Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

creedp · 15-05-2013 11:57AM

donalg1 wrote: »

The part highlighted above is the reason this 65k figure was chosen I would say as they know that by putting the line here the majority by some margin are under it thereby increasing the chances that it will be accepted.

And if it was reversed in that those above were protected and the majority below were to be given pay cuts then those above would be voting yes, they wouldnt then be too interested in standing together with their colleagues.

In relation to the first point this just shows the so-called objective of saving money under CP2 process is simply a farce and is just a PR excercise to wave at IBEC and the Troika. This will be even more pronounced if the so-called deal is dragged over the line.

In relation the the 2nd point - proof if needed that the PSC is simply an excuse for union executives to maintain the pretence of Partnership - keeping snouts in the trough so to speak - it no longer serves a purpose. I wonder how ICTU can stand over Iaranroad Eireann and Dublin Bus voting to join their Bus Eireann colleagues in strike action given that they are unaffected by the cost cutting plan while the PSC/ICTU are prepared to let certain union members take hits to preserve their colleagues T&C's. Double Standards and hyprocracy alive and well.

creedp · 15-05-2013 12:01PM

sharper wrote: »

On the topic of the value of job security and "waving colleagues out the door"

Job fears at Pfizer's Cork plant as staff called to management meeting

Something workers in the public sector are completely unfamiliar with is the feeling that comes with being invited to a meeting in the morning and not knowing if you'll have a job by lunch time.

Compare and contrast with the long lasting national level discussions around single pay cuts.

What's your solution - voluntary PS servitude? PS wages should be 50% lower than equivalent private wage wage? Or maybe you just simply want to continue the policy of slagging off PS workers

sarumite · 15-05-2013 12:12PM

creedp wrote: »

What's your solution - voluntary PS servitude? PS wages should be 50% lower than equivalent private wage wage? Or maybe you just simply want to continue the policy of slagging off PS workers

I would have said more like 95% lower with weekly public floggings.

:D:rolleyes:

Riskymove · 15-05-2013 12:25PM

sarumite wrote: »

I would have said more like 95% lower with weekly public floggings. :D:rolleyes:

"the floggings will continue until morale improves"!

Dannyboy83 · 15-05-2013 12:35PM

sharper wrote: »

On the topic of the value of job security and "waving colleagues out the door"

Job fears at Pfizer's Cork plant as staff called to management meeting

Those jobs are gone:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/pfizer-to-close-little-island-plant-136-jobs-lost-594455.html

Emigration levels have been high for some time, but I've never seen so many educated people emigrate as what are emigrating at the moment.

i.e. educated people leaving jobs in Ireland, to emigrate.

Tax at 52%, DIRT at 33%, educated people are just not willing to stick around here anymore.

sharper · 15-05-2013 12:41PM

creedp wrote: »

What's your solution - voluntary PS servitude? PS wages should be 50% lower than equivalent private wage wage? Or maybe you just simply want to continue the policy of slagging off PS workers

More empty rhetoric from you.

The discussions here completely devalue job security with many seeming to think losing your job just doesn't matter and anyway those that don't lose their jobs are doing well and unaffected.

Lack of job security has a real impact, like being called to a morning meeting and not knowing what'll happen. Public sector workers don't experience this and don't value it.

Rather than take the point on board and accept that people that disagree with you are genuine in their desire to understand what's going on you instead choose to attack because you find the point inconvenient.

sharper · 15-05-2013 12:45PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Those jobs are gone:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/pfizer-to-close-little-island-plant-136-jobs-lost-594455.html

That's very sad. For these workers there will be no national debate surrounding what they deserve and no discussions around that cuts they can afford to take. Their jobs are simply gone and that's that.

If they retrain and find new jobs at a higher salary in 18 months time some here will insist that's evidence they can pay a higher tax rate because government workers just can't afford a cut.

Joe 90 · 15-05-2013 01:07PM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Those jobs are gone:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/pfizer-to-close-little-island-plant-136-jobs-lost-594455.html

Emigration levels have been high for some time, but I've never seen so many educated people emigrate as what are emigrating at the moment.

i.e. educated people leaving jobs in Ireland, to emigrate.

Tax at 52%, DIRT at 33%, educated people are just not willing to stick around here anymore.

And if enough emigrate who will pay the tax to pay the PS? If enough emigrate so the the MNCs have to pay too much to retain educated workers in Ireland, how long will the MNCs stay in Ireland. That is the real 'race to the bottom'.

creedp · 15-05-2013 01:35PM

sharper wrote: »

Rather than take the point on board and accept that people that disagree with you are genuine in their desire to understand what's going on you instead choose to attack because you find the point inconvenient.

I fully respect the difficulties and worry experienced by people who are in this position and would never attempt to belittle it by using their plight to bolster the petty arguments of some justifying the slashing the wages of another sector of workers. We didn't get to 200 pages plus without a plentiful supply of rhetoric .. of course given your perfect insight of the world rhetoric can only applies on one side here ...

creedp · 15-05-2013 01:36PM

sharper wrote: »

If they retrain and find new jobs at a higher salary in 18 months time some here will insist that's evidence they can pay a higher tax rate because government workers just can't afford a cut.

Surely that fits the rhetoric bill!

sharper · 15-05-2013 02:37PM

creedp wrote: »

I fully respect the difficulties and worry experienced by people who are in this position and would never attempt to belittle it by using their plight to bolster the petty arguments of some justifying the slashing the wages of another sector of workers.

No you're more than happy to ignore their plight completely to bolster salaries which the country simply cannot afford. You want to ignore completely the value of job security so that public sector workers can enjoy it at zero cost to themselves.

Public sector workers never get called to a meeting in the morning and learn their jobs are simply gone.

creedp · 15-05-2013 02:42PM

sharper wrote: »

No you're more than happy to ignore their plight completely to bolster salaries which the country simply cannot afford. You want to ignore completely the value of job security so that public sector workers can enjoy it at zero cost to themselves.

Public sector workers never get called to a meeting in the morning and learn their jobs are simply gone.

Thanks for pointing out what Im happy about .. I'd lost direction there for a while ..

donalg1 · 15-05-2013 03:40PM

sharper wrote: »

No you're more than happy to ignore their plight completely to bolster salaries which the country simply cannot afford. You want to ignore completely the value of job security so that public sector workers can enjoy it at zero cost to themselves.

Public sector workers never get called to a meeting in the morning and learn their jobs are simply gone.

Many Public sector workers chose to work in the public sector because of the job security, the private sector workers you refer to could also have chosen to work in the public sector.

sharper · 15-05-2013 04:42PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Many Public sector workers chose to work in the public sector because of the job security

I agree, that's actually my point. Public sector workers do value the job security unless they're being asked to have their salaries reflect that, at which point suddenly they claim their jobs aren't all that secure after all.

You can choose to work in the public sector in a secure job for a lower salary. Public sector workers want to work in a secure job for the same or better salary as a worker with no job security. That's a problem.

Godge · 15-05-2013 04:47PM

sharper wrote: »

More empty rhetoric from you.

Rather than take the point on board and accept that people that disagree with you are genuine in their desire to understand what's going on you instead choose to attack because you find the point inconvenient.

You cannot be taken seriously on this point that you are genuine in your desire to understand what's going on when you come out with the following rubbish.

sharper wrote: »

.

Compare and contrast with the long lasting national level discussions around single pay cuts.

The current negotiations are about the third pay cut for public servants not just a single one.

sharper · 15-05-2013 04:51PM

Godge wrote: »

The current negotiations are about the third pay cut for public servants not just a single one.

I'm missing the word "digit" from my statement.

Curious that you think a single missing word completely invalidates everything someone has said, however.

Godge · 15-05-2013 04:58PM

sharper wrote: »

That's very sad. For these workers there will be no national debate surrounding what they deserve and no discussions around that cuts they can afford to take. Their jobs are simply gone and that's that.

If they retrain and find new jobs at a higher salary in 18 months time some here will insist that's evidence they can pay a higher tax rate because government workers just can't afford a cut.

Yes, it is sad that people are losing their jobs.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/specialist-skill-set-will-help-workers-find-jobs-26656542.html

http://www.eveningecho.ie/2012/06/06/177-pfizer-jobs-to-go/

Interesting, standard redundancy payments at Pfizer are six weeks plus statutory (eight weeks in total) per year of service. Interesting that some of the people on here feeling sorry for Pfizer workers are the same ones arguing for compulsory redundancy for public servants with only statutory redundancy.

The other thing I pick up from the news stories is that this isn't news. Pfizer has been in trouble for a while.

donalg1 · 15-05-2013 04:59PM

sharper wrote: »

I agree, that's actually my point. Public sector workers do value the job security unless they're being asked to have their salaries reflect that, at which point suddenly they claim their jobs aren't all that secure after all.

You can choose to work in the public sector in a secure job for a lower salary. Public sector workers want to work in a secure job for the same or better salary as a worker with no job security. That's a problem.

No public sector workers chose a secure job with a low salary, now they are being asked time and again to work for an even lower salary and that's a problem.

Godge · 15-05-2013 05:01PM

sharper wrote: »

I'm missing the word "digit" from my statement.

Curious that you think a single missing word completely invalidates everything someone has said, however.

The point remains the same.

5.5% on top of at least 15% which is what the higher earners are facing cannot be seen as quibbling over a single digit pay cut. By omitting the context of repeated pay cuts, you try to trivialise it. In actual fact, I think that for some of the higher earners, it is the fourth pay cut.

sharper · 15-05-2013 07:05PM

Godge wrote: »

The point remains the same.

It's quite clear that it doesn't.

The previous cuts also had extensive national debate. The simple point is that a public sector worker knows months in advance of any change to their terms and conditions while a private sector worker can come to work in the morning and learn their job is gone completely.

Your desire to distract from that point says plenty.

sharper · 15-05-2013 07:06PM

donalg1 wrote: »

No public sector workers chose a secure job with a low salary, now they are being asked time and again to work for an even lower salary and that's a problem.

The public sector enjoys a pay premium over the private sector, the numbers simply do not support what you're saying.

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 07:14PM

sharper wrote: »

The public sector enjoys a pay premium over the private sector, the numbers simply do not support what you're saying.

Would you have said the same 15/20 years ago when many of them joined?

sharper · 15-05-2013 07:16PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Would you have said the same 15/20 years ago when many of them joined?

Do you have figures from 15/20 years to dispute the point? If so by all means bring them.

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 08:10PM

sharper wrote: »

Do you have figures from 15/20 years to dispute the point? If so by all means bring them.

How would I have figures?
I played golf with a fireman and a garda on a regular basis and i was earning almost double what they got. They were open about it. I worked in a brewery then. I also didn't work nights.

woodoo · 15-05-2013 08:12PM

sharper wrote: »

On the topic of the value of job security and "waving colleagues out the door"

Job fears at Pfizer's Cork plant as staff called to management meeting

Something workers in the public sector are completely unfamiliar with is the feeling that comes with being invited to a meeting in the morning and not knowing if you'll have a job by lunch time.

Compare and contrast with the long lasting national level discussions around single pay cuts.

Lots of us have worked in the private sector too so we know how it works. Also i was on a temporary contract for the first 4 years as a public servant so i could have been let go any time during that. I worried about being let go all the time.

woodoo · 15-05-2013 08:14PM

creedp wrote: »

What's your solution - voluntary PS servitude? PS wages should be 50% lower than equivalent private wage wage? Or maybe you just simply want to continue the policy of slagging off PS workers

If boards was a bar it would be dangerous for a public servant to go in there for a pint

sharper · 15-05-2013 08:27PM

tayto lover wrote: »

How would I have figures?

You asked me a question, I need information to answer it with.

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 08:32PM

sharper wrote: »

You asked me a question, I need information to answer it with.

It's ok as I know the answer.

sharper · 15-05-2013 08:33PM

tayto lover wrote: »

It's ok as I know the answer.

Apparently you don't since you have no information either, you have what you remember from the golf course about some people you knew.

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 08:36PM

sharper wrote: »

Apparently you don't since you have no information either, you have what you remember from the golf course about some people you knew.

Which come to think of it convinces me I was better paid than them and didn't even have to work nights.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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