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Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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Comments

  • #392
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    Dont be silly ... Cruel LPT is a serious issue.

    Hitler did things legally .. an extreme example that Law does not make things JUST. ... and law certainly does not make LPT just.

    I guess ther is no point quoting Jefferson again?
    MadYaker wrote: »
    Not really considering he is an American politician who died a few hundred years ago and has no relevance to the Irish LPT.

    You've supposedly no problem with him quoting an Irish one so?
    Not just a politician, but now the Taoiseach.

    It is absurd that the Government, which has at its disposal the best experts and accountancy mechanisms in the land, can say that only an additional 12,000 will enter the property tax net. Surely it is obvious that this figure will be exceeded in the Dublin area. In general, the perception is that country people are against concessions being granted to Dublin but all Irish people believe that a man's house is his castle. It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1994/02/02/00007.asp


    Talk about doing a u- turn on your morals Enda.


  • #393
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    I dont think taxing property that is creating revenue is unjust .. taxing a family home and especially tax without an "ability to pay" clause and LPT waivers is unjust.

    The ordinary family home creates no revenue for the owner ... no revenue = no tax due. In fact the owner already pays tax on repairs and maintenance, so the family home is more a liability than an earning asset.

    Well aside form the fact that owning your own house provides notional revenue, I'm not sure why you think something needs to be revenue generating in order to be taxed. Plenty of other non-revenue generating assets are taxed as well.

    As for think it's "unjust", do you think every other country that operates a property tax system is also being unjust? Funnily enough, they all seem to manage it without bankrupting the poor, OAPs and the disabled.


  • #394
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Well aside form the fact that owning your own house provides notional revenue, I'm not sure why you think something needs to be revenue generating in order to be taxed. Plenty of other non-revenue generating assets are taxed as well.

    As for think it's "unjust", do you think every other country that operates a property tax system is also being unjust? Funnily enough, they all seem to manage it without bankrupting the poor, OAPs and the disabled.


    We should raise our corporate rate to match every other country too so right?


  • #395
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Well aside form the fact that owning your own house provides notional revenue, I'm not sure why you think something needs to be revenue generating in order to be taxed. Plenty of other non-revenue generating assets are taxed as well.

    As for think it's "unjust", do you think every other country that operates a property tax system is also being unjust? Funnily enough, they all seem to manage it without bankrupting the poor, OAPs and the disabled.

    FFS are we back to the comparing ourselves with other countries again?
    What other countries have a USC, a very high VRT rate etc etc etc.
    Same ole, same ole going on all the time by the same people.
    We pay an average of 52% tax and levies of all kinds on our wages and now we are to be lumped again with LPT and water taxes. The people have nothing left to give.
    BUT ignore the Credit Union reports, the rise of Soup Kitchens, re-possessions, emigration etc and continue to back up Fine Gael at all costs.


  • #396
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    SamHall wrote: »
    We should raise our corporate rate to match every other country too so right?
    tayto lover wrote: »
    FFS are we back to the comparing ourselves with other countries again?
    What other countries have a USC, a very high VRT rate etc etc etc.
    Same ole, same ole going on all the time by the same people.
    We pay an average of 52% tax and levies of all kinds on our wages and now we are to be lumped again with LPT and water taxes. The people have nothing left to give.
    BUT ignore the Credit Union reports, the rise of Soup Kitchens, re-possessions, emigration etc and continue to back up Fine Gael at all costs.

    I think you're both missing the point here. The discussion was about whether the property tax was somehow uniquely unjust in itself. Which it clearly isn't given that plenty of other countries manage to do it. This is not the same as saying "I don't want to pay the property tax because I think I pay enough tax already".

    BTW, we don't pay "an average of 52 per cent on our wages". The marginal rate is 52 per cent, not the average


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  • #397
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    tayto lover wrote: »
    What other countries have... a very high VRT rate...
    The top rate of VRT in Denmark is 180%.


  • #398
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Revenue themselves.

    And do revenue keep it for themselves?


  • #399
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The top rate of VRT in Denmark is 180%.

    And for other countries?

    http://www.independent.ie/business/waiting-for-the-end-of-vrt-dont-hold-your-breath-26032068.html

    Irish pre-tax prices on cars are among the lowest in Europe.

    But after VRT in slapped on, prices are among the highest, around 40pc dearer on average.


  • #400
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    darkhorse wrote: »
    And do revenue keep it for themselves?

    Investigation into alleged theft of credit card details relating to Property Tax announced by Revenue:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0512/391864-probe-into-alleged-property-tax-helpline-fraud/


  • #401
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    I think you're both missing the point here.

    I'm not.

    My last two points were about what the leader of FG (Our Taoiseach) said in the Dail about taxing a family home. And what we try and copy from 'other countries'.

    once again:
    It is absurd that the Government, which has at its disposal the best experts and accountancy mechanisms in the land, can say that only an additional 12,000 will enter the property tax net. Surely it is obvious that this figure will be exceeded in the Dublin area. In general, the perception is that country people are against concessions being granted to Dublin but all Irish people believe that a man's house is his castle. It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grin Which it clearly isn'td him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional.

    Enda Kenny said it was immoral, unjust and unfair Vladamir, not I.
    You should lobby him to give some reasoning as to his u-turn:confused:

    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    The discussion was about whether the property tax was somehow uniquely unjust in itself. given that plenty of other countries manage to do it. This is not the same as saying "I don't want to pay the property tax because I think I pay enough tax already".

    So, I reiterate my point, why must we emulate a family home tax (though ours is indeed unique in that we get nothing for ours) from 'all other countries', yet the government steadfast refuse to raise our corporation tax rates to match 'those of other European countries'?

    Btw, I love digging up that quote from Enda.
    I hope the history books tear strips from him on that quote alone;)

    Unconstitutional Enda? Really? Yet you're attempting to ram it down our throats now no matter what?


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  • #402
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    darkhorse wrote: »
    And do revenue keep it for themselves?

    No.


  • #403
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SamHall wrote: »
    Enda Kenny said it was immoral, unjust and unfair Vladamir, not I.
    You should lobby him to give some reasoning as to his u-turn:confused:
    You've never changed your mind about anything whatsoever over a 19-year period?


  • #404
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    .... I'm not sure why you think something needs to be revenue generating in order to be taxed......

    Without "revenue generating" property, where are the poor to get the money for LPT from, except directly from Soc Wel , DA or OAP. That is the CRUELTY of LPT.
    The cruelty also applies to LPT on those unable to pay heavy mortgages.
    Please dont give me this nonsense about LPT being modest .. I already quoted the examples of the old extortionate rates system on homes and the 150,000% (approx) raise in the car tax.

    2016 will come like a shot and at a modest guess the rate would go to €1,000 a year for a modest house. Eventually LPT would rise until they grab Phoebas,s home on his departure from this CRUEL LPT life (if he is a home owner, which I doubt).


  • #405
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,757 ✭✭✭flutered


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Seems like an extreme solution to take to evade tax ... but not as extreme as getting someone to demolish your house after your death as was suggested by someone else earlier.

    that was me as well, are i not getting the last word, the kids all have their own houses, where as my jumble of stone an mud has been around for more than a century and a quarter, so it cannot be worth much, unless some one decided that it should be a listed building, what happens then, not so far away from me is a very old two room house made from cut stone, some years ago i tried to buy it with the proviso that i could be moved to my land, then re built and turned into a museam, i got the fingr on that one, ah well back to bacis.


  • #406
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    Councillors in Dublin have little or no say ... the City Manager will impose a 15% raise on LPT even against their wishes.
    I'm pretty certain that a tax rise would have to be passed by a council vote.


  • #407
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    MadYaker wrote: »
    You really aren't doing your side of the argument any favors at all.

    Why do you say that?


  • #408
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Well aside form the fact that owning your own house provides notional revenue, I'm not sure why you think something needs to be revenue generating in order to be taxed. Plenty of other non-revenue generating assets are taxed as well.

    As for think it's "unjust", do you think every other country that operates a property tax system is also being unjust? Funnily enough, they all seem to manage it without bankrupting the poor, OAPs and the disabled.

    I'm not sure that "every other country" attempted to seamlessly introduce a property tax in the middle of their greatest economic recession.

    Any radical and relatively expensive new tax brought in overnight on anything, say for example an extra €130 euro motor tax on motor vehicles is bound to be rejected on the grounds that it is at the very least unfair and most likely unaffordable.


  • #409
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've never changed your mind about anything whatsoever over a 19-year period?

    Often had doubts.
    Never had a complete U-turn.
    10559682-u-turn-ahead-road-sign-isolated-on-white.jpg


  • #410
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You've never changed your mind about anything whatsoever over a 19-year period?


    Oh I have, don't get me wrong, but I didnt go on to lobby the Irish public to vote me into Govt without letting them know i had not only had a 'changed mind', but I had performed the greatest u-turn ever witnessed without telling the electorate.

    Enda Kenny hasn't a shred of integrity left about him imo.

    Proclaiming something as
    all Irish people believe that a man's house is his castle. It is morally unjust and unfair to tax a person's home, and by so doing grind him into the ground. Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional.
    is hardly on par with suddenly deciding Coronation street is better than Eastenders afterall.

    I especially like the " Indeed in cases it could probably be unconstitutional" part.

    Maybe he should call for a referendum on the whole family home tax thing, eh?


  • #411
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I'd have sympathy for that view if the LPT rate was very high, but its quite modest.

    For now.


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  • #412
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    cageyeuclid wrote: »
    Without "revenue generating" property, where are the poor to get the money for LPT from...
    Without a "revenue generating" car, where are the poor to get the money for motor tax from?

    There is no definition of tax that requires it to be related to income, unless it's income tax.
    tayto lover wrote: »
    Often had doubts.
    Never had a complete U-turn.
    How impressively consistent of you. Presumably you've never gone from being in opposition, where you're expected to say whatever it is you think the voters want to hear, to being in government, where you have to actually run the country. If you ever find yourself in that situation and still refuse to change your mind about anything whatsoever, let me know.


  • #413
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 56,719 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    How impressively consistent of you. Presumably you've never gone from being in opposition, where you're expected to say whatever it is you think the voters want to hear, to being in government, where you have to actually run the country. If you ever find yourself in that situation and still refuse to change your mind about anything whatsoever, let me know.[/QUOTE]

    So lying is acceptable for our leaders then. Thought so.
    Consistent of them anyway. Have principles at one time but complete opposite the next.


  • #414
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Phoebas wrote: »
    I'd have sympathy for that view if the LPT rate was very high, but its quite modest, especially for home owners in the lowest bands.

    Its all relative though isnt it?

    A single high earner in a modest abode wont have much trouble but an out of work family in a larger house probably will.


  • #415
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    Presumably you've never gone from being in opposition, where you're expected to say whatever it is you think the voters want to hear, to being in government, where you have to actually run the country.

    Wait a minute.....

    Are you actually admitting that Enda told a load of porkies to get into Govt, and that, that's ok?


  • #416
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    As for think it's "unjust", do you think every other country that operates a property tax system is also being unjust? Funnily enough, they all seem to manage it without bankrupting the poor, OAPs and the disabled.

    Please also include in my definition of poor all those on a minimum or low wage and those with crippling mortages and/or childcare.

    Even the €65,000 a year recipients might be in the negative equity / huge mortgage trap and the 7% cut that this lazy govt may LEGALLY impose on them will then make the expected LPT rate rises their nightmare as well.

    Dear Phoebas, include the above in your "Extreme cases", as i am sure they won't be near as offended as carers.


  • #417
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So lying is acceptable for our leaders then. Thought so.
    Leaving aside the fact that lying is demanded by our electorate as a prerequisite of getting elected (and then rewarded with outrage when the lies we demand as the price of power are shown to be such), it's just a tad harsh to accuse someone of lying when they change their position on something over two decades, particularly when the facts on which they base that position change rather dramatically in that period.
    Consistent of them anyway. Have principles at one time but complete opposite the next.
    If principles could pay for our public service payroll and social welfare, I'd be more tolerant of the demand for principles. As it is, the only principles the Irish people seem interested in are whichever ones involve someone else paying.


  • #418
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SamHall wrote: »
    Wait a minute.....

    Are you actually admitting that Enda told a load of porkies to get into Govt, and that, that's ok?
    I'm saying that every politician lies to get elected, and that's not OK, but it's the price we've set for election in this country, so - as tends to be the case in democracies - we are governed precisely as well as we deserve.


  • #419
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How impressively consistent of you. Presumably you've never gone from being in opposition, where you're expected to say whatever it is you think the voters want to hear, to being in government, where you have to actually run the country. If you ever find yourself in that situation and still refuse to change your mind about anything whatsoever, let me know.

    Are you condoning lying?

    As in the end justifies the means, for personal political gain, ie, votes?


  • #420
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Its all relative though isnt it?

    A single high earner in a modest abode wont have much trouble but an out of work family in a larger house probably will.
    It is.
    A single high earner is going to find it much easier to pay for pretty much anything than an out of work family.


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  • #421
    cageyeuclid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭cageyeuclid


    SamHall wrote: »
    Wait a minute.....

    Are you actually admitting that Enda told a load of porkies to get into Govt, and that, that's ok?

    A La Pat (Bright Eyes) Rabbitte ... isn,t it wat one does ... OMG they are all at it.


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