sure about 4 though) as they are using the warm air from your house as their energy source! But what's going to replace this energy into your house as it has to come from somewhere? Oil or gas most likely, so what's the actual cop if oil is your real energy source??????

I was at the RDS for that energy show and saw the "award winning" ice stick
It actually had figures for running costs on the leaflet, quick few calculations on the phone gave it a cop of about 2 as one would expect as its just an air to water heat pump with no fan!!!!!
The figures were about 14000 kw hrs of heat delivered to a house for €1000 running costs, so being generous and saying it was all day rate then it works out to a cop of 2, its a joke of a system

shane0007 · 31-05-2013 09:05PM

I think figures on manufacturer brochures can only be taken as broad guidelines as too many unforeseens have to be known. It's like saying an oil boiler will only use €x per year to use. It would depend on too many factors.
With domestic hot water air to water heat pumps (or similar) can possibly give a bit more accuracy in that the running costs will be based upon fewer dependables, such as building heat losses, wider parameters, varying sizes of homes, etc.
It only has to deal with a given volume of water to heat (I understand this volume can vary depending on usage but if sized initally before installing, it should be averagely accurate), factory conditioned cylinder, less risks of installer error/variables.
The only real variable is air temperature that will affect the performance, but this can be within reason be averaged. The power consumption & costs for running times can be monitored with absolute accuracy & costed accordingly.

What I like about Braka's is that the figures are real & from a real life situation that probably mimics many's lives. Averaging €4 per week for DHW is excellent. In addition, the figures don't account for the saving from the oil/gas being directed solely for heating purposes. The heating system will react quicker with DHW removed, it will be hotter so thermostats will shut down earlier.

For me, they have a very valid place in the market place. Not to take over the market place, but they have earned their right to be there. Each technology has its own issues so I suppose it's about creating an acceptance for each & therefore a more open mind.

shane0007 · 05-06-2013 09:45PM

Hi Braka,
Just a few questions:
1. What size cylinder do you have installed?
2. What is the given COP of your system?
3. What is the kw consumption of the heat pump?
4. How has the system performed/consumed during this good weather?

Much appreciated,
Shane

LVP Thermodynamic solar Panels

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