Bobby Sands R.I.P. 5th May 1981

gallag · 06-05-2013 05:30PM

Bobby sands believed that murdering innocent civilians was an acceptable way to achieve a united ireland against the will of the majority of people in N.I. I still admire his commitment though, very few people will starve to death for their beliefs. Its also worth noting that SF has the hunger strikers blood on their hands, but using death as a tool to circumvent democracy was nothing new to them.

That sands burger bar has to be the most tacky thing ever.

.jacksparrow. · 06-05-2013 05:38PM

gallag wrote: »

Bobby sands believed that murdering innocent civilians was an acceptable way to achieve a united ireland against the will of the majority of people in N.I. I still admire his commitment though, very few people will starve to death for their beliefs. Its also worth noting that SF has the hunger strikers blood on their hands, but using death as a tool to circumvent democracy was nothing new to them.

That sands burger bar has to be the most tacky thing ever.

He believed in murdering innocent civilians? I missed that memo
He must have got these ideals from the BA.

Sunnyisland · 06-05-2013 05:49PM

Madam wrote: »

I'm kind of shocked by that but what would be the overall number killed by each group. I mean 9% or what:)

Republican paramilitaries combined are responsible for 2060 casualties during the Troubles:

727 Civilians
1080 British Security Forces
187 Republican paramilitaries (inclusive of accidents, informers and feuds)
56 Loyalist paramilitaries.
10 Irish security.

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html Enter "Status Summary" as the first variable & "Organisation Summary" and the second.)

35% of the people killed by Republicans were civilians. The designation civilian in this summary is inclusive of politicians (25 killed), prison officers (22 killed), suspected informers (who weren’t members of Republican paramilitaries) and accused criminals who were killed by Republicans acting as vigilantes. However the majority of civilians are those completely uninvolved who were caught up in bombings/shootings.

The above figures are inclusive of all Republican groups up to 1999 (PIRA, OIRA, INLA, IPLO, IPLO Belfast and the RIRA) Omagh is included. By 1999 the CIRA had killed no one. The figures also include all civilians deaths perpetrated by Republican’s using cover names such as Direct Action Against Drugs, Republican Action Force, Catholic Reaction Force ect.

The figures for the Provisional IRA are as follows. The PIRA caused the deaths of 1711 people:

512 Civilians
1012 British Security Forces
141 Republican paramilitaries
39 Loyalist Paramiltaries
7 Irish security

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html enter "Status" as the first variable and "Organisation" as the second)

29.9% of the people killed by the PIRA were civilians.

Loyalist paramilitaries killed 1016 people during the Troubles:

868 Civilians
14 British Security
41 Republican paramilitaries.
93 Loyalist paramilitaries (mostly feuds, some accidents)

85.43% of people killed by Loyalists were civilians. 4.7% of the people killed by Loyalists were Republican paramilitaries. That figure includes Republicans who were ex-paramilitaries. Loyalists killed more civilians then anyone during the Troubles.

The overwhelming majority of these (684) were Catholic civilians who Loyalists intentionally and wilfully murdered. Of the remainder, the largest minority were Protestant civilians who were murdered when mistaken for being Catholics. A smaller minority were Protestant civilians killed by Loyalists for personal/criminal reasons.

The Loyalists and British Security Forces combined killed 1055 civilians during the Troubles. That's 328 more civilians then all Republican groups combined and more then double the number civilians who were killed by the PIRA.

*in their "Status summary" CAIN counts ex-paramilitaries as paramilitaries and ex-UDR/RUC as British Security.*

To get a full break down you can create cross tabulations: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/selecttabs.html

originally posted by exile1798 in 2011,

A lot of people here like to see & hear just one side of the coin.I have always said that there was more than one side to this conflict/war and imo the more people who accept this the better the future for all will be. Acceptance is the key.

ps I am 51.

gallag · 06-05-2013 06:05PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

He believed in murdering innocent civilians? I missed that memo
He must have got these ideals from the BA.

Do you need a memo? He was a IRA commander and the IRA killed innocent civilians.

Madd Finn · 06-05-2013 07:14PM

Are there any people under the age of 30 nowadays who were given the name Robert but are known as "Bobby"?

I reckon if he was growing up today he'd be called "Rob".

That's if he wasn't called Wayne or Keith.

.jacksparrow. · 06-05-2013 07:59PM

gallag wrote: »

Do you need a memo? He was a IRA commander and the IRA killed innocent civilians.

You said he targeted innocent civilians and accepted this, I don't think you can back this up with any evidence, but who knows.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 08:06PM

realies wrote: »

35% of the people killed by Republicans were civilians. The designation civilian in this summary is inclusive of politicians (25 killed), prison officers (22 killed), suspected informers (who weren’t members of Republican paramilitaries) and accused criminals who were killed by Republicans acting as vigilantes. However the majority of civilians are those completely uninvolved who were caught up in bombings/shootings.
[...]

The overwhelming majority of these (684) were Catholic civilians who Loyalists intentionally and wilfully murdered. Of the remainder, the largest minority were Protestant civilians who were murdered when mistaken for being Catholics. A smaller minority were Protestant civilians killed by Loyalists for personal/criminal reasons.

Interesting.
The civilians killed by republicans were 'caught up' in the violence, but the ones killed by loyalists were 'intentionally and wilfully murdered'.

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 08:13PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Interesting.
The civilians killed by republicans were 'caught up' in the violence, but the ones killed by loyalists were 'intentionally and wilfully murdered'.

Google the Shankill butchers Phoebas.....

Come back to me when you've that one googled, I've a lot more for you to educate yourself on after that.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 08:19PM

SamHall wrote: »

Google the Shankill butchers Phoebas.....

Come back to me when you've that one googled, I've a lot more for you to educate yourself on after that.

Why do you think I'm not educated on the Shankill butchers?

I wouldn't suggest for a moment that the loyalists didn't intentionally and wilfully murder people. Clearly they did, as did republicans. I just find it odd that republican murders were framed in a more benign way compared to loyalist murders

Nodin · 06-05-2013 08:27PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Why do you think I'm not educated on the Shankill butchers?
I wouldn't suggest for a moment that the loyalists didn't intentionally and wilfully murder people. Clearly they did, as did republicans. I just find it odd that republican murders were framed in a more benign way compared to loyalist murders

What they're saying is that many civillians were unintentionally killed by one and intentionally killed by the other.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-05-2013 08:36PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

You said he targeted innocent civilians and accepted this, I don't think you can back this up with any evidence, but who knows.

ok we have reached the part of the thread where the terrorist apologists start splitting hairs.
The lock is now estimated at 11.36am on Wednesday

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 08:42PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Why do you think I'm not educated on the Shankill butchers?
I wouldn't suggest for a moment that the loyalists didn't intentionally and wilfully murder people. Clearly they did, as did republicans. I just find it odd that republican murders were framed in a more benign way compared to loyalist murders

Because you said:

Phoebas wrote: »

Interesting.
The civilians killed by republicans were 'caught up' in the violence, but the ones killed by loyalists were 'intentionally and wilfully murdered'.

There are countless examples of Loyalist's murdering people in the north for nothing more than their religion.

The Shankill butchers. Who actively hunted catholics, tortured and mutilated them before executing their victims.

The many pub shootings that happened over the years, innocent people shot down in a hail of bullets for nothing more than committing the carinal sin of being born a 'fenian'.

While the loyalists did target Republicans in some instances, loyalist paramilitaries tended to go for the softer targets, those like 61 year old Sean Brown, Chairman of a GAA hall in County Derry abducted, shot and killed and his car burned out, or Fergal McCusker 28 years old from Maghera, shot dead by loyalists only 2 weeks after he returned to Ireland from Boston.

Two examples of people shot by Loyalists, for nothing more than the heinous crime of being a catholic.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 08:46PM

Nodin wrote: »

What they're saying is that many civillians were unintentionally killed by one and intentionally killed by the other.

Yeah I get that. It's not true of course. Both loyalists and republicans intentionally killed civilians. (And both loyalists and republicans unintentionally killed civilians too).

bennyl10 · 06-05-2013 08:46PM

Bobby Sands was, no matter how you try and spin it, a murderer of civilians. He was a commander of The I.R.A.
Yes it was sad to see him die, and yes the British probably should have tried a little bit harder with the prisoners, but should we really be making him out to be a hero?..

He is far from a hero. He was a terrorist.

johnnyskeleton · 06-05-2013 08:51PM

bennyl10 wrote: »

Bobby Sands was, no matter how you try and spin it, a murderer of civilians. He was a commander of The I.R.A.
Yes it was sad to see him die, and yes the British probably should have tried a little bit harder with the prisoners, but should we really be making him out to be a hero?..

He is far from a hero. He was a terrorist.

So was nelson Mandela, from a certain point of view. And George Washington.

Indeed FDR and chruchill killed more civilians than any of them yet, because they were on the side of two large world powers, they are war heroes.

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-05-2013 08:52PM

briany wrote: »

Not a street exactly, but there is/was a burger restaurant in Tehran named after Bobby which I think is near his street in the city. Frankly, some would find putting his face on the front of a fast food establishment ironic at best, but whatever.

a few years ago a monument to him and the others was put up in Tralee, close to the junction of the Listowel road and the road that passes the main ITT gate, it was quiet a prominent location and a busy spot.
However try have now bypassed that road and the monument now sits at the end of an obscure cul de sac, no loss if you ask me

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 08:52PM

bennyl10 wrote: »

Bobby Sands was, no matter how you try and spin it, a murderer of civilians. He was a commander of The I.R.A.
Yes it was sad to see him die, and yes the British probably should have tried a little bit harder with the prisoners, but should we really be making him out to be a hero?..

He is far from a hero. He was a terrorist.

Hi Benny, could you post a link (just one will do) that backs up your claim that Bobby killed a civillian, never mind civillians.

Take your time now.

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 08:53PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

a few years ago a monument to him and the others was put up in Tralee, close to the junction of the Listed road and the road that passes the main ITT gate, it was quiet a prominent location and a busy spot.
However try have now bypassed that road and the monument now sits at the end of an obscure cul de sac, no loss if you ask me

We didn't.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 08:54PM

SamHall wrote: »

There are countless examples of Loyalist's murdering people in the north for nothing more than their religion.

And I never suggested they didn't?

SamHall wrote: »

The Shankill butchers. Who actively hunted catholics, tortured and mutilated them before executing their victims.

Yeah. I know all about that. I don't know who you read my post and came to the conclusion that I wasn't aware of what the Shankill butchers did?

SamHall wrote: »

The many pub shootings that happened over the years, innocent people shot down in a hail of bullets for nothing more than committing the carinal sin of being born a 'fenian'.

Yeah. I'm aware of that. Why did you think I wasn't.

SamHall wrote: »

While the loyalists did target Republicans in some instances, loyalist paramilitaries tended to go for the softer targets, those like 61 year old Sean Brown, Chairman of a GAA hall in County Derry abducted, shot and killed and his car burned out, or Fergal McCusker 28 years old from Maghera, shot dead by loyalists only 2 weeks after he returned to Ireland from Boston.

They sure did. I was already fully educated about that.

SamHall wrote: »

Two examples of people shot by Loyalists, for nothing more than the heinous crime of being a catholic.

I remember it all very well.

So why did you think I need an education? It seems to be a common reaction that anyone deviating from the republican script are in need of re-education.

R P McMurphy · 06-05-2013 08:55PM

SamHall wrote: »

Hi Benny, could you post a link (just one will do) that backs up your claim that Bobby killed a civillian, never mind civillians.

Take your time now.

Never mind a link about killing civilians ... a link about killing anyone would do

Fr Tod Umptious · 06-05-2013 08:59PM

SamHall wrote: »

We didn't.

just giving an opinion which is what this place is for.
But hey, it does not suprise me that some here do not like contrary opinions to theirs

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 09:05PM

So why did you think I need an education? It seems to be a common reaction that anyone deviating from the republican script are in need of re-education.

Well it all stemmed from this post:

Phoebas wrote: »

Interesting.
The civilians killed by republicans were 'caught up' in the violence, but the ones killed by loyalists were 'intentionally and wilfully murdered'.

I assumed from that post that you may have missed the various news articles proving beyond any shadow of a doubt , that loyalist death squads, in many instances, in collusion with the security forces, were indeed guilty of 'intentionally and wilfully murdering' innocent civillians.

Loughlinisland, Greysteel, etc etc etc.

Hence why I thought you may needed to educate yourself on loyalist attrocities.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 09:08PM

SamHall wrote: »

Hi Benny, could you post a link (just one will do) that backs up your claim that Bobby killed a civillian, never mind civillians.

Take your time now.

I think the charge was that he was a murderer, not that he killed anyone. So an IRA commander could sanction murders (and be a murderer) without actually killing someone.

Sands was a commander in Long Kesh, but that obviously doesn't mean that he sanctioned any killings at all, although prison officers were targeted during his time.

Phoebas · 06-05-2013 09:10PM

SamHall wrote: »

Well it all stemmed from this post:

I assumed from that post that you may have missed the various news articles proving beyond any shadow of a doubt , that loyalist death squads, in many instances, in collusion with the security forces, were indeed guilty of 'intentionally and wilfully murdering' innocent civillians.

Loughlinisland, Greysteel, etc etc etc.

Hence why I thought you may needed to educate yourself on loyalist attrocities.

I didn't suggest at all that loyalists didn't intentionally and wilfully murder innocent civilians.
Its pretty bloody obvious to everyone that they did.

ONeill2013 · 06-05-2013 10:13PM

SamHall wrote: »

Because you said:

There are countless examples of Loyalist's murdering people in the north for nothing more than their religion.

The Shankill butchers. Who actively hunted catholics, tortured and mutilated them before executing their victims.

The many pub shootings that happened over the years, innocent people shot down in a hail of bullets for nothing more than committing the carinal sin of being born a 'fenian'.

While the loyalists did target Republicans in some instances, loyalist paramilitaries tended to go for the softer targets, those like 61 year old Sean Brown, Chairman of a GAA hall in County Derry abducted, shot and killed and his car burned out, or Fergal McCusker 28 years old from Maghera, shot dead by loyalists only 2 weeks after he returned to Ireland from Boston.

Two examples of people shot by Loyalists, for nothing more than the heinous crime of being a catholic.

Here's the crimewatch re-enactment of that murder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbFFyS7V4-Y

Chinasea · 06-05-2013 10:29PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Any man who stands by while their family is burned out of their house is a coward, but the people who judge them are the bigger cowards.

“Seas of blood have been shed for the sake of patriotism. One would expect the harm and irrationality of patriotism to be self-evident to everyone. But the surprising fact is that cultured and learned people not only do not notice the harm and stupidity of patriotism, they resist every unveiling of it with the greatest obstinacy and passion, and continue to praise it as beneficent and elevating.” Leo Tolstoy

RandomName2 · 06-05-2013 10:31PM

Are people here actually attempting to provide arguments that the Republican paramilitaries were nicer terrorists than Loyalist paramilitaries.

Really? :pac:

Next up: Saddam vs Stalin. Which was the more pleasant dictator?

SamHall wrote: »

Hi Benny, could you post a link (just one will do) that backs up your claim that Bobby killed a civillian, never mind civillians.

Take your time now.

Not my claim but "English, Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA, p. 196–198". Implicated in the bombing of a furniture shop which killed four civilians (two of whom were infants). Sloppy prosecution, although Sands ultimately didn't seem too aggrieved by it; instead opposed the fact that such a bombing was not considered a military act.

pablomakaveli · 06-05-2013 10:37PM

Nodin wrote: »

What they're saying is that many civillians were unintentionally killed by one and intentionally killed by the other.

So basically Republicans weren't as bad as Loyalists because some of the civilians they killed were killed unintentionally?

That isnt exactly going to give them the moral high ground. Both sides killed civilians intentionally. Trying to trot out numbers and say well the loyalists killed more civilians than us doesn't really mean a whole lot. Both sides were as bad as each other.

Both sides did terrible things. There were no good guys.

Banjo String · 06-05-2013 10:45PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Are people here actually attempting to provide arguments that the Republican paramilitaries were nicer terrorists than Loyalist paramilitaries.

No not at all. Just asserting the fact that the loyalists tended to actively target innocent civilians based on religion.

Keep looking for something that's not there though by all means.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Not my claim but "English, Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA, p. 196–198". Implicated in the bombing of a furniture shop which killed four civilians (two of whom were infants). Sloppy prosecution, although Sands ultimately didn't seem too aggrieved by it; instead opposed the fact that such a bombing was not considered a military act.

That's not a link that backs up the earlier claim that Bobby Sands was a murderer.

.jacksparrow. · 06-05-2013 10:46PM

Chinasea wrote: »

“Seas of blood have been shed for the sake of patriotism. One would expect the harm and irrationality of patriotism to be self-evident to everyone. But the surprising fact is that cultured and learned people not only do not notice the harm and stupidity of patriotism, they resist every unveiling of it with the greatest obstinacy and passion, and continue to praise it as beneficent and elevating.” Leo Tolstoy

Well that's 15 seconds of my life I will never get back.

Bobby Sands R.I.P. 5th May 1981

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