Fixed Term Contracts

whiteandlight · 18-05-2013 10:18AM #1

Anyone got any idea why there are such a large number of fixed term contracts out there? I thought fixed term was really only for teachers on career breaks or secondment. One school on educationposts has 6 posts under fixed term?

Inspector Coptoor · 18-05-2013 11:11AM

They are becoming the norm in schools.

A teacher's first couple of years will be fixed term so he or she will be easy to get rid if if he/she is a crap teacher.

whiteandlight · 18-05-2013 11:27AM

This is insane. Nobody is going to have job security if this keeps up. At least RPT had some level of continuity. Fixed term contracts should not be permitted unless for a specific reason. All my opinion of course and by the looks of it, wishful thinking

evolving_doors · 18-05-2013 01:07PM

If I'm reading into it correctly, it seems as if that job posting is basically advertising for one or two major subjects and tagging on a load of different ' minor' subjects (permutations and combinations!)..could just be one teacher gone, makes the school look a bit desperate though! Or...a very clever move on the part of the principal? Was that the one in kildare?

Fixed term doesn't really mean jack these days...may as well just say part time and be done with it.

joebloggs32 · 18-05-2013 02:36PM

If the school isn't happy with the teacher after their first year the contract is up and they can just look for someone else.
If they rehire a person on the same conditions for a second year it does give give the teacher some protection, provided the hours remain in place in the school, as they have now created a reasonable expectation for that teacher to receive those hours.

RealJohn · 18-05-2013 02:43PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

This is insane. Nobody is going to have job security if this keeps up. At least RPT had some level of continuity. Fixed term contracts should not be permitted unless for a specific reason. All my opinion of course and by the looks of it, wishful thinking

Oh come on, this is a nothing complaint. Fixed term contracts shouldn't be permitted unless for a specific reason? I would think having an easy way to get rid of an under-performing teacher would be a good enough reason. If the principal is happy with your work, he'll keep you on the same contract next year. If he's not, you're gone. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
This sort of attitude gives all of us a bad name. You're not entitled to a contract next year. You'll get one if you deserve it, provided the school has the hours for you. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Miss Lockhart · 18-05-2013 02:46PM

RealJohn wrote: »

Oh come on, this is a nothing complaint. Fixed term contracts shouldn't be permitted unless for a specific reason? I would think having an easy way to get rid of an under-performing teacher would be a good enough reason. If the principal is happy with your work, he'll keep you on the same contract next year. If he's not, you're gone. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
This sort of attitude gives all of us a bad name. You're not entitled to a contract next year. You'll get one if you deserve it, provided the school has the hours for you. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

So you would be happy enough to be unpaid for the holidays for years in succession? You see no problem with this set up in a professional occupation?

I thought RPT had to be offered if position starts before 1st November and runs for whole year.

joebloggs32 · 18-05-2013 04:20PM

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

So you would be happy enough to be unpaid for the holidays for years in succession? You see no problem with this set up in a professional occupation?

I thought RPT had to be offered if position starts before 1st November and runs for whole year.

You do get paid over the holidays on a fixed term contract.

Miss Lockhart · 18-05-2013 04:24PM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

You do get paid over the holidays on a fixed term contract.

Then what is the difference from RPT?

Any contracts advertised and labelled as "fixed term" which I have had have not paid holidays. They have paid per hour and you got nothing if your class was not available to teach.

Inspector Coptoor · 18-05-2013 04:31PM

The per hour thing there implies you were subbing for someone else?
Maternity leave & such?

Well then, yes, you only get paid an hourly rate as the DES are already paying the other teacher when they are on holidays.

Fixed term contracts are a good thing.

The concept of a "permanent" Job in its old guise is being made redundant & rightly so.

Miss Lockhart · 18-05-2013 04:38PM

No, not subbing. My VEC gives RPT contracts, even for career break and maternity leave, once contract starts before 1st November and runs to end of year. Obviously the fact it is not your own hours is stated in the contract. Contracts that start after that are advertsed as Fixed Term, run only to end of May and don't pay holidays.

This is not a discussion about permanency. RPT contracts have an end date too. The OP's problem seems to be why the school is not offering RPT when it should be.

annadro · 18-05-2013 04:59PM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The per hour thing there implies you were subbing for someone else?
Maternity leave & such?

Well then, yes, you only get paid an hourly rate as the DES are already paying the other teacher when they are on holidays.

Fixed term contracts are a good thing.

The concept of a "permanent" Job in its old guise is being made redundant & rightly so.

What is your position? I take it you are lucky enough a PERMANENT teacher by your statement and not subject to endless of years of being a substitute or part time teacher like some here who are victims of the cutbacks announced in recent budgets who have to spend summer after summer job seeking and facing uncertainty. If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you offer to change your existing contract to one of a FIXED TERM CONTRACT. Please don't go making such absurd statements just because you are permanent. Plenty of excellent teachers will be looking for jobs over the summer due to government cut backs and permanent/cid teachers being redeployed.

annadro · 18-05-2013 05:05PM

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

No, not subbing. My VEC gives RPT contracts, even for career break and maternity leave, once contract starts before 1st November and runs to end of year. Obviously the fact it is not your own hours is stated in the contract. Contracts that start after that are advertsed as Fixed Term, run only to end of May and don't pay holidays.

This is not a discussion about permanency. RPT contracts have an end date too. The OP's problem seems to be why the school is not offering RPT when it should be.

I think fixed term contracts cover maternity leave positions.
I think they are also used in some PRIVATE schools whereby some teachers in these schools are paid by the school for their teaching but not paid holiday pay. Other teachers in such schools are paid by the department.

whiteandlight · 18-05-2013 05:39PM

Well that escalated quickly.

Excuse me RealJohn my attitude gives teaching a bad name? You must be joking. You really need to watch your tone-that post is downright rude to me. Particularly when I had clearly stated it was my opinion and not the profession as a whole. I have been rehired for next year-nothing to do with me being "entitled to a contract" as you so rudely put it, I worked my ass off for it just like most other part time teachers. I was on education posts more for curiosity and to keep an eye out for permanent contracts.

The issue I have with fixed term contracts is nothing to do with underperforming teachers. As far as I'm aware fixed term contracts cannot count towards a CID even if the person is hired back the following year as fixed term contracts tend to have a objective clause saying that.

Now maybe I'm wrong, in which case I've no problem accepting it but still no reason for your tone.

RealJohn · 18-05-2013 06:35PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Well that escalated quickly.

Excuse me RealJohn my attitude gives teaching a bad name? You must be joking. You really need to watch your tone-that post is downright rude to me. Particularly when I had clearly stated it was my opinion and not the profession as a whole. I have been rehired for next year-nothing to do with me being "entitled to a contract" as you so rudely put it, I worked my ass off for it just like most other part time teachers. I was on education posts more for curiosity and to keep an eye out for permanent contracts.

The issue I have with fixed term contracts is nothing to do with underperforming teachers. As far as I'm aware fixed term contracts cannot count towards a CID even if the person is hired back the following year as fixed term contracts tend to have a objective clause saying that.

Now maybe I'm wrong, in which case I've no problem accepting it but still no reason for your tone.

I'm no more impressed with your tone than you are with mine. "You really need to watch your tone" sounds like a threat when it comes from a moderator. My post was not rude, it was to the point. You've just stated you don't actually know whether or not a fixed term contract counts towards a CID (and as far as I'm aware, it does provided you get the same contract in successive years) and yet you make out that they're extremely unfair. Every contract I was on before I was made perminent was fixed term (and I've never not been paid for the summer Miss Lockhart) so as with all other contracts, how good it is for you depends on the terms of your specific contract.

Now if there's such a thing as a fixed term contract that runs from the start of the school year to the end and cuts off for the summer, that shouldn't be allowed but I'm not referring to contracts in which another teacher's hours are being covered here except in the case of a year long (or longer) career break. Covering maternity leave is essentially subbing and shouldn't bring any right to summer pay.

And to the poster who attacked Inspecter Cooptor because he's perminent and therefore not in tune with those who are not, as far as I know, he's not perminent (or if he is, it's a recent development) so you might want to take back one or two of the things you've said.

whiteandlight · 18-05-2013 06:44PM

Would you prefer I didn't reply at all and only post as a moderator? I didn't post in bold, if I had then perhaps my being a moderator is relevant.

You have your opinion and I have mine. As I stated in the original post, it is my opinion that fixed term contracts are not of any benefit to teachers when they are not used for a specific purpose. Teachers can be let go from RPTs so I don't believe there is any reason for them to be used in place of RPTs. You are welcome to disagree. My only issue was with the tone of your response. I'm not getting into further discussion on this.

Have a good weekend.

RealJohn · 18-05-2013 06:54PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Would you prefer I didn't reply at all and only post as a moderator? I didn't post in bold, if I had then perhaps my being a moderator is relevant.

I wouldn't have had any issue with you if you'd just said that you found my tone rude (though I'd still disagree) but by your saying that I should watch my tone, it sounds like a threat, which from an ordinary poster would just sound like keyboard warrior bravado but from a moderator, bold text or not, it has a little more weight and that's what I took issue with. Maybe you should watch how you post in future so that misunderstandings like that don't happen.

You're quite right that we should leave it at that though. We don't want to drag this any further off topic.

Inspector Coptoor · 18-05-2013 08:19PM

annadro wrote: »

What is your position? I take it you are lucky enough a PERMANENT teacher by your statement and not subject to endless of years of being a substitute or part time teacher like some here who are victims of the cutbacks announced in recent budgets who have to spend summer after summer job seeking and facing uncertainty. If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you offer to change your existing contract to one of a FIXED TERM CONTRACT. Please don't go making such absurd statements just because you are permanent. Plenty of excellent teachers will be looking for jobs over the summer due to government cut backs and permanent/cid teachers being redeployed.

I'm not permanent.
Nowhere near it.

I've been working as a sub & on 1 year contracts since 2007

I'm now in the position where maybe there's light at the end of the tunnel but I'm still 2 years away from security.

highly1111 · 18-05-2013 08:44PM

Surely a fixed term contract is offered when they don't know the duration of the career break??

If this is the school in Kildare then I know that one of these jobs is for career break and therefore how they could offer RPT (this job would be full time hours) when it could only be for a year?? The teacher is under no obligation to tell them how long he/she is on career break for? It could be 1 year - it could be 3/4/5/???

(now, I'm not a contract expert but that is what I'm assuming! - I'm open to correction!)

sitstill · 18-05-2013 09:37PM

Not sure about that. I replaced a teacher who was on a career break before and I got a RPT contract which included summer pay etc but the contract stated it was only for the 12 months.

highly1111 wrote: »

Surely a fixed term contract is offered when they don't know the duration of the career break??

If this is the school in Kildare then I know that one of these jobs is for career break and therefore how they could offer RPT (this job would be full time hours) when it could only be for a year?? The teacher is under no obligation to tell them how long he/she is on career break for? It could be 1 year - it could be 3/4/5/???

(now, I'm not a contract expert but that is what I'm assuming! - I'm open to correction!)

highly1111 · 18-05-2013 10:07PM

sitstill wrote: »

Not sure about that. I replaced a teacher who was on a career break before and I got a RPT contract which included summer pay etc but the contract stated it was only for the 12 months.

And I did the same and got a fixed term contract!! So much for consistency - unless it's affected by the number of hours??? I'm really not sure.

joebloggs32 · 19-05-2013 04:20AM

I worked up to my cid on fixed term contracts so they can count. I guess it all counts on what it is for.
With regard to not being paid over the summer, is it then not the case that you get paid holiday pay as part of your hourly rate when working maternity leave etc. This is the way I was paid for my first few years in the 00's. i know it is not the same as having a wage all year round, but it is still money in your pocket.

annadro · 19-05-2013 08:34AM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I worked up to my cid on fixed term contracts so they can count. I guess it all counts on what it is for.
With regard to not being paid over the summer, is it then not the case that you get paid holiday pay as part of your hourly rate when working maternity leave etc. This is the way I was paid for my first few years in the 00's. i know it is not the same as having a wage all year round, but it is still money in your pocket.

Absolutely, you get paid your holiday pay during the year in advance. A HUGE problem exists in relation to PRSI credits. Obviously you cannont claim jobseekers benefit during the holidays because your holiday pay covers these BUT you cannot sign on with social welfare either for PRSI credits for this period. The department of education don't give such teachers ANY PRSI credits for the holiday period their holiday pay covers.

This is extremely inequitable and another discrimination against substitute/fixed term teachers. Surely if the department of education is paying such teachers holiday pay (therby they are prevented from claiming job seekers from social welfare or from even just claiming PRSI credits from social welfare) then the the department of education should give such teachers PAID PRSI credits for the weeks of the holiday period that their holiday pay covers.

It is very inequitable and unfair to such teachers. They might need those credits in years to come.

annadro · 19-05-2013 09:07AM

I think that some schools advertise for positions which are to only cover one year (such as career breaks) in error as fixed term contracts - a set period of time one year - when really they should be advertised as a PRPT position - provided it is a goverment paid position.
Positions such as maternity leaves where the time period is set and known are fixed term contracts (although these may be extended by parental leave etc)
Some PRIVATE SCHOOLS pay some teachers privately and such teachers may be paid as FIXED TERM teachers whereby they are paid for the weeks they work only. I do not know if they get holiday pay built into their pay like department paid teachers.
Employers should be legally advertising positions correctly. It is very confusing for job seekers trying to decipher what type of position is being offered. Surely educated principals should be able to do this. As far as I am aware the type of position (PRPT, FIXED TERM, FIXED TERM - PAID PRIVATELY, etc, etc has to be stated clearly on the advertisement - is this correct? This does not happen in a lot of cases.

joebloggs32 · 19-05-2013 10:02AM

Private schools would also have to pay the holiday pay in the hourly rate as it is part of employment legislation that all workers receive it. I don't know off hand, but it would be a % on top of your standard rate.

Moody_mona · 19-05-2013 10:24AM

I'm covering a career break. It is a fixed term temporary contract because she is only being granted one year at a time. It won't count towards CID because if she stays out for another three years, meaning I've been there for five and granted a CID, and she comes back that means there are two teachers but not double the hours. I completely understand why my position is not eligible for CID. My fixed term contract is great for starting out and getting experience under my belt, but I won't get any get any security from it.

annadro · 19-05-2013 10:29AM

Moody_mona wrote: »

I'm covering a career break. It is a fixed term temporary contract because she is only being granted one year at a time. It won't count towards CID because if she stays out for another three years, meaning I've been there for five and granted a CID, and she comes back that means there are two teachers but not double the hours. I completely understand why my position is not eligible for CID. My fixed term contract is great for starting out and getting experience under my belt, but I won't get any get any security from it.

I was not talking about eligibility for cid purposes. Technically speaking your contract is a PRPT contract for one year which is different to a fixed term contract such as a maternity leave contract whereby you get your holiday pay paid in advance and are thus ineligible for any sort of PRSI credits for the period your holiday pay covers.

annadro · 19-05-2013 10:35AM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Private schools would also have to pay the holiday pay in the hourly rate as it is part of employment legislation that all workers receive it. I don't know off hand, but it would be a % on top of your standard rate.

Thanks for that information. I wasn't sure about that. That is good so. I wonder if their holiday pay also includes PRSI credits for the holiday period that their holiday pay covers? (I assume they would be ineligible for job seekers similar to state paid fixed term teachers e.g. covering a maternity leave contract - and also ineligible to sign on for just PRSI credits with social welfare for the weeks of the holidays their holiday pay covers)

Do you know are privately paid teachers paid the same rates as their DES colleagues?

evolving_doors · 19-05-2013 11:05AM

annadro wrote: »

Do you know are privately paid teachers paid the same rates as their DES colleagues?

Dont get your hopes up just yet, it depends on the school...Up until 2010 all teachers/workers doing the same job HAD to receive equal pay and conditions. However, a numpty judge rode roughshod over the act in 2010 and basically told a privately paid teacher in court that whatever arrangement he had was between himself and the school and thus the school could do as they pleased...even though the law is quite clear in terms of equal work/equal pay...

So it all comes down to youre contract...in mine it said that remuneration would be in line with the department of education so I was relatively safe...read the contract first..people often think privately paid teachers in fee charging schools are the shnizz but in fact the cleaner has more stability and rights than them..

Be very wary as regards pensions too as you won't be entitled to subscribe to the DOEd one either!

In saying all that I got a CID after 4 years on Fixed Term contract, your best bet is to get the unions to clarify it first..

Inspector Coptoor · 19-05-2013 11:24AM

I'm privately paid by my school & I'm getting the same rate as anyone in the DES.

The only difference is i get paid monthly instead of fortnightly.

I have the option to pay into a pension also, but it's not the DES one

annadro · 19-05-2013 11:41AM

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I'm privately paid by my school & I'm getting the same rate as anyone in the DES.

The only difference is i get paid monthly instead of fortnightly.

I have the option to pay into a pension also, but it's not the DES one

Thanks for that information. Apologies for my earlier accusation. I just couldn't understand why someone would advocate for worsening conditions for teachers. It's so tough already with budget cutbacks and redeployments to get any sort of security to be able to plan for future events such as weddings or buying a house. The uncertainty experienced teachers are facing every summer due to cuts is very stressful.

Just wondering if you have a PRPT contract (i.e. paid for the holidays as they occur (which would include PAID PRSI contributions) or if you have a fixed term contract (which even though includes holiday pay, does not include PAID PRSI contributions for the holiday period - if paid by the DES, I do not know if fixed term teachers paid holiday pay in advance are paid PRSI contributions by the school for the weeks of their holiday pay?)

If that is too personal a question please don't answer it. It probably varies from private school to private school.

Fixed Term Contracts

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