Fixed Term Contracts

annadro

Armelodie wrote: »

Dont get your hopes up just yet, it depends on the school...Up until 2010 all teachers/workers doing the same job HAD to receive equal pay and conditions. However, a numpty judge rode roughshod over the act in 2010 and basically told a privately paid teacher in court that whatever arrangement he had was between himself and the school and thus the school could do as they pleased...even though the law is quite clear in terms of equal work/equal pay...

So it all comes down to youre contract...in mine it said that remuneration would be in line with the department of education so I was relatively safe...read the contract first..people often think privately paid teachers in fee charging schools are the shnizz but in fact the cleaner has more stability and rights than them..

Be very wary as regards pensions too as you won't be entitled to subscribe to the DOEd one either!

In saying all that I got a CID after 4 years on Fixed Term contract, your best bet is to get the unions to clarify it first..

Thanks for that information. I am currently covering a DES paid maternity leave contract but will have to look at all options for next year. That's a disadvantage about the pension. I wonder do privately paid teachers have to follow the 26 rule too regarding pensions? See casual maternity leave thread - (If you are out on maternity leave - casual sub - for 26 weeks or more then you are classified as a new entrant for pension purposes). Someone has written to Rory Quinn about this discrimination.

Suppose a DES paid teacher with a few years of experience workingfor the DES obtains a privately paid fixed term contract for more than 26 weeks with a private school. Are they automatically classified as new entrants for pension purposes if they get a DES paid job the following year?

Also would their year being paid privately in a private school count for increment purposes the following year if get a DES paid job? It only seems right and fair that it would be counted.

Inspector Coptoor

I have all the entitlements I'm due.
All PRSI contributions etc.
I'm availing of tax saver scheme on bus tickets & can get a bike on the cycle to work scheme.

Hopefully in 2 years time I'll have a privately paid CID, the main advantage of which will be no redeployments as there'd be nowhere for me to go.

Eventually when enough teachers retire I'd be hoping to be put on DES payroll

Inspector Coptoor

As for my earlier post, I can see where you are coming from but I really feel we should be getting 3-5 year contracts, face an evaluation, be successful € get another 3-5 year contract.

Job for life mentality can have a very negative affect on people who get it.

I really feel that people like us breaking our backs to impress principals can burn out quite young & that being made permanent can ease that slide into becoming the very kind if teacher I hope to never be, the lazy, 9-3:30, don't do anything for the school kinda teacher.

Does that make any sense?

annadro

That's great Its important one gets their PAID PRSI contributions as they may be needed in years to come.

You sound very efficient and on the ball availing of the bus and bike schemes!

Good luck. I hope you get your CID. Great advantage no redeployments.

I hope your years of experience will count for increment purposes if and when you get a DES position. It only seems right and fair that they would count.

Inspector Coptoor

I've already checked that & they do count.

I've 4 years of DES increments worked up & now 2 in the private sector, if/when I go back to DES rates they will be recognized, just need the proof.

annadro

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

As for my earlier post, I can see where you are coming from but I really feel we should be getting 3-5 year contracts, face an evaluation, be successful € get another 3-5 year contract.

Job for life mentality can have a very negative affect on people who get it.

I really feel that people like us breaking our backs to impress principals can burn out quite young & that being made permanent can ease that slide into becoming the very kind if teacher I hope to never be, the lazy, 9-3:30, don't do anything for the school kinda teacher.

Does that make any sense?

I see what you mean but at the same time how can anyone plan for the future with that sort of uncertaintly. There are very few permanent teachers in any school that I have taught in that are not working extremely hard and doing above and beyond what is expected. That's the way the job has gone. Planning, preparation, differentiation, croake park hours, evaluation, assessment, dealing with discipline, planning and differentiating for special educational needs, large classes, teaching hon's, pass and special educational needs in the one class, i.e. mixed ability teaching, in recent years teaching 5th and 6th years in the one class i.e. teaching 5th and 6th years chemistry - very difficult, extra curricular etc etc

annadro

That's excellent Inspector Cooper and rightly so you should be entitled to them for your experience

Moody_mona

annadro wrote: »

I was not talking about eligibility for cid purposes. Technically speaking your contract is a PRPT contract for one year which is different to a fixed term contract such as a maternity leave contract whereby you get your holiday pay paid in advance and are thus ineligible for any sort of PRSI credits for the period your holiday pay covers.

I wasn't really replying to you annadro, I was just stating my situation. I do not have a prpt contract as I do not have my own hours. I have a September to September fixed term contract. A maternity contract is not fixed term either, it is a substitute position.

rainbowtrout

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

As for my earlier post, I can see where you are coming from but I really feel we should be getting 3-5 year contracts, face an evaluation, be successful € get another 3-5 year contract.

Job for life mentality can have a very negative affect on people who get it.

I really feel that people like us breaking our backs to impress principals can burn out quite young & that being made permanent can ease that slide into becoming the very kind if teacher I hope to never be, the lazy, 9-3:30, don't do anything for the school kinda teacher.

Does that make any sense?

I don't think that's a fair comment. I think people are hardworking or not whatever sector they work in, teaching or otherwise. There are permanent teachers out there who only do the bare minimum and there are others who work their arses off. Same goes for subs, part time staff. I've seen some excellent sub and part time teachers go through my school and the principal has always tried to find hours for the good ones. I've also seen some shocking subs go through the school and wondered why they did the PDE, teacher training degree at all.

annadro

Moody_mona wrote: »

I wasn't really replying to you annadro, I was just stating my situation. I do not have a prpt contract as I do not have my own hours. I have a September to September fixed term contract. A maternity contract is not fixed term either, it is a substitute position.

I assumed we are are all entitled to reply to threads that they do not have to be personaly addressed to us.

Well are you paid for the summer holidays? do you have the same conditions as contracted teachers (except that you are not eligible for a cid)? well if so in that case you have a PRPT fixed term contract for a year.

This is different to a fixed term contract whereby holiday pay is paid in advance. Correction - a maternity leave contract IS A FIXED TERM CONTRACT. The ASTI told me this. One is entitled to all the conditions of PRPT teachers - sick pay etc. It is NOT a substitute position. Even if one does not have a fixed term contract you are actually a fixed term teacher and entitled to all the same benefits as PRPT teachers (except of course you are only paid for the duration of the maternity leave and corresponding holiday pay. Teachers covering a maternity leave are paid a different rate to substitute teachers (It is their annual salary divided by something I am not sure). Regardless I have been told by the ASTI because I am in to cover a set duration maternity leave I am a fixed term teacher. Check it out yourself.

(not that I needed or took sick pay - I am never sick. I got the flu one year but made it in - I don't know how healthy that was and I probably spread all my germs - regardless of whether I would have been paid sick pay or not I did not want to risk my reference).

Moody_mona

But if you're looking covering a maternity leave you're substituting for another teacher who is on paid leave? Surely that's substitute?

annadro

That is what I thought and technically yes you are covering for another teacher but I was informed earlier this year by ASTI that I am a fixed term teacher as I am covering a set period of time. I think this is only fair and equitable. It is not like I am in the school for just a day or two. I have my own classes for the duration of the maternity leave.

Miss Lockhart

I have had RPT contracts when covering career break. There is nothing afaik to say an RPT contract must be your own hours. RPT contracts can contain objective grounds clauses stating why they will not count for CID and career break cover can be stated in this section.

According to the ASTI site RPT contracts should be given if work commences before 1st November and lasts for whole school year. I have received the same information from TUI.

annadro

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair comment. I think people are hardworking or not whatever sector they work in, teaching or otherwise. There are permanent teachers out there who only do the bare minimum and there are others who work their arses off. Same goes for subs, part time staff. I've seen some excellent sub and part time teachers go through my school and the principal has always tried to find hours for the good ones. I've also seen some shocking subs go through the school and wondered why they did the PDE, teacher training degree at all.

Reading this one could assume that any part time or subsitute teachers that were not kept on in the school were "shocking". This is certaintly far from the case especially in recent years. Principals often simply do no have the hours to offer them positions the following year due to budget cutbacks and redeployments. This has certaintly been the case in recent years.

rainbowtrout

annadro wrote: »

Reading this one could assume that any part time or subsitute teachers that were not kept on in the school were "shocking". This is certaintly far from the case especially in recent years. Principals often simply do no have the hours to offer them positions the following year due to budget cutbacks and redeployments. This has certaintly been the case in recent years.

No, not at all. I said that when we had a sub/part time teacher the principal has tried to get them some hours, it isn't always the case, because as you said cutbacks have prevented it. It's still fairly clear to us that are working there who were the poor substitutes and who were the good substitutes that unfortunately couldn't be kept on because there was just no more work for them.

Inspector Coptoor

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair comment. I think people are hardworking or not whatever sector they work in, teaching or otherwise. There are permanent teachers out there who only do the bare minimum and there are others who work their arses off. Same goes for subs, part time staff. I've seen some excellent sub and part time teachers go through my school and the principal has always tried to find hours for the good ones. I've also seen some shocking subs go through the school and wondered why they did the PDE, teacher training degree at all.

I didn't mean it to be fair or otherwise.
I'm simply basing it on my experience.
I've seen teachers put in outrageous work and effort over 4 years (sometimes more) to get a CID/become permanent, and then take a serious step backwards in terms of school involvement and work rate.

teacherhead

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I didn't mean it to be fair or otherwise.
I'm simply basing it on my experience.
I've seen teachers put in outrageous work and effort over 4 years (sometimes more) to get a CID/become permanent, and then take a serious step backwards in terms of school involvement and work rate.

Burnt out perhaps from endless hoop jumping over four years? I have seen people work hard and contribute massively to schools but are kept on 15 or 16 hours for a CID so never have a full time job in spite of their efforts. Why would they keep working so hard outside of their actual job?

I am very involved in sport and other extracurricular activities in school - but its on my terms and when I decide to stop I will. I don't think that people should be strong armed into anything.

annadro

teacherhead wrote: »

Burnt out perhaps from endless hoop jumping over four years? I have seen people work hard and contribute massively to schools but are kept on 15 or 16 hours for a CID so never have a full time job in spite of their efforts. Why would they keep working so hard outside of their actual job?

I am very involved in sport and other extracurricular activities in school - but its on my terms and when I decide to stop I will. I don't think that people should be strong armed into anything.

Yes being offered a CID for under 18 hours is becomming a massive problem alright. Are principals only earning a part time salary themselves?

annadro

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, not at all. I said that when we had a sub/part time teacher the principal has tried to get them some hours, it isn't always the case, because as you said cutbacks have prevented it. It's still fairly clear to us that are working there who were the poor substitutes and who were the good substitutes that unfortunately couldn't be kept on because there was just no more work for them.

That's ok so just that it is tough enough for substiute teachers/ part time teachers who have been let go due to redeployments and government cut backs without having to contend with such statements. Thanks for the clarification.

teacherhead

annadro wrote: »

Yes being offered a CID for under 18 hours is becomming a massive problem alright. Are principals only earning a part time salary themselves?

I assume that's a tongue in cheek question.

Principals are in some cases too cynical to offer a full 22 hour CID when they can as they could have two bodies instead of one to do their bidding.

On the other hand in some cases where hours are uncertain a 17 hour CID could be the most that a principal can offer with any confidence of it being sustainable. Maybe this year there would be 18 hours - next year what? redeploy the teacher if there are excessive hours on their CID.

I'm playing devil's advocate. Every case is different so to generalise can be unfair. I think a lot of principals are doing their best, the real problems are at Department level. I'm not contradicting my earlier post - I don't think there should be a link between extra work and getting a decent contract. If you are a good teacher that should be good enough.

Inspector Coptoor

teacherhead wrote: »

Burnt out perhaps from endless hoop jumping over four years? I have seen people work hard and contribute massively to schools but are kept on 15 or 16 hours for a CID so never have a full time job in spite of their efforts. Why would they keep working so hard outside of their actual job?

I am very involved in sport and other extracurricular activities in school - but its on my terms and when I decide to stop I will. I don't think that people should be strong armed into anything.

I agree with you fully.
Burnout & getting pissed off over years of "proving" yourself over & over is the answer.

What I'm really getting at is the how badly younger teachers are treated in this hours culture.
And I can see your point aswell, no one wants to be strong armed into anything.

I do think the vast majority of teachers want to do co-curricular activities but when a lot of younger male teachers in particular are doing so much coaching (freezing cold evenings and at weekends) & while a lot of other teachers (male & female) put in some hours debating, doing shows etc, there are always the few that do nothing and that just gets my goat

teacherhead

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I agree with you fully.
Burnout & getting pissed off over years of "proving" yourself over & over is the answer.

What I'm really getting at is the how badly younger teachers are treated in this hours culture.
And I can see your point aswell, no one wants to be strong armed into anything.

I do think the vast majority of teachers want to do co-curricular activities but when a lot of younger male teachers in particular are doing so much coaching (freezing cold evenings and at weekends) & while a lot of other teachers (male & female) put in some hours debating, doing shows etc, there are always the few that do nothing and that just gets my goat

And they'll be first to complain! That's life thought not just teaching. It's too short to be caring about them. We have a woman in school who does nothing but criticises

vamos!

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't think that's a fair comment. I think people are hardworking or not whatever sector they work in, teaching or otherwise. There are permanent teachers out there who only do the bare minimum and there are others who work their arses off. Same goes for subs, part time staff. I've seen some excellent sub and part time teachers go through my school and the principal has always tried to find hours for the good ones. I've also seen some shocking subs go through the school and wondered why they did the PDE, teacher training degree at all.

I know that all you meant by this is that there are good and bad everywhere but as a non-secure teacher I think it is so so important that everyone realises that you can jump through every hoop under the sun but if the hours aren't there, nobody can have them. I have covered career breaks and have actually never been lucky enough to be in the same school twice. I have worked hard and have glowing references but my subjects just weren't needed. A (well-meaning but naive) colleague actually asked me straight out why I haven't been kept. She suggested I did a bit of extra curricular. She was shocked when I reeled off my list of activities in my current school and even more shocked to hear I have been doing loads of extra hours in every school. It seems that even fellow teachers don't get that if the hours aren't there in your subject, the world's best teacher can't have them!

annadro

teacherhead wrote: »

And they'll be first to complain! That's life thought not just teaching. It's too short to be caring about them. We have a woman in school who does nothing but criticises everything when she starts at me about something I tell her 'do you know what, you should tell someone who cares'.

She still talks to me, I don't know why. I reckon she knows that she is a serial moaner and that I have her figured out.

Now please don't eat me when I make this statement !!! I am just making a point - Is there any other profession that does endless of extra curricular, extra unpaid work. E.g. what extra work do the gardai, nurses, doctors who are paid for medical card holders etc etc.
Teachers are doing above and beyond the call of duty and it's about time this was realised.

I am just making a point. Of course it helps your relationship with the students in the classroom but it is all extra unpaid work technically.

Given the way the government is moving towards the english system of paper work, I cannot see teachers continuing to do this work as it is and will lead to burnout.

vamos!

annadro wrote: »

Now please don't eat me when I make this statement !!! I am just making a point - Is there any other profession that does endless of extra curricular, extra unpaid work. E.g. what extra work do the gardai, nurses, doctors who are paid for medical card holders etc etc.
Teachers are doing above and beyond the call of duty and it's about time this was realised.

I am just making a point. Of course it helps your relationship with the students in the classroom but it is all extra unpaid work technically.

Given the way the government is moving towards the english system of paper work, I cannot see teachers continuing to do this work as it is and will lead to burnout.

The paperwork will be a killer and I know we may have to withdraw extracurricular as a form of industrial action but if we are being honest, we enjoy our extracurricular. I know you may not feel like going out at lunchtime when it is cold and wet but you are always checking to see what matches can be arranged, competitions can be entered etc. It makes the school day more varied and positive. I would hate to see us having to give that up so we can tick more boxes on expensive photocopied sheets.

Seanchai

On Educationposts.ie here two permanent secondary teaching posts are being advertised in Chanel College in Dublin.

Is that a misprint?

sitstill

Seanchai wrote: »

On Educationposts.ie here two permanent secondary teaching posts are being advertised in Chanel College in Dublin.

Is that a misprint?

I saw this. They may exist but if nobody is redeployed into them, will go to temp members of staff. They still have to advertise and interview outsiders too though.

teacherhead

sitstill wrote: »

I saw this. They may exist but if nobody is redeployed into them, will go to temp members of staff. They still have to advertise and interview outsiders too though.

If there is a pwt position it must be filled through open competition which has been advertised. Schools can still fill pwt posts but have been choosing not to in favour of riding people on small contracts.

CL 34/2009 is worth a read.

evolving_doors

Seanchai wrote: »

On Educationposts.ie here two permanent secondary teaching posts are being advertised in Chanel College in Dublin.

Is that a misprint?

Ok possibilities are..

(A). Job is already spoken for but they have to go through the motions.

(B). It's a misprint.

(C). They have a severe shortage of winter fuel for their incinerator. The postal address is actually to the maintainance lads shed.

(D). They want to advertise nationally to ensure the best possible candidate and are prepared to take copious quantities of caffiene pills over the summer for the expected 50,000 applications.

Hell I may as well throw my own cv into the pot.What's the subjects again..ah who cares..

whiteandlight

English and History? They are actually going to have 50k applicants!