Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

Patser · 09-05-2013 10:52PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Ah that's kind of like saying they made you do it. You could call off the strike all by yourselves.

No if you look at what I posted I said that the fact there was a strike was down to the staff, not forced upon us. We could call off the strike, I agree, but 83% voted for industrial action as we don't agree with what's being asked.

What my post was saying is that the timing of the strike was in response to the time the changes were being brought in. Not as some sort of conspiracy to annoy students doing exams or such key opportunistic times.

Going Forward · 09-05-2013 10:59PM

Not sure about any real cost saving plans.

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=6600&categoryid=0

A bust "company" in a bust country spending like theres no tomorrow.
We've all seen them, the shiny new ones going into the most rural areas with about 10 OAPs on FT aboard..................................

This does not make any sense. No business manager in a private enterprise could condone such spending on new toys.

Has management and directors of the sinking ship taken any significant cuts?

suicide_circus · 09-05-2013 11:04PM

So the admin and management work 36 hrs per week and the drivers get double time for working a Sunday....are they for real? How the hell do people think thats a sustainable way to run a business? Why do they think the standard working week is 40hrs, for the laugh?
And why the do people think they deserve double their wages on a Sunday but not a Monday or a Thursday?

devnull · 09-05-2013 11:13PM

To be fair the buses for the urban city routes that were purchased were funded by the NTA and not by Bus Eireann directly since they were for the PSO services. The commuter coaches purchased for commuter areas were again funded by the NTA so Bus Eireann did not spend €30m themselves on vehicles.

The 28 other coaches that are mentioned in that article were bought out of the funds of Bus Eireann. Those 20 i6 coaches and 8 double decker VDL coaches would have been by far the most expensive vehicles price wise out of that order and were backed up by a widespread advertising campaign that was ran online and on TV and on street etc.

Whether it was financially wise to acquire 28 coaches last year and to spend so much money marketing on them if the company was struggling is open to debate.

n97 mini · 09-05-2013 11:17PM

Patser wrote: »

No if you look at what I posted I said that the fact there was a strike was down to the staff, not forced upon us. We could call off the strike, I agree, but 83% voted for industrial action as we don't agree with what's being asked.

What my post was saying is that the timing of the strike was in response to the time the changes were being brought in. Not as some sort of conspiracy to annoy students doing exams or such key opportunistic times.

I suppose my point is there is never a good time for you to go on strike, but I understand it is you and your colleagues that are choosing to go on strike.

devnull · 09-05-2013 11:21PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

So the admin and management work 36 hrs per week and the drivers get double time for working a Sunday....are they for real? How the hell do people think thats a sustainable way to run a business? Why do they think the standard working week is 40hrs, for the laugh?
And why the do people think they deserve double their wages on a Sunday but not a Monday or a Thursday?

I don't think it's sustainable myself either and there is no way things can carry on exactly the way they are in Bus Eireann, there is no doubt about it and the staff need to wake up and realise that they cannot realistically hold on to all of their terms and conditions.

However spending and costs need to be brought under control in the company to a level that they only spend in other areas what they can afford rather than spending too much and expecting the staff to take cuts to balance the books - it cannot work like that and is not fair.

EnoughIsEnough · 09-05-2013 11:22PM

As a C.I.E. commuter and customer (a daily 106 km round trip from West Cork to the city) I would ask both Management and Trade Unions to take a step back and sit down to resolve this matter.

A deal will only be reached through talking TO each other rather than the present talking AT each other which is rapidly descending into sniping and point scoring through the media while customers like myself look for an alternative means of travel from next Monday.

Going Forward · 09-05-2013 11:29PM

devnull wrote: »

To be fair the buses for the urban city routes that were purchased were funded by the NTA and not by Bus Eireann directly since they were for the PSO services. The commuter coaches purchased for commuter areas were again funded by the NTA so Bus Eireann did not spend €30m themselves on vehicles.

The 28 other coaches that are mentioned in that article were bought out of the funds of Bus Eireann. Those 20 i6 coaches and 8 double decker VDL coaches would have been by far the most expensive vehicles price wise out of that order and were backed up by a widespread advertising campaign that was ran online and on TV and on street etc.

Whether it was financially wise to acquire 28 coaches last year and to spend so much money marketing on them if the company was struggling is open to debate.

True, but its all taxpayers money.

Someone needs to take a long hard look at just exactly what BE is supposed to be- a flash government funded competitor to private companies on the viable commercial routes or a more PSO focused organisation which would legitimately be funded from the tax pot.

Of course if anything was to come of this, mass redundancies would be required.

LoonyLovegood · 09-05-2013 11:31PM

I really hope this doesn't go ahead. I'm completely dependent on Bus Eireann for getting to and from work, and can't afford the taxis each way. If it does, all cities (except Dublin) will have MAJOR public transport problems.

n97 mini · 09-05-2013 11:42PM

CTYIgirl wrote: »

I really hope this doesn't go ahead. I'm completely dependent on Bus Eireann for getting to and from work, and can't afford the taxis each way. If it does, all cities (except Dublin) will have MAJOR public transport problems.

If it does go ahead the commentators are saying it won't last more than a couple of days as the staff and unions don't have the money. i.e. they actually depend on the company to survive, something which seems to have been lost on 83% of them.

Tickityboo · 10-05-2013 12:40AM

It hasn't been lost on 83% of them!!
83% of them have finally said enough is enough!

Which is what the whole country should be doing.
Too many people think a race to the bottom will solve everything.

Austerity and cutbacks don't work.
People need money in their pockets to spend to get the country going again.

Striking is the only fight back they have.

These drivers aren't driving around in a van with a few boxes in the back they are driving 15 tonne 40 foot long vehicles with a precious cargo of 90+ people on board.

So why should they except to be paid more or less the same.

omicron · 10-05-2013 01:26AM

n97 mini wrote: »

If it does go ahead the commentators are saying it won't last more than a couple of days as the staff and unions don't have the money. i.e. they actually depend on the company to survive, something which seems to have been lost on 83% of them.

Tickityboo wrote: »

It hasn't been lost on 83% of them!!
83% of them have finally said enough is enough!

Which is what the whole country should be doing.
Too many people think a race to the bottom will solve everything.

Austerity and cutbacks don't work.
People need money in their pockets to spend to get the country going again.

Striking is the only fight back they have.

These drivers aren't driving around in a van with a few boxes in the back they are driving 15 tonne 40 foot long vehicles with a precious cargo of 90+ people on board.

So why should they except to be paid more or less the same.

What the poster was saying is that Bus Eireann can survive without the workers for longer than the workers can survive without bus eireann - and 83% of them don't seem to realise this.

By the way, these aren't exactly 'austerity' proposals- the company is losing money while staff work 36 hour weeks and get double pay for Sundays, which is clearly unsustainable.

Drivers drive similar vehicles in private companies for less, and the hour increases are only proposed for admin staff.

Del2005 · 10-05-2013 01:37AM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Rail could gain some long term passengers on some of BE expressway routes who left the train for whatever reason but now they my be impressed with the improvment in times and prepared to pay the higher fare.

Or else they'll move to the private companies which operate similar services, can't see many people jumping from one CIE company to the other when IR will need to do similar at some stage.

Tickityboo wrote: »

It hasn't been lost on 83% of them!!
83% of them have finally said enough is enough!

Which is what the whole country should be doing.
Too many people think a race to the bottom will solve everything.

Austerity and cutbacks don't work.
People need money in their pockets to spend to get the country going again.

Striking is the only fight back they have.

So you want to keep spending money we don't have? The country was broke even before we bailed out the banks. In private industry when times are good they hire and spend money like it's going out fashion, just like the public sector, but when times are slow they cut staff and reduce spending, unlike the public sector. You can't expect to keep everything the same when a company, or country, is loosing money yet the unions don't seem to realise that yet.

So how do you think we can pay for all the wages and benefits that you want people to keep and not increase taxes or burden your children with crippling debts?

Tickityboo wrote: »

These drivers aren't driving around in a van with a few boxes in the back they are driving 15 tonne 40 foot long vehicles with a precious cargo of 90+ people on board.

So why should they except to be paid more or less the same.

Driving 90+ on a Sunday isn't any different to driving them on a Tuesday. Why do the unions still think the world only runs Mon to Fri 9-5?

The issue of wages and standards for processional drivers will become a major issue soon, the unions are fighting the wrong battle on this one, as the fact you can earn more stacking shelves in a supermarket than driving a HGV/Bus is going to end badly.

Jamie2k9 · 10-05-2013 01:39AM

Maybe it will take jobs to be lost before the reality of living on 188 euro a week sets in and the unions make some effort ot engage. They have had 4 months or more to sort out the problem but haven't.

This strike will damage the company even further, private bus operators will benefit and will take passengers away from BE after this action ends.

Everybody has had to take pay cuts so unions should be finding solutions to come up with saving and not asking members to go on strike.

Irish Rail didn't get the bailout they wanted last year and Bus Eireann won't get one this year either, sooner unions and employees at BE realise this the better for everybody and their future working for the company.

end of the road · 10-05-2013 02:13AM

i think you'l find the unions realise all the things people seem to think they don't, but are threatening to strike as a last resort to get management to both offer a better deal then their offering and take some of the burden as well as the frontline staff, more then likely a deal will be reached before sunday

n97 mini · 10-05-2013 08:39AM

Tickityboo wrote: »

It hasn't been lost on 83% of them!!
83% of them have finally said enough is enough!

Which is what the whole country should be doing.
Too many people think a race to the bottom will solve everything.

Austerity and cutbacks don't work.
People need money in their pockets to spend to get the country going again.

Striking is the only fight back they have.

These drivers aren't driving around in a van with a few boxes in the back they are driving 15 tonne 40 foot long vehicles with a precious cargo of 90+ people on board.

So why should they except to be paid more or less the same.

The company is losing money. The alternative to making the books balance is to keep losing money until the credit supply is cut off and the company goes bust.

VONSHIRACH · 10-05-2013 09:10AM

n97 mini wrote: »

The company is losing money. The alternative to making the books balance is to keep losing money until the credit supply is cut off and the company goes bust.

I use a particular route on a weekly basis. I think that there are way too much buses on the service. There are almost hourly buses daily, too much choice, with averages of 8 people onboard off-peak. I was on a bus yesterday, a 90 minute journey of 50km. The driver took about €30 in fares, which doesn't cover wages or fuel. I remember when there were about 6 single decker services daily, now there are over 12 double-deckers daily, most virtually empty from 9am-5pm. A company has to eliminate waste, reduce costs and increase revenue, otherwise it is non-viable.

Trampas · 10-05-2013 09:13AM

My bus I get this morning never appeared. Maybe they have started the strike early

Vahevala · 10-05-2013 09:15AM

What annoys me about the whole situation is they think they have it bad, they don't. Personally, I don't get paid for overtime, I don't get paid anything extra if I work Saturday/Sunday/Bank holidays, my hours were changed from 39 hours a week to 40 hours, no extra pay.. pay freeze for more years than I would care to remember.

I am not able to go on strike, I realise that I am lucky to have a job. Some of these people striking would want to get a bloody grip.

bk · 10-05-2013 09:40AM

The danger for BE and it's staff here is if they do go on strike and the strike draws out, then if the public see the private companies continue to operate through the strike without issue, it may lead to increased support from the public to breakup and privatise BE.

Think of something similar to Taxi deregulation.

n97 mini · 10-05-2013 10:14AM

bk wrote: »

The danger for BE and it's staff here is if they do go on strike and the strike draws out, then if the public see the private companies continue to operate through the strike without issue, it may lead to increased support from the public to breakup and privatise BE.

It would, but no-one has the balls to do that, or the wit.

Imagine if Leo had every private operator in the country lined up to come out on Sunday and cover all the BE routes.

I think pigs will fly first, even if Labour weren't in govt.

devnull · 10-05-2013 10:38AM

As I've said, the fact is that the staff need to realise that they need to shoulder some of the changes to change the fortunes of the company and management need to play their part too. Only this morning I have seen staff blaming the government saying they want to crush the company because of their austerity policies and it is they who the staff are standing up against and not the company.

The fact is too many people in the public sector and semi states in this country have got used to being bailed out by the government at last resort to solve issues, rather than dealing with their own issues internally, creating a sustainable cost base and terms and conditions that mean the company can actually work in a way which does not require being bailed out by the tax payer completely.

Whether you agree with austerity or not, the fact is this country is spending more than it is bringing in and that needs to be addressed. I'm sure many sections of the civil service and related companies would like a bigger budget but the country simply cannot afford it right now. The irony is during the boom years some people argued in the public sector they should get increases because the private sector was booming.

if they want that, then at the same time, if they want to have their wages rise when the economy booms, they need to realise it works the other way too, if they don't like that then nobody forced them to accept the rises in the good time, but instead you get the sense that some staff very much want to have their cake and eat it, if the economy booms, that means they should be rewarded in line with it, but if it falters, that is nothing to do with them.

Staff in Bus Eireann are not badly paid by any strech of the word. I'm not saying they are vastly overpaid either, but they have it far better than most in this country and to see people arguing about working a full week as opposed to early finishes on a Friday is disrespectful to the taxpayers like the average man or woman on the street who are funding their company through their own taxes but at the same time have seen all such same clauses eradicated.

True it is not the fault of the public sector that it has happened, but the fact is the country is in crisis and we're all in this together to steal a phrase, but at the same time some people think they should be exempt from all effects on themselves in the workplace, but these then are the people who are moaning the most despite the fact these are the ones who have kept lots of terms and conditions the majority of the population have lost long ago.

As I said I have some sympathy for the staff in Bus Eireann as I believe that they are trying to force too many cuts on staff without addressing other problems in the company and that is not fair. However at the same time the staff need to get real and realise that simply saying they are not willing to make any chances to any terms and conditions is simply not possible in the current climate.

The country was left in a right state a couple of years ago when the IMF were called in, of course we're still in a state now, but the only way we can fix things it to get things into a position where we are not vastly spending more than we are bringing in. Of course, the levels of bank debt are crazy high. But the fact is the previous government did not act and the levels kept building and building and building and the longer it will take for the economy to recover as a result.

Or you can do nothing and keep spending money and we can turn into Greece, your choice. the more debt we build up, the tougher and longer it will take to repay it. You simply cannot keep spending money you don't have, it's not sustainable and just creates an even bigger bubble which one day will burst creating a large crisis Now where have I seen that before?

schemingbohemia · 10-05-2013 10:42AM

The only real impact on drivers it seems to me, is a reduction in their Sunday pay, that's it. Going on strike for an outmoded/outdated "allowance" is just stupid. BE workers, unlike virtually all other public sector workers, have not had a pay cut.

Patser · 10-05-2013 11:26AM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The only real impact on drivers it seems to me, is a reduction in their Sunday pay, that's it. Going on strike for an outmoded/outdated "allowance" is just stupid. BE workers, unlike virtually all other public sector workers, have not had a pay cut.

Ok trying to stick to facts here and also yo counter some of the other arguments above not just Scheming Bohemians ;

Drivers at BE have been flexible about changes over the last few years and we can see what's needed. Back in 2009 there was an agreement that led to 230 driver redundancies and changes to terms and conditions. No fuss, no strike threats, we recognized the need and made an agreement.

After that national agreement things focused more on local efficiencies, some routes were cut and on others express services were improved leading to reduced running time. All of this led to reduced hours for drivers and less pay. In
official speak this is the efficiencies you here mentioned but in reality for drivers it's reduced pay. Personally I can show that over the last 4 years I'm down over 4 hours a week work - and since this was rostered overtime above basic, that's a higher loss of wages than normal. Again though all of this was done through agreement and with little fuss, so no-one
heard about it.

These current changes were initially to be introduced in January, without any agreement and now again on Sunday they'll be introduced after 10 days notice after management walked out of negotiations.

For drivers the proposed changes include reductions in Sunday, shift, meal allowances. Also a loss of 3 days holidays and a reduction to 2 the amount of sick days we can declare annually. Another big one is a reduction in outbased allowance. This is kind of a travel expense for a driver that'll cover holidays/sickness for other drivers scattered around an area - for example a covering driver might have to cover a Wicklow driver 1 day and a Navan driver the next. That allowance covers that but will be reduced. All these allowance cuts will hit the driver in the pocket.

In the mean time from management there's a proposed productivity increase of 8%. No salary reduction just 3 hours more work a week. Considering they're in a salaried position with no overtime or shift savings to come, and also that they're in a non-revenue generating role with no increased income for the company, you can appreciate it looks like a sop to appear to be doing something.

I cannot comment on clerical or the mechanics particular issues except to say the mechanics do work shifts too.

Also as per the NBRU chairman on Newstalk earlier the Unions are looking to stop the strike and enter talks anytime.

listermint · 10-05-2013 11:39AM

Patser wrote: »

Ok trying to stick to facts here and also yo counter some of the other arguments above not just Scheming Bohemians ;

Drivers at BE have been flexible about changes over the last few years and we can see what's needed. Back in 2009 there was an agreement that led to 230 driver redundancies and changes to terms and conditions. No fuss, no strike threats, we recognized the need and made an agreement.

After that national agreement things focused more on local efficiencies, some routes were cut and on others express services were improved leading to reduced running time. All of this led to reduced hours for drivers and less pay. In
official speak this is the efficiencies you here mentioned but in reality for drivers it's reduced pay. Personally I can show that over the last 4 years I'm down over 4 hours a week work - and since this was rostered overtime above basic, that's a higher loss of wages than normal. Again though all of this was done through agreement and with little fuss, so no-one
heard about it.

These current changes were initially to be introduced in January, without any agreement and now again on Sunday they'll be introduced after 10 days notice after management walked out of negotiations.

For drivers the proposed changes include reductions in Sunday, shift, meal allowances. Also a loss of 3 days holidays and a reduction to 2 the amount of sick days we can declare annually. Another big one is a reduction in outbased allowance. This is kind of a travel expense for a driver that'll cover holidays/sickness for other drivers scattered around an area - for example a covering driver might have to cover a Wicklow driver 1 day and a Navan driver the next. That allowance covers that but will be reduced. All these allowance cuts will hit the driver in the pocket.

In the mean time from management there's a proposed productivity increase of 8%. No salary reduction just 3 hours more work a week. Considering they're in a salaried position with no overtime or shift savings to come, and also that they're in a non-revenue generating role with no increased income for the company, you can appreciate it looks like a sop to appear to be doing something.

I cannot comment on clerical or the mechanics particular issues except to say the mechanics do work shifts too.

Also as per the NBRU chairman on Newstalk earlier the Unions are looking to stop the strike and enter talks anytime.

All of these items are the first things to be impacted in any private enterprise that is not matching its incomings with its out goings.

As you can see in the other thread 300,000 people have emigrated in the last 3-4 years from this country. This is not 2005 anymore if there is not customers and no money then its not sustainable.

I can only imagine having a meal allowance or double time on sunday when i have to go in and work but i dont and i bring my own fully paid for lunches with me. Why ? because thats life and life is tough.

Unions only use labour court recommendations when it suits them and point to the labour court as their saviour when everything goes wrong.

I have plenty of sympathy for people in your position but on the other side i have none because i have family members who have had more than 20-30% reductions in the overall take home due to dropped shifts complete removal of previous subsidised canteens (private sector) and no sunday allowances ever. Because cloth has to be cut to measure otherwise the business closes up and opens in malaysia instead.

schemingbohemia · 10-05-2013 11:42AM

Fair point, I should have said basic pay. Overtime is exactly that, it should never be relied upon as part of core pay. What's your annual sick pay "allowance", presumably this only refers to uncertified sick leave? Therefore just get a Doctor's cert and you're fine.

Are those other allowances paid in other comparable companies?

devnull · 10-05-2013 11:50AM

Patser wrote: »

After that national agreement things focused more on local efficiencies, some routes were cut and on others express services were improved leading to reduced running time. All of this led to reduced hours for drivers and less pay. In

Personally I can show that over the last 4 years I'm down over 4 hours a week work - and since this was rostered overtime above basic, that's a higher loss of wages than normal. Again though all of this was done through agreement and with little fuss, so no-one heard about it.

This goes very well with the thread about the driver changes at the depot near Clontarf Road in that you seem to forget one key argument. The whole point of having a publicly owned public transport system is for the staff to serve the public in the most efficient way possible. That is the role of the public sector companies, to serve the public.

Anyone who even hints at the fact that they have a problem with routes being changed, therefore made better for the public that the whole idea of your company is to serve, is a bad thing since it means less money for the actual people who are working in the company are taking their eye off the bigger picture which I outlined in the paragraph above. The job of the staff is to serve the public, that is why you get our taxes. If staff feel that their own interests come above that of the public, then as I said previously they are quite frankly in the wrong job.

Also nobody has a divine right to overtime. It's a perk if you can get it but it's not a right in any company. For sure some people have got used to it, but in the current climate a company that is losing money cannot afford to be paying out overtime on a weekly basis. Overtime should be reserved just to cover higher than normal levels of sickness, extra events or when need for extra resources during busy time is required. Overtime should not be worked into standard rosters in any well run business.

These current changes were initially to be introduced in January, without any agreement and now again on Sunday they'll be introduced after 10 days notice after management walked out of negotiations.

It was reported yesterday that the unions said they were unwilling to make any concessions that effected pay in any way. That doesn't sound like people who are trying to hammer out a deal, but in all fairness I don't exactly see management being open to talks either so both sides need to get real and get talking rather than blaming 100% on each other.

For drivers the proposed changes include reductions in Sunday, shift

How much of a reduction?

meal allowances

Hands up who else here gets that? I don't know of anyone myself who gets meals paid for. I pay for my lunch myself. Why should the taxpayer pay for you lunch?

Also a loss of 3 days holidays

From how many to how many?

and a reduction to 2 the amount of sick days we can declare annually

No, it's a reduction in the number of paid self certified days not the number of sick days that you can call in according to the unions and what has been outlined before.

Again that is better than the majority of people in this country. Many people are struggling to get any pay if they are certified and most will get no sick pay at all. But Bus Eireann drivers are moaning they don't get enough self certified days.

In the mean time from management there's a proposed productivity icrease of 8%. No salary reduction just 3 hours more work a week.

But they are working 3 more hours a week for the same pay aren't they? So in real terms that is a cut to their hourly rate. Working more hours for the same pay is a form of a pay cut, just like Getting paid less for the same time is. Both reduce hourly rates.

I'm not saying that management are taking their fair share of the blame for the situation, they are not in my view but to say that they are not taking any hit whatsoever is wrong and misleading.

Also as per the NBRU chairman on Newstalk earlier the Unions are looking to stop the strike and enter talks anytime.

But as above, yesterday they said they were not prepared to agree to any cuts in pay.

end of the road · 10-05-2013 12:51PM

Vahevala wrote: »

these people striking would want to get a bloody grip.

no they wouldn't, their doing it because they feel they have no other option, if someone gets to the stage where they feel their only option is to take a legitimate option such as with-holding their labour then thats exactly what they should do, i support anyones right to strike public or private sector worker, sure its better it doesn't get to the stage of striking but if theirs no other option then so be it, i hope that a deal will be reached and strikes will be averted but if they can't be then unfortunately so be it

end of the road · 10-05-2013 12:54PM

bk wrote: »

The danger for BE and it's staff here is if they do go on strike and the strike draws out, then if the public see the private companies continue to operate through the strike without issue, it may lead to increased support from the public to breakup and privatise BE.

considering the government don't take public support for something into account for anything i can't see them taking it into account should they decide to privatise BE, if they decide to go ahead with doing such a thing it will be because of their own agenda

end of the road · 10-05-2013 12:57PM

n97 mini wrote: »

Imagine if Leo had every private operator in the country lined up to come out on Sunday and cover all the BE routes.

I think pigs will fly first, even if Labour weren't in govt.

considering such a thing could possibly cause some civil unrest, i'm not surprised that they wouldn't do it

Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

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