Vietnam

DEFTLEFTHAND · 04-05-2013 4:21pm #1

I was just watching a doc on the Vietnam War and it's scary to see what these guys went through, one 21 year old man (on camera) actually called out for his Mom as his comrades tried to sooth him into death. His injuries were horrific. Another US guy stated that he felt his side were far more brutal than the Vietcong, some terrible atrocities were carried out over there by the US.

Why were they in there, what was it worth in the end? It destroyed the lives of many young men. Those who survived are the most scarred.

corktina · 04-05-2013 4:28pm

Yep war does that, I expect you could get all the answers you need from Google

Susie120704 · 04-05-2013 4:28pm

Definitely not worth it in the end as the Americans had to withdraw. In 1968 there were 500,000 American soldiers out there. The was cost the Americans 30 billion dollars and 30,000 lives not to mention the hundreds of thousands who came back seriously injured. They came back to a poor welcome as well as many Americans came to realise the war was not theirs to be involved in.
Basically the Americans had unwittingly become embroiled in a civil war and could never have won.

DazMarz · 04-05-2013 4:29pm

It was worth it alone for all the brilliant films that have come out of it.

Susie120704 · 04-05-2013 4:31pm

DazMarz wrote: »

It was worth it alone for all the brilliant films that have come out of it.

Do you not feel that is a very flippant comment for a war that killed 1.5 million Vietnamese and 30,000 American soldiers?

kraggy · 04-05-2013 4:32pm

The effects can still be seen with children being born to this day with deformities due to the Agent Orange that was spread by the Americans.

Lumbo · 04-05-2013 4:35pm

I was in Vietnam a few year ago. It's a really beautiful country.

They still love the fact that they killed a lot of Americans (as well as Aussies, Kiwi's, Koreans and Thai's).

The Cu Chi tunnels and Hoa Lo prison were some of the most fascinating, informative and horrifying places I've ever been to.

NuckingFacker · 04-05-2013 4:36pm

It was hell, you'll never understand though, unless you were there.

No, me either.

mosstin · 04-05-2013 4:38pm

DazMarz wrote: »

It was worth it alone for all the brilliant films that have come out of it.

And the prize for the dumbest post of the year goes to....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-05-2013 4:38pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was just watching a doc on the Vietnam War and it's scary to see what these guys went through, one 21 year old man (on camera) actually called out for his Mom as his comrades tried to sooth him into death. His injuries were horrific. Another US guy stated that he felt his side were far more brutal than the Vietcong, some terrible atrocities were carried out over there by the US.

Why were they in there, what was it worth in the end? It destroyed the lives of many young men. Those who survived are the most scarred.

... not to mention more or less compeltely ignored and abandoned by the country they fought for.

Dyr · 04-05-2013 4:38pm

DazMarz wrote: »

It was worth it alone for all the brilliant films that have come out of it.

imagine how many films they'd have made if they'd actually won the ****ing thing

Jimminy Mc Fukhead · 04-05-2013 4:39pm

Yeah, a part of me is still out there in that jungle.

The Generals did the ordering. We did the dying.

gurramok · 04-05-2013 4:42pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Do you not feel that is a very flippant comment for a war that killed 1.5 million Vietnamese and 30,000 American soldiers?

Hate to be a pedant but it was about 58,000 American dead.

Average age of a serving US soldier?

Answer: 19

Falthyron · 04-05-2013 4:43pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why were they in there, what was it worth in the end?

They were there to prevent the spread of communism throughout south east Asia. Same purpose NATO was stationed in West Germany for so long, and the Truman Doctrine being created, etc, etc.

Hope this helps.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 04-05-2013 4:43pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... not to mention more or less compeltely ignored and abandoned by the country they fought for.

That's right, the Nam vets were treated terribly when they came home, they were seen as losers, the one thing that America hates. Insults such as baby killers were thrown at some. A scary amount of them committed suicide in the years after the end.

Rented Mule · 04-05-2013 4:43pm

I had two uncles that fought in Vietnam. They were drafted just after their 18th birthdays and were both in Vietnam before they turned 19. Neither one of them were ever the same after their experiences.

One was MIA for six month. He was shot in combat and as he was being evaced, the helicopter was hit with a mortar. The helicopter blade sliced off the top of his head. He was found after a pretty exhaustive search at a hospital in Tokyo. He had no idea who he was or what had happened to him.

My other uncle was a 'tunnel rat'. He was sent into the Viet Cong underground tunnels with a 'flashlight and a .45'. He came home and would sleep under his bed. He would wake up in the night screaming covered in sweat. He would never go into details, but said that he was 'ashamed' at some of the things they did to stay alive.

Politicians like to start wars. It's 'kids' who end up doing the fighting and dying.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 04-05-2013 4:45pm

Falthyron wrote: »

They were there to prevent the spread of communism throughout south east Asia. Same purpose NATO was stationed in West Germany for so long, and the Truman Doctrine being created, etc, etc.

Hope this helps.

I know that, it was a rhetorical question.

Stinicker · 04-05-2013 4:48pm

The North Vietnamese to their credit did everything it took to eject the American troops and they lost 1/4 of their population in the bloody war, The Vietnam war was not a war but a war crime committed by the United States in the name of corporate greed.

mattjack · 04-05-2013 4:49pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Definitely not worth it in the end as the Americans had to withdraw. In 1968 there were 500,000 American soldiers out there. The was cost the Americans 30 billion dollars and 30,000 lives not to mention the hundreds of thousands who came back seriously injured. They came back to a poor welcome as well as many Americans came to realise the war was not theirs to be involved in.
Basically the Americans had unwittingly become embroiled in a civil war and could never have won.

Somebodys telling porkies here , cause the Mericans say they lost bout 58,000
soldiers....

belcampprisoner · 04-05-2013 4:53pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqPzS8Y27Ks

DazMarz · 04-05-2013 4:57pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Do you not feel that is a very flippant comment for a war that killed 1.5 million Vietnamese and 30,000 American soldiers?

mosstin wrote: »

And the prize for the dumbest post of the year goes to....

This is After Hours. It was meant to be tongue in cheek.

Susie120704 · 04-05-2013 5:09pm

mattjack wrote: »

Somebodys telling porkies here , cause the Mericans say they lost bout 58,000
soldiers....

Depends on the sources you read. Figures I teach would be 30,000 for Vietnam and 50,000 for Korea, the other containment war of the era.

gurramok · 04-05-2013 5:15pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Depends on the sources you read. Figures I teach would be 30,000 for Vietnam and 50,000 for Korea, the other containment war of the era.

The American National Archives say 58,000 US soldiers dead.http://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html

Duckworth_Luas · 04-05-2013 5:15pm

gurramok wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but it was about 58,000 American dead.

Average age of a serving US soldier?

Answer: 19

Actually it was ne-ne-ne-ne-nineteen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcFFEjq5Ap8

Weevil · 04-05-2013 5:18pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Do you not feel that is a very flippant comment for a war that killed 1.5 million Vietnamese and 30,000 American soldiers?

The OP reflects the American obsession with " 'Nam" in a way that Hollywood also does.

Hootanany · 04-05-2013 5:23pm

gurramok wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but it was about 58,000 American dead.

Average age of a serving US soldier?

Answer: 19

Sorry NNNNNN 19

Susie120704 · 04-05-2013 5:23pm

gurramok wrote: »

The American National Archives say 58,000 US soldiers dead.http://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html

You are indeed correct. Just checked my textbook. Apologies. I suffer from discalcia and frequently get numbers wrong. Luckily students are warned never to take figures directly from me

mattjack · 04-05-2013 5:24pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Depends on the sources you read. Figures I teach would be 30,000 for Vietnam and 50,000 for Korea, the other containment war of the era.

Show us where you get your information , the figure thrown around for Korea is about 33,000 and there's a big a wall with 58000 names engraved on it for Vietnam era dead.

The Barefoot Pizza Thief · 04-05-2013 5:35pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jY6EPf5MHQ

discus · 04-05-2013 5:40pm

Rented Mule wrote: »

Politicians like to start wars. It's 'kids' who end up doing the fighting and dying.

Children taken in as conscripts - that is practically a war crime for cases such as 'nam.

Dyr · 04-05-2013 6:10pm

gurramok wrote: »

Hate to be a pedant but it was about 58,000 American dead.

Average age of a serving US soldier?

Answer: 19

Average age of a combat soldier. More attention to lyrics required

holystungun9 · 04-05-2013 6:16pm

OP has clearly never been in Supermacs at 2 A.M. on a bank holiday. Now that's shocking.

Aidric · 04-05-2013 6:22pm

Stinicker wrote: »

The Vietnam war was not a war but a war crime committed by the United States in the name of corporate greed.

Did you watch or read 'The Trial of Henry Kissinger' by Christopher Hitchens? Touches on these issues.

humbert · 04-05-2013 6:27pm

Susie120704 wrote: »

Do you not feel that is a very flippant comment for a war that killed 1.5 million Vietnamese and 30,000 American soldiers?

mosstin wrote: »

And the prize for the dumbest post of the year goes to....

I love the smell of righteous indignation in the morning.

Chuck Stone · 04-05-2013 6:34pm

One of the principle reasons for US intervention was about western interests (state Capitalism) ensuring by all means necessary that an alternative model of development, that was supported by a strongly Nationalist 80% of the population of Vietnam, should fail.

The Vietnamese were sick of being a colony and just wanted the French and US to fuck off home.

Cork boy 55 · 04-05-2013 6:40pm

A series of campaigns of brutal aggressive totalitarian wars* and democides
(1945-ongoing)against the people of Indochina waged by the communists and all funded by the USSR and Red China.
It is mixed in with six wars spanning 43 years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War), one of them involving the United States; a near twenty-one year formal division of the country into two sovereign North and South parts; the full communization of the North; occupation of neighboring countries by both North and South; defeat, absorption, and communization of the South; and the massive flight by sea of Vietnamese. As best as can be determined, through all this close to 3,800,000 Vietnamese lost their lives from political violence, or near one out of every ten men, women, and children. Of these, about 1,250,000, or near a third of those killed, were murdered.

All this democide and bloodshed in the name of totalitarian communism .

Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

*There where six wars

Chuck Stone · 04-05-2013 6:45pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

A series of campaigns of brutal aggressive totalitarian wars* and democides (1945-ongoing)against the people of Indochina waged by the communists and all funded by the USSR and Red China.

It is mixed in with six wars spanning 43 years (the Indochina War, Vietnam War, Cambodian War, subsequent guerrilla war in Cambodia, guerrilla war in Laos, and Sino-Vietnamese War), one of them involving the United States; a near twenty-one year formal division of the country into two sovereign North and South parts; the full communization of the North; occupation of neighboring countries by both North and South; defeat, absorption, and communization of the South; and the massive flight by sea of Vietnamese. As best as can be determined, through all this close to 3,800,000 Vietnamese lost their lives from political violence, or near one out of every ten men, women, and children. Of these, about 1,250,000, or near a third of those killed, were murdered.

All this democide and bloodshed in the name of totalitarian communism .

Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

*There where six wars

US/Western/Capitalist propaganda.

Son Of A Vidic · 04-05-2013 6:50pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why were they in there

In was just part of the global chessboard manoeuvring, that was the Cold War. America had it's revenge later, when it turned Afghanistan into Russia's Vietnam. Unfortuntaely though, they aided and turned a blind eye to the more jihadist members of the Mujahideen. Which also included a certain Mr. Bin Laden of course.

Mr Tibbs · 04-05-2013 7:07pm

I visited the Memorial Wall made from black marble in Washington DC and to see so many peope there going through the names trying to find their loved one among the 58,000 names is a very sad sight to see and only highlighted to me the futility of war. It seems the American government doesn't share my views when you think about Iraq and Afghanistan and all the other little escapades in between these wars that they have been involved in. It is esimated that up to a million Vietnamese were killed, wouldn't that make some wall with all those names inscribed on it.
We than went to see The White House and to see all the vets from Vietnam still protesting just across the road in the park in the front is a bit of a shock. They have their little tents decorated with momento's of their fallen comrade's and they shout abuse all day long. I suspect some of these poor fellows are not all that right in the head but it is still an eye opener. They are gradually being joined by vets from the other wars who are also very disgruntled. I can understand The White House being a tourist atraction but so are these sites along with Arlington Cemetery.

Chuck Stone · 04-05-2013 7:16pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

In was just part of the global chessboard manoeuvring, that was the Cold War.

This presumes there were two monoliths moving the pieces on the board i.e. Moscow and Washington, which is wrong, and breaks all post WWII conflicts down to justifying all interventions by the west as simply a virtuous containment of evil Communism's plan for world domination.. which is bollocks.

admiralofthefleet · 04-05-2013 7:26pm

america should have been done for war crimes over their use of chemical weapons in vietnam.

Riddle101 · 04-05-2013 7:35pm

I feel sorry for Vietnam's history. The Chinese ruled Vietnam for hundreds of years, then the French ruled them for another hundred years or so, the Japanese occupied them during WWII, and of course you have France trying to take back control and America and the Vietnam war. It just goes to show you how evil the world can be. Conquest, Power and Greed drives humanity to do terrible things. In WWII France was occupied by Germany, you'd think France would have learned what it felt like, and maybe see things from Vietnam's perspective, but no when the war was over they tried to take control again. It's because of this that I only see grey during WWII. There was no good or bad side, they're all the same.

My name is URL · 04-05-2013 7:37pm

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

america should have been done for war crimes over their use of chemical weapons in vietnam.

100's of people (mainly in Laos) are still killed each year as a direct result of the actions of the US during the war. The country is littered with unexploded ordnance. It's the most heavily bombed place in history.

Can you imagine if that many people were killed each year in say, Germany.. by unexploded US bombs? They would have been dragged before the international criminal court decades ago.

The whole episode is one of the most shameful in US history.

05-05-2013 3:28am

Just two and a half weeks ago, two more 10yr old students killed by a bomb..
http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20130416-2-students-killed-in-bomb-blast-in-vietnam.aspx

Publicly, Vietnamese people are accepting of the Americans and French.. Indoors and especially when drunk, their hate for them is pretty incredible.

StewartGriffin · 05-05-2013 3:40am

DazMarz wrote: »

It was worth it alone for all the brilliant films that have come out of it.

mosstin wrote: »

And the prize for the dumbest post of the year goes to....

Yet, there is a certain human truth to it

If these wars were forgotten then all the lessons would never be learned.

See how the youth today re so peaceable and...

Oh wait..

05-05-2013 3:45am

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Communism has been the greatest social engineering experiment we have ever seen. It failed utterly and in doing so it killed over 100,000,000 men, women, and children, not to mention the near 30,000,000 of its subjects that died in its often aggressive wars and the rebellions it provoked. But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

Can you breakdown the figures a bit? Seems like a high number.

thunderdog · 05-05-2013 4:27am

Spare a thought for this guy

http://www.thejournal.ie/missing-vietnam-vet-found-john-robertson-885986-Apr2013/

stefan idiot jones · 05-05-2013 4:44am

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

I visited the Memorial Wall made from black marble in Washington DC and to see so many peope there going through the names trying to find their loved one among the 58,000 names is a very sad sight to see and only highlighted to me the futility of war. It seems the American government doesn't share my views when you think about Iraq and Afghanistan and all the other little escapades in between these wars that they have been involved in. It is esimated that up to a million Vietnamese were killed, wouldn't that make some wall with all those names inscribed on it.
We than went to see The White House and to see all the vets from Vietnam still protesting just across the road in the park in the front is a bit of a shock. They have their little tents decorated with momento's of their fallen comrade's and they shout abuse all day long. I suspect some of these poor fellows are not all that right in the head but it is still an eye opener. They are gradually being joined by vets from the other wars who are also very disgruntled. I can understand The White House being a tourist atraction but so are these sites along with Arlington Cemetery.

I was there myself and it's a bit scary to see all those names on the wall. There is so many names that there is a book like the telephone directory at either end for you to locate the panel that has the person you are looking for on.

Ruudi_Mentari · 05-05-2013 5:06am

mattjack wrote: »

Somebodys telling porkies here ,

I came to my senses.

I realized I killed the entire VC squad singlehanded. There was blood... and chunks of yellow flesh clinging to my bayonet. To this day, I don't remember...

buckshotbrolan · 05-05-2013 8:49am

Riddle101 wrote: »

I feel sorry for Vietnam's history. The Chinese ruled Vietnam for hundreds of years, then the French ruled them for another hundred years or so, the Japanese occupied them during WWII, and of course you have France trying to take back control and America and the Vietnam war. It just goes to show you how evil the world can be. Conquest, Power and Greed drives humanity to do terrible things. In WWII France was occupied by Germany, you'd think France would have learned what it felt like, and maybe see things from Vietnam's perspective, but no when the war was over they tried to take control again. It's because of this that I only see grey during WWII. There was no good or bad side, they're all the same.

Not many people know that the English had control of Vietnam during 1945 ( Yalta agreement).
Then the Brittish yielded to the french in 1946.
Control of the opium trade had a lot to do with this debacle..

Capt'n Midnight · 05-05-2013 10:43am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I was just watching a doc on the Vietnam War and it's scary to see what these guys went through, one 21 year old man (on camera) actually called out for his Mom as his comrades tried to sooth him into death. His injuries were horrific. Another US guy stated that he felt his side were far more brutal than the Vietcong, some terrible atrocities were carried out over there by the US.

Why were they in there, what was it worth in the end? It destroyed the lives of many young men. Those who survived are the most scarred.

Until you understand that US deaths were as little as 1.5% of the total killed during the war you just don't get the true horror of that war for the locals.

US fatalities 58,282, Total deaths including neighbouring countries up to 3,886,026 depending on who you believe

Vietnam

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