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td's wont be allowed to take communion if they vote for abortion.

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Comments

  • #392
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Eamonn Casey would have remained a Bishop had he been abusing children rather than starting a family!


  • #393
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    awec wrote: »
    What would the church know about social justice?
    Comments like this make me think there is indeed no place for rational discussion in AH.

    Social Justice is a term that comes from the Catholic Church itself, through the Jesuit line. It is alive today through liberation theology, although liberation theology fell out of vogue with the previous 2 popes.

    If criticism of the Catholic Church is to be meaningful, it has to start with being realistic and honest.

    We\'re never going to get anywhere, and we're never going to be able to convince Catholics to change if we dismiss every last whit of the Catholic Church as being evil and malicious.

    Another poster said something previously along the line of what would the Church know about culture? Mad stuff, people should look at what they're saying before they dive in with silly statements.


  • #394
    jimd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭jimd2


    greenpilot wrote: »
    Just heard this on RTE. Is this the last gasp of a dying church?

    Just to let people know, I have pm'd the moderators twice about this thread because it is total bullsh!t. Nothing done about it...

    I am not a frequenter of After Hours but I would have thought that there would be some sort of standards. And I see they closed a thread in which a few people were having a bit of a banter about a one night stand!


  • #395
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Comments like this make me think there is indeed no place for rational discussion in AH.

    Social Justice is a term that comes from the Catholic Church itself, through the Jesuit line. It is alive today through liberation theology, although liberation theology fell out of vogue with the previous 2 popes.

    If criticism of the Catholic Church is to be meaningful, it has to start with being realistic and honest.

    We\'re never going to get anywhere, and we're never going to be able to convince Catholics to change if we dismiss every last whit of the Catholic Church as being evil and malicious.

    Another poster said something previously along the line of what would the Church know about culture? Mad stuff, people should look at what they're saying before they dive in with silly statements.

    It's the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church that needs to change, not the Catholics themselves, except the ones who love and support the hierarchy which facilitated decades of abuse.

    Don't expect to be taken seriously when it offensive to most right thinking people that facilitators of paedophilia are your moral guides.


  • #396
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Just to let people know, I have pm'd the moderators twice about this thread because it is total bullsh!t. Nothing done about it...

    I am not a frequenter of After Hours but I would have thought that there would be some sort of standards. And I see they closed a thread in which a few people were having a bit of a banter about a one night stand!

    It's called freedom of speech. You're reading the harsh truths about the Roman Catholic church that you cannot face up to, or choose to ignore; the evil and deceitful hierarchy that runs this other great institution.


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  • #397
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    murraykil wrote: »
    It's the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church that needs to change, not the Catholics themselves, except the ones who love and support the hierarchy which facilitated decades of abuse.
    Totally agree.

    I've had constructive conversations with Catholics... including my parents... about criticisms of the Church.

    You don't establish a constructive dialogue by hammering everyone with clangers like "what would the Church know about social justice/ culture".

    There are better ways to bring people round to your way of thinking. Criticize, please, but don't completely alienate everyone willing to listen with militant catholic-bashing. I'm sure there are Catholics on AH who just zone out when this comes up. The debate is shoved out of the forum by the extremists on both sides.

    Again, not defending the RC Church, just my 2c.


  • #398
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,874 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Ancient Greece is a nice trip on the tourist trail, but it's long gong. It doesn't exist anymore. Ancient Greece (like Ancient Rome) is history that has been successfully appropriated by the Holy See.

    The Vatican is a living, breathing entity that has been around for thousands of years and is the spiritual home to 1.3 billion of the world's people.

    You should go to the Vatican museum some time and check out their collection of Greek artifacts.

    I've been there. And for what it's worth they have some nice stuff. It's also scary how much they have there. To be honest, I'm not one to think they should sell all the stuff they have. If they did, it would do some short term good, but they'd have nothing left and there's still be plenty of suffering in the world.

    But they do have a lot of money in the vatican bank. And that could be invested on more social organisations rather than the hedge funds it currently buys up.

    You should read some philosophy. The word philosophy means the search for wisdom. It's about asking questions and thinking it through in a rational way.


  • #399
    Ecce_Agnus_Dei
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 70 ✭✭Ecce_Agnus_Dei


    Can I ask AH inhabitants, what's your problem with the "hierarchy"?

    The "hierarchy" has been around for more than 2000 years. How long will your thoughts be around for?

    And nobody's forcing you to listen to the "hierarchy".


  • #400
    Smidge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Smidge


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Just to let people know, I have pm'd the moderators twice about this thread because it is total bullsh!t. Nothing done about it...

    I am not a frequenter of After Hours but I would have thought that there would be some sort of standards. And I see they closed a thread in which a few people were having a bit of a banter about a one night stand!

    Why do you want the thread closed?


  • #401
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Can I ask AH inhabitants, what's your problem with the "hierarchy"?

    Not sure if serious or if just recently back from touring a different galaxy.


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  • #402
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,188 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Can I ask AH inhabitants, what's your problem with the "hierarchy"?

    The "hierarchy" has been around for more than 2000 years. How long will your thoughts be around for?

    And nobody's forcing you to listen to the "hierarchy".
    That it contains filth like Sean Brady?

    The fact that child abuse was covered up by the church hierarchy, more interested in protecting the church than protecting the young victims.

    Would have thought that was obvious.

    Do you listen to what the likes of Brady says?


  • #403
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,188 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Comments like this make me think there is indeed no place for rational discussion in AH.

    Social Justice is a term that comes from the Catholic Church itself, through the Jesuit line. It is alive today through liberation theology, although liberation theology fell out of vogue with the previous 2 popes.

    If criticism of the Catholic Church is to be meaningful, it has to start with being realistic and honest.

    We\'re never going to get anywhere, and we're never going to be able to convince Catholics to change if we dismiss every last whit of the Catholic Church as being evil and malicious.

    Another poster said something previously along the line of what would the Church know about culture? Mad stuff, people should look at what they're saying before they dive in with silly statements.

    Well, the church has done a brilliant job of evading and hiding from any type of justice for all these years. I guess you have to know what something is in order to avoid it, so you may have a point.


  • #404
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Can I ask AH inhabitants, what's your problem with the "hierarchy"?

    The "hierarchy" has been around for more than 2000 years. How long will your thoughts be around for?

    And nobody's forcing you to listen to the "hierarchy".

    Eh, the "hierarchy" is forcing everyone to listen to it. If it didn't do that we would've have half of the amount if problems we have now. That's the point.


  • #405
    Ecce_Agnus_Dei
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 70 ✭✭Ecce_Agnus_Dei


    Grayson wrote: »
    ]
    You should read some philosophy. The word philosophy means the search for wisdom. It's about asking questions and thinking it through in a rational way.

    Do you think the church aren't aware of philosophy?

    Do you think it's practical for all the faithful to be experts in philosophy?

    When you say I "should read some philosophy", who would you recommend?


  • #406
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Can I ask AH inhabitants, what's your problem with the "hierarchy"?
    I bet it could be summed up in one word: Trust.

    The Catholic hierarchy have given Catholics plenty of reasons not to trust them.

    Why are you so determined to publicly show your support for the Hierarchy? Don't you feel they have damaged their trust-worthiness?


  • #407
    Ecce_Agnus_Dei
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 70 ✭✭Ecce_Agnus_Dei


    1ZRed wrote: »
    Eh, the "hierarchy" is forcing everyone to listen to it. If it didn't do that we would've have half of the amount if problems we have now. That's the point.

    What are you smoking?


  • #408
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Totally agree.

    I've had constructive conversations with Catholics... including my parents... about criticisms of the Church.

    You don't establish a constructive dialogue by hammering everyone with clangers like "what would the Church know about social justice/ culture".

    There are better ways to bring people round to your way of thinking. Criticize, please, but don't completely alienate everyone willing to listen with militant catholic-bashing. I'm sure there are Catholics on AH who just zone out when this comes up. The debate is shoved out of the forum by the extremists on both sides.

    Again, not defending the RC Church, just my 2c.

    I have not been hammering as you described. The statements made by the hierarchy of Roman Catholic church will, and should never again be taken seriously while they are being made by the likes of Brady.

    You should not expect rational debate when one side is debating the view of or a message relayed by a man like Brady.

    Regardless of the content of the message, they should not be listened to while they still allow a person such as him remain in such a position and be their messenger.


  • #409
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    murraykil wrote: »
    I have not been hammering as you described. The statements made by the hierarchy of Roman Catholic church will, and should never again be taken seriously while they are being made by the likes of Brady.
    Yes I agree. I think every time he speaks out on morality and yet remains a Cardinal, the Catholic Church shoots itself in the foot.

    But people have to learn to pick their fights.

    If you (not necessarily you, I'm talking about people in general) go in all guns blazing, criticizing every last particle of Catholicism, denying that there are very good Catholic lay people and religious, then nobody who is Catholic or open to a rational discussion is likely to listen.

    So far, I think this thread has been dominated by extremism. There is an interesting debate to be had if we all calmed down.


  • #410
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    What are you smoking?

    Very selective replying there!


  • #411
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,188 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    I bet it could be summed up in one word: Trust.

    The Catholic hierarchy have given Catholics plenty of reasons not to trust them.

    Why are you so determined to publicly show your support for the Hierarchy? Don't you feel they have damaged their trust-worthiness?

    If I were a church going Catholic I would be absolutely livid and disgusted with the hierarchy that has completely destroyed the credibility of the church in this country.

    The only way to rebuild that credibility is to get rid of the bad eggs, to have a full investigation and stop protecting certain individuals in order to save face.


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  • #412
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    What are you smoking?

    The church seems to have a nasty habit of making it's stance known on civil, non religious issues and always seems to kick up a fuss and have their day when it's not wanted and when it's got nothing to do with them.

    That's how they force their views on the rest of us, even if we don't follow the religion at all.


  • #413
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Yes I agree. I think every time he speaks out on morality and yet remains a Cardinal, the Catholic Church shoots itself in the foot.

    But people have to learn to pick their fights.

    If you (not necessarily you, I'm talking about people in general) go in all guns blazing, criticizing every last particle of Catholicism, denying that there are very good Catholic lay people and religious, then nobody who is Catholic or open to a rational discussion is likely to listen.

    So far, I think this thread has been dominated by extremism. There is an interesting debate to be had if we all calmed down.

    Yes it's true that lots slam the church in it's entirety. I think when you see some lay members who will defend the hierarchy regardless of any wrong they may have done, then it's to be expected that people will get angry and often make such remarks as slamming the whole church.


  • #414
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,874 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Do you think the church aren't aware of philosophy?

    Do you think it's practical for all the faithful to be experts in philosophy?

    When you say I "should read some philosophy", who would you recommend?

    Start with the basics. Plato. He's quite entertaining.

    Then move onto other religious thinkers like Descartes, Kierkegaard & Hegel. Descartes and Kierkegaard are easy to read. Hegel is a bit heavy going.

    But if you're looking for a primer, start with sophies world. It's a nice little story about a girl getting philosophy lessons. It'll give you a brief introduction to loads of stuff.


  • #415
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    Ancient Greece is a nice trip on the tourist trail, but it's long gong. It doesn't exist anymore. Ancient Greece (like Ancient Rome) is history that has been successfully appropriated by the Holy See.

    The Vatican is a living, breathing entity that has been around for thousands of years and is the spiritual home to 1.3 billion of the world's people.

    You should go to the Vatican museum some time and check out their collection of Greek artifacts.

    And I, indeed am one of those 1.3 billion despite not setting foot inside a church of my own accord in 23 years and being atheist for 20 .they may need to revise those figures


  • #416
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,874 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Ecce_Agnus_Dei wrote: »
    What are you smoking?

    To be fair, objecting to the mother and child scheme in the 60's was one of the more shameful actions of the church in Ireland. It was a scheme to give all mothers and all children free health care. That's not even vaguely religious and can only be seen as good. But the church objected because they considered it communist.

    Likewise they supported many horrible people in the name of stopping communism.


  • #417
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    Grayson wrote: »
    To be fair, objecting to the mother and child scheme in the 60's was one of the more shameful actions of the church in Ireland. It was a scheme to give all mothers and all children free health care. That's not even vaguely religious and can only be seen as good. But the church objected because they considered it communist.

    Likewise they supported many horrible people in the name of stopping communism.

    It's most likely that they has ulterior here where they wanted to create more reliance on church run institutions, such as more mothers being unable to support themselves and their children thus needing the help of the laundries.

    Once they have this grasp they can indoctrine 24/7 and get the kids while they are young.

    Sick when you think about it, when they knew what they would face! :mad:


  • #418
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,859 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    murraykil wrote: »
    For so many, for so long, it's the Roman Catholic church who were the cause of their "most difficult of times".

    I firmly believe that all these loyal Catholics who still respect, listen to, and love the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church would stomp all over each other if they were tested at the pearly gates by being told there was room for only one more.

    Those that still respect, listen to, and love the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church only care about self-preservation and their own salvation. Fuk whoever get trampled on on or who gets hurts along the way.

    It disgusts me that such people call themselves Christian. :mad:
    It would be nothing compared to the stampede of aethists if they were convinced it was the real deal;)


  • #419
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,859 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    murraykil wrote: »
    It's most likely that they has ulterior here where they wanted to create more reliance on church run institutions, such as more mothers being unable to support themselves and their children thus needing the help of the laundries.

    Once they have this grasp they can indoctrine 24/7 and get the kids while they are young.

    Sick when you think about it, when they knew what they would face! :mad:
    Whats really sick is that a great number of these young women were placed in these institutions on the consent of their own families.

    As far as the families were concerned it was either the laundries or the gutter.


  • #420
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    jimd2 wrote: »
    Just to let people know, I have pm'd the moderators twice about this thread because it is total bullsh!t. Nothing done about it...

    I am not a frequenter of After Hours but I would have thought that there would be some sort of standards. And I see they closed a thread in which a few people were having a bit of a banter about a one night stand!

    boo hoo


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  • #421
    murraykil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 460 ✭✭murraykil


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Whats really sick is that a great number of these young women were placed in these institutions on the consent of their own families.

    As far as the families were concerned it was either the laundries or the gutter.

    I think what the clergy did was really sick also, but each to their own. :rolleyes:


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