Paid Holidays or Genuine Charity?

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 10:16AM

desertcircus wrote: »

I understand that things like this exist because they raise funds effectively, but it still leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouth. If someone is going over to do work that doesn't require specialist skills, it seems both extremely wasteful and shortsighted not to simply raise funds to hire a local to do the work on a permanent basis. I think someone mentioned a figure of three thousand euro - in a lot of countries, that'd be enough to hire someone for a year. Aside from the benefit of the job being done year-round, you'd be providing employment as well. Instead, unemployed locals have to watch wealthy white people come in to do the work instead, and spend a chunk of that money at tourist locations instead of in the village or town.

The other problem I have - and it's a big one - is that sending well-meaning white people to do charity work in largely nonwhite countries strikes me as an extremely unfortunate echo of colonialism at best and unwitting racism at worst. Africans/Indians/people aren't benighted idiots in need of guidance from white visitors, they need help reforming governance and developing indigenous industry, and education most of all. If you really want to help, raise funds for a school.

you make it sound so so simple. In reality, it's not.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-05-2013 10:16AM

c_man wrote: »

I always have a laugh at some of the people looking for money heading over to"build a school". Im talking people who have never lifted a hammer in their lives. oh wow, you'll be some asset over there! why exactly couldn't donations go through the charity to employ local people to do it? well then nobody would be getting a holiday...

Always amazed at how the locals can fire bricks from the red soil in Africa. Looks like it takes about the same difficulty as to cut and stack turf here.

Add a bag of cement and some corrugated iron for the roof and job done.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 10:18AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

How on earth do you figure that out? I'd say expecting your friends to fund you for something you could pay for yourself if you made some sacrifices is pretty damn selfish. Your attitude is pretty typical of these types of people though. "Why won't you fund me? You're so scabby!" I have very little money. I don't see why I should pay for your trip when half of it is sightseeing and I don't even agree with the 'cause'.

I do hours of charity work every week which benefits people 'overseas'. I don't ask anyone for money to do it.

The way I see it is, if there's more in it for you than there is for the people you're meant to be helping, you can feck off asking for donations.

thats a weird opinion to have izzy. "to hell with the poor people if you happen to learn/get something good out of the experience" .

Differents strokes for different folks I guess.

22-05-2013 10:21AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

thats a weird opinion to have izzy. "to hell with the poor people if you happen to learn/get something good out of the experience" .

Differents strokes for different folks I guess.

That's how you're choosing to read it. That's not what I meant at all. If you can't see the difference between someone with the appropriate skills making a genuine commitment to a cause and someone who fancies a trip spending a couple of weeks volontouring on someone else's dime because they're not willing to save their own money to do it, don't know what to tell ya. Sorry.

mathie · 22-05-2013 10:23AM

keelanj69 wrote: »

Makes me wonder what else people will pay for. If I was honest and said I fancy a weekend away or to get back to university would people cough up?

I'm off to Amsterdam on a sponsored Ho-Bang.

Seachmall · 22-05-2013 10:29AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

Could the money used to send several volunteers not pay a local person's salary to do the same work on a long-term basis?

That would be a much better alternative but would people donate enough to pay wages for any reasonable length of time?

The larger/more traditional charities do attempt to raise money to pay for staff but evidently they don't raise enough. Even away from volunteer work people are extremely cynical of charities (there have been a few threads on AH recently about this very topic).

I'd say sightseeing makes it quite a holiday.

How much sightseeing do you think happens? And how much sightseeing is too much? Does one day looking at mountains render the following month a holiday? Does two days?

If you're going to Africa to help people, no, I do not expect to fund your flights, accommodation and drinks. Why can't you pay for it yourself?

Because it's expensive and not everyone can afford to do it on their own?

People often keep very quiet about how much of the money they're asking for is going directly to a good cause. How can you not take a cynical view of someone who goes abroad for 2 weeks with other people's money and uses one of those weeks for a holiday? Seriously?

I've never come across volunteer workers working for less than a month (usually it's three to six) and I've never seen anyone who spent half their time holidaying.

Because it's something I've chosen to do. Why should my friends pay for it? Why shouldn't I?

Nobody is making your friends pay for it, you're simply asking them.

Why is simply asking someone for assistance such a problem? If they don't want to help fund you for whatever reason they won't.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 10:32AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

That's how you're choosing to read it. That's not what I meant at all. If you can't see the difference between someone with the appropriate skills making a genuine commitment to a cause and someone who fancies a trip spending a couple of weeks volontouring on someone else's dime because they're not willing to save their own money to do it, don't know what to tell ya. Sorry.

sometimes the only skill you need is compassion - something lots of people don't seem to have on this thread.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 10:34AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

That's how you're choosing to read it. That's not what I meant at all. If you can't see the difference between someone with the appropriate skills making a genuine commitment to a cause and someone who fancies a trip spending a couple of weeks volontouring on someone else's dime because they're not willing to save their own money to do it, don't know what to tell ya. Sorry.

and you say to me that I'm choosing to read it wrong- I don't think so. I think it is very clear what is being said/insinuated. Doesn't take a genius.

A bad irish trait - begrudgery.

22-05-2013 10:36AM

Seachmall wrote: »

That would be a much better alternative but would people donate enough to pay wages for any reasonable length of time?

The larger/more traditional charities do attempt to raise money to pay for staff but evidently they don't raise enough. Even away from volunteer work people are extremely cynical of charities (there have been a few threads on AH recently about this very topic).

How much are flights to most places in Africa/South America? Would that money not go quite far once converted into the local currency, taking into account the lower cost of living there?

How much sightseeing do you think happens? And how much sightseeing is too much? Does one day looking at mountains render the following month a holiday? Does two days? Because it's expensive and not everyone can afford to do it on their own?

I've heard of plenty of 'week travelling, week volunteering' schemes. I'd imagine that if you went somewhere for a week or two genuinely wanting to help, you wouldn't have time for sightseeing.

I've never come across volunteer workers working for less than a month (usually it's three to six) and I've never seen anyone who spent half their time holidaying.

I have.

Nobody is making your friends pay for it, you're simply asking them.

Why is simply asking someone for assistance such a problem? If they don't want to help fund you for whatever reason they won't.

It's not just asking, is it? It's guilting you into it. Plenty of people have fishy fishy's attitude and think you're selfish or a scab for not funding their selfless efforts. It actually is quite difficult to say no. I fell out with a friend of ten years a few months back because she implied I was selfish and mean for not donating money for her trip. This is someone who could well afford it herself if she cut back a bit, but no, she'd never spend her OWN money, shock horror. That's for her wedding/car/clothes/daily latte/iPad.

Crooked Jack · 22-05-2013 10:38AM

decisions wrote: »

I'm planning to do a sponsored skydive in a few months, but I'm covering the cost of the jump myself so all funds go to charity. I think it's ridiculous that there is even the option to have the sponsers pay for your jump unless you have raised a significant amount of money.

I tend to be wary of these types of things. I mean, I'd love to do a skydive, there doesn't seem to be any personal sacrifice in it at all.
I'm not saying that that is the point of charity but it does smack of emotionally blackmailing people so you can do something fun.
I mean, you might as well have a sponsored lying in bed and watching dvds morning.
I did a sponsored bungee jump in uni and I freely admit my reasons for doing it were 100% because i wanted to do a bungee jump.
I paid for the actual jump myself but you still couldnt do it unless you raised a certain amount of money so I deliberately picked the most guilt inducing charity I could.
Im sure that the charity appreciated the money I raised but the actual cause in question accounted for 0% of my reasoning for doing it.
I suspect I am far from the only person who has done a charity event with similar motivations.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 10:40AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

How much are flights to most places in Africa/South America? Would that money not go quite far once converted into the local currency, taking into account the lower cost of living there?

I've heard of plenty of 'week travelling, week volunteering' schemes. I'd imagine that if you went somewhere for a week or two genuinely wanting to help, you wouldn't have time for sightseeing.

I have.

It's not just asking, is it? It's guilting you into it. Plenty of people have fishy fishy's attitude and think you're selfish or a scab for not funding their selfless efforts. It actually is quite difficult to say no. I fell out with a friend of ten years a few months back because she implied I was selfish and mean for not donating money for her trip. This is someone who could well afford it herself if she cut back a bit, but no, she'd never spend her OWN money, shock horror. That's for her wedding/car/clothes/daily latte/iPad.

just curious......what do you think of what Croi does - their yearly walks in which volunteers have to come up with thousands. They get a week of loverly scenery and walking and also croi gets some money - volunteers have to ask/organise for donations. Do you agree with this?

Would you be happy to use Croi if you developed a heart condition - or would you not bother because how dare their volunteers ask for donations to do a walk in Spain/France/Portugal and actually enjoy it.

22-05-2013 10:40AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

sometimes the only skill you need is compassion - something lots of people don't seem to have on this thread.

Yeah, I got up at 6 this morning to volunteer at a centre which provides breakfast for poor kids because I don't give a sh1t about people. I'm about to spend the next 8 hours working on an urgent voluntary translation for MSF which will provide English-speaking doctors in Burkina Faso with essential information about vaccines because I'm just sooooo selfish and lacking in compassion.

You just sit back and feel great about yourself there and I'll get on with my day.

Crooked Jack · 22-05-2013 10:49AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

just curious......what do you think of what Croi does - their yearly walks in which volunteers have to come up with thousands. They get a week of loverly scenery and walking and also croi gets some money - volunteers have to ask/organise for donations. Do you agree with this?

Would you be happy to use Croi if you developed a heart condition - or would you not bother because how dare their volunteers ask for donations to do a walk in Spain/France/Portugal and actually enjoy it.

To be honest, this sounds exactly like the type of thing you should be paying for yourself.

hardCopy · 22-05-2013 10:52AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

How much are flights to most places in Africa/South America? Would that money not go quite far once converted into the local currency, taking into account the lower cost of living there?

I've heard of plenty of 'week travelling, week volunteering' schemes. I'd imagine that if you went somewhere for a week or two genuinely wanting to help, you wouldn't have time for sightseeing.

I have.

It's not just asking, is it? It's guilting you into it. Plenty of people have fishy fishy's attitude and think you're selfish or a scab for not funding their selfless efforts. It actually is quite difficult to say no. I fell out with a friend of ten years a few months back because she implied I was selfish and mean for not donating money for her trip. This is someone who could well afford it herself if she cut back a bit, but no, she'd never spend her OWN money, shock horror. That's for her wedding/car/clothes/daily latte/iPad.

If people like your friend didn't pester all around them for money the charity wouldn't have any money to spend on local staff. People just don't give enough spontaneous donations to charity. Sponsored trips are an easy way for charities to get the money in.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 11:00AM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

To be honest, this sounds exactly like the type of thing you should be paying for yourself.

not really answering the question there are you?

desertcircus · 22-05-2013 11:00AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

sometimes the only skill you need is compassion - something lots of people don't seem to have on this thread.

And yet you accused me of oversimplifying. Nobody here is arguing from a view devoid of compassion; they're arguing that voluntourism is a crass and grossly inefficient form of charity. What developing countries need isn't compassion, it's help developing. That means irrigation projects, vaccination drives and education - using local labour wherever possible in order to maximise the multiplier effect.

Crooked Jack · 22-05-2013 11:01AM

hardCopy wrote: »

If people like your friend didn't pester all around them for money the charity wouldn't have any money to spend on local staff. People just don't give enough spontaneous donations to charity. Sponsored trips are an easy way for charities to get the money in.

But he's clearly saying that she was well off enough to fund it herself with a little personal sacrifice. Either way the charity gets the money

Seachmall · 22-05-2013 11:01AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

How much are flights to most places in Africa/South America? Would that money not go quite far once converted into the local currency, taking into account the lower cost of living there?

Money in S.A. does go pretty far, local workers work long hours for a low wage. The problem is getting the money put to good use (as I mentioned before where I worked was rife with corruption, you couldn't trust most of the staff including the owner of the children's home).

If you have someone in the area who can manage the spending of the funds then that would absolutely be the best option, but even the larger charities have trouble making sure their money gets spent appropriately.

I've heard of plenty of 'week travelling, week volunteering' schemes. I'd imagine that if you went somewhere for a week or two genuinely wanting to help, you wouldn't have time for sightseeing.

I have.

It's not just asking, is it? It's guilting you into it. Plenty of people have fishy fishy's attitude and think you're selfish or a scab for not funding their selfless efforts. It actually is quite difficult to say no. I fell out with a friend of ten years a few months back because she implied I was selfish and mean for not donating money for her trip. This is someone who could well afford it herself if she cut back a bit, but no, she'd never spend her OWN money, shock horror. That's for her wedding/car/clothes/daily latte/iPad.

To be honest, I think we're talking about two different types of people here. Clearly we've had different experience with volunteers and what goes on. I can agree that if people are doing these projects they should put the volunteer work first and at least attempt to fund it themselves. If they can't then I think they should ask for support from friends and family, and I don't think there's any shame in doing so.

Crooked Jack · 22-05-2013 11:02AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

not really answering the question there are you?

I answered it completely I think you'll find.

robinph · 22-05-2013 11:03AM

It's a holiday that does nothing but make the westerner doing the trip feel a bit less guilty about being rich.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22294205

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 11:03AM

Brooks Big Script wrote: »

How much are flights to most places in Africa/South America? Would that money not go quite far once converted into the local currency, taking into account the lower cost of living there?

I've heard of plenty of 'week travelling, week volunteering' schemes. I'd imagine that if you went somewhere for a week or two genuinely wanting to help, you wouldn't have time for sightseeing.

I have.

It's not just asking, is it? It's guilting you into it. Plenty of people have fishy fishy's attitude and think you're selfish or a scab for not funding their selfless efforts. It actually is quite difficult to say no. I fell out with a friend of ten years a few months back because she implied I was selfish and mean for not donating money for her trip. This is someone who could well afford it herself if she cut back a bit, but no, she'd never spend her OWN money, shock horror. That's for her wedding/car/clothes/daily latte/iPad.

if people ask you for donation and you refuse I'm sure they will be fine with that - you have the right to refuse. However, I think the "guilt" thing could be your own perception - i.e. you feel guilty for not helping for whatever reason.

if you do spend so much time doing charity work I would think you would understand a little better about overseas charity work. but hey maybe not. I won't keep you from your long day doing your charity work. have fun (if that is allowed)

yellowlabrador · 22-05-2013 11:04AM

Seachmall wrote: »

And then we'd have a thread about chuggers instead of holiday/charity fundraising.

Charities do need people going over. Where I worked seemed somewhat well run (if not entirely corrupt) but a woman I met over there was in an orphanage where she was the sole carer of about 30 children. She'd volunteered there before and the only reason she went back was that she knew the kids aren't looked after. Now that she's reaching her 60s she felt she probably couldn't do it for much longer.

They do need volunteers in these places. And people don't really donate much unless there's a familiar face trying to raise the money.

Shitting on people trying to do something charitable because it's not entirely selfless is also a dick move. Especially if you're doing nothing charitable yourself.

I think these schemes are very questionable. Haven't we learned enough about orphanages in Ireland? Most of those children have families and the cost of those holidays would help a family to raise the children. Not only that, how much vetting is done of the volunteers? Is it good for children to be exposed to a stream of people who come along every few weeks to take them out unsupervised and 'helping'. I think this is an industry, any good charity would aim to stop being 'needed' instead of attracting a stream of money from well meaning volunteers .
I've just had a major fall out with a friend. She'd always dreamed of going to India and is now going to an orphanage for a month. She's not the most stable of people and her own 2 teenagers are in care here in Ireland. I don't doubt her good intentions, but the money would be better spent in the local community. Do we really question the ability of Indian people to raise their own children? Often these children end up in an orphanage because their parents have been promised a free education.

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 11:04AM

desertcircus wrote: »

And yet you accused me of oversimplifying. Nobody here is arguing from a view devoid of compassion; they're arguing that voluntourism is a crass and grossly inefficient form of charity. What developing countries need isn't compassion, it's help developing. That means irrigation projects, vaccination drives and education - using local labour wherever possible in order to maximise the multiplier effect.

they do have charities for that - you do know that don't you?

desertcircus · 22-05-2013 11:13AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

they do have charities for that - you do know that don't you?

No, because I'm an idiot. Of course I know that; I also know that those charities always need funds and could do far more good with 3,000 quid than some dogooding white person going on a three week charity holiday. Did you actually have a point, or were you just trying to score a cheap shot?

fishy fishy · 22-05-2013 11:19AM

desertcircus wrote: »

No, because I'm an idiot. Of course I know that; I also know that those charities always need funds and could do far more good with 3,000 quid than some dogooding white person going on a three week charity holiday. Did you actually have a point, or were you just trying to score a cheap shot?

no, just stating that they have charities to do the kind of work that you said in your last post that they should concentrate on - didn't think you knew that going by your last post. Lots of charity do it- I think some of them are white people - so I don't get your point.

Seachmall · 22-05-2013 11:21AM

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Most of those children have families and the cost of those holidays would help a family to raise the children.

Most of the children I worked with were either the victims of trafficking, had been left in by someone or were found on the street. I only knew of one that had family in the area but I didn't question further than what I was told.

Not only that, how much vetting is done of the volunteers?

I'd say not enough, for me it was simply a Garda vetting. But I'm not sure how you'd do more advanced checks on who's volunteering.

I think this is an industry, any good charity would aim to stop being 'needed' instead of attracting a stream of money from well meaning volunteers .

The charities that tend to do these things focus on the short term needs of the area/project. Stuff liking providing day-to-day care and maintenance (that's what the volunteers are for). I guess they leave it to the bigger charities to try and provide long-term stability.

Grandpa Hassan · 22-05-2013 11:24AM

I wouldn't have so much of a problem if someone came to me and said they were doing this thing for charity (whether an expedition, volunteering etc), and of the, say, €5k that they needed to raise, they were commiting €2.5k themself, with the balance from others. If they feel that strongly about it, they should have some 'skin in the game'.

But in my experience, volunteers expect every cent to be raised by others, with their only committment to the cause being the hardship of a 12 hour flight. Many that have approached me are students clearly looking for a justification for a holiday and some photos to put up on facebook to show how altruistic and adventurous they are.

Mr Benevolent · 22-05-2013 11:24AM

Think I'll start a fundraiser to go to the Canaries for a week.

keelanj69 · 22-05-2013 11:38AM

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Think I'll start a fundraiser to go to the Canaries for a week.

Don't dare try muscle in on my territory! I'm looking forward to my all expenses paid trip around Europe this summer. :P

Crooked Jack · 22-05-2013 11:39AM

Mr Benevolent wrote: »

Think I'll start a fundraiser to go to the Canaries for a week.

I'll throw in a tenner. Don't want you badmouthing me as a cheap scobe to all our friends.

Paid Holidays or Genuine Charity?

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