Garda drives ambulance/injured child to hospital

Boombastic · 03-05-2013 12:25PM

seven_eleven wrote: »

Huge amount of ignorance in this thread.

I said it before, but I think if you actually knew, just how understaffed the ambulance service in this country is, and just how many ambulances are available for YOUR COUNTY, and YOUR CITY, you would be VERY concerned.

I'm nearly willing to bet that was all of meath's on duty ambulances, and even at that I bet one ambulance was brought from another county or Dublin.

That's because there is a lot of them at home in bed 'sick'.

SB2013 · 03-05-2013 02:40PM

Cedrus wrote: »

Are you being serious???

That's a shop stewards strawman if ever I saw one, the HSE and the Dept of Health have identified absenteeism as a serious problem over a number of years, it is far in excess of any industry norms and while of course there will be a proportion of occupational illnesses, the excessive figures cannot be directly attributed to the sick people. As I recall, the highest absenteeism rates are not even in the direct healthcare professions but the support roles such as e.g. drivers and porters.

So you don't think working with sick people in a germ rampant environment would explin high sick rates?

Potential-Monke · 03-05-2013 05:39PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Gardai don't need a licence of any class.

Lies. You need a licence to drive any vehicle in the Public Service. Those with no licences or a provisional licence/learner permit are not allowed to drive state vehicles.

Within AGS, you need the relevant licence to drive the relevant vehicle. yes, there are laws that are there that allow a Garda to drive in emergency situations, but if there was an accident you can be sure that the state would not pay out (should there be injuries to the members) due to the member not having the correct licence.

It's a case of "drive it if you need to, but don't expect us to back you up if something happens".

For Paws · 03-05-2013 05:50PM

awec wrote: »

They are making the wrong cuts in the public sector.

They need to get rid of the suits, not paramedics or guards or emergency services front line staff in general.

The pointless upper and middle managers, administrators etc should be the ones seeing the cuts first.

Does anyone have any statistics relating to absenteeism amongst upper and middle management & administrators in the public sector ?

For Paws · 03-05-2013 06:04PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Lies. You need a licence to drive any vehicle in the Public Service. Those with no licences or a provisional licence/learner permit are not allowed to drive state vehicles.

Within AGS, you need the relevant licence to drive the relevant vehicle. yes, there are laws that are there that allow a Garda to drive in emergency situations, but if there was an accident you can be sure that the state would not pay out (should there be injuries to the members) due to the member not having the correct licence.

It's a case of "drive it if you need to, but don't expect us to back you up if something happens".

A member of An Garda Siochana may drive any vehicle, without holding the relevant Licence, as long as he/she does so with the permission of their Garda Superintendent, and the vehicle is being driven in the course of their duties.

In 2008 / 2009 concerns about the number of 'squad' cars being driven by members of the Gardai who did not hold the relevant Licence or had not passed training in the driving of those vehicles were voiced in the media.

The Gardai were said to be re-assessing the situation

RustyNut · 03-05-2013 06:06PM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Lies. You need a licence to drive any vehicle in the Public Service.

Offensive and wrong.

Prohibition on driving without driving licence.

38.—(1) A person shall not drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place unless he holds a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(2) (a) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) In a prosecution for an offence under this subsection, it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that he did not, at the time he drove the vehicle, hold a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(3) The owner of a mechanically propelled vehicle shall not employ a person to drive the vehicle in a public place unless the person holds a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(4) (a) A person who contravenes subsection (3) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) In a prosecution for an offence under this subsection, it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that the person employed to drive the vehicle did not, at the time he drove the vehicle, hold a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(5) A person—

(a) who is summarily convicted of the offence of contravening subsection (1) of this section and was at the time he committed the offence—

(i) disqualified for holding a driving licence, or

(ii) a person required to produce a certificate of competency or a certificate of fitness before obtaining a driving licence, or

(b) who is summarily convicted of the offence of contravening subsection (3) of this section in a case in which the person employed to drive the vehicle was at the time he drove the vehicle—

(i) disqualified for holding a driving licence, or

(ii) a person required to produce a certificate of competency or a certificate of fitness before obtaining a driving licence,

shall be liable to the following punishment in lieu of the punishment mentioned in section 102 of this Act, that is to say, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

(6) Subsections (1) to (5) of this section shall not apply in relation to a member of the Garda Síochána driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in the course of his duty.

(7) Pedestrian-controlled vehicles which are specified for the purposes of this subsection by the Minister by regulations and which comply with the conditions stated in the regulations are hereby excepted from subsections (1) to (5) of this section and sections 40 and 41 of this Act.

For Paws · 03-05-2013 06:10PM

Chinasea wrote: »

Has anybody mentioned that the ambulance service is used by medical card holders (NOT ALL OF COURSE) as a free taxi ride to and from hospitals.

Yes.

You did.

The 'ambulance services' contains both 'Emergency Transport' and
routine 'Patient Transport' services. The various bodies, usually Local Authorities, who control Ambulance usage routinely authorise the use of ambulances for transporting GMS card holders, and non-GMS card holders. The vast majority of routine Patient Transports is carried out by the Local Authority paying private Taxi services.

Cedrus · 03-05-2013 08:05PM

SB2013 wrote: »

So you don't think working with sick people in a germ rampant environment would explin high sick rates?

No.

Why would it? Most people working in the health services do not work "with sick people in a germ rampant environment".

The days when it was normal to get sick at work are long gone. For the most part, employers take their responsibilities seriously now.

The most dangerous industries are still agriculture and construction and they do not see a fraction of the absenteeism that the public health service sees.

Grayson · 03-05-2013 08:14PM

Cedrus wrote: »

No.

Why would it? Most people working in the health services do not work "with sick people in a germ rampant environment".

The days when it was normal to get sick at work are long gone. For the most part, employers take their responsibilities seriously now.

The most dangerous industries are still agriculture and construction and they do not see a fraction of the absenteeism that the public health service sees.

I know a number of paramedics. All of them got the winter vomiting bug. Two of them got it twice last year.

As for the rest of the public service, I can't say. But I know paramedics are generally hard working conscientious individuals.

I do know that there are large parts of rural ireland that are only serviced by an ambulance or two. Generally that's all that's needed. But if you're in the back end of clare or kerry and something happens, and the only ambulance is already on a call, you'll have to wait for one to come from another base. And that could take another couple of hours.

Grayson · 03-05-2013 08:17PM

kraggy wrote: »

Perhaps the real issue is that there weren't enough staff on if the safety of the public is put at risk because ONE member of staff had to home sick. Perhaps this is because of lack of staff in that region.

Anyway, my original anger was directed at the poster who suggested the Garda would claim a litany of expenses/compensatory sums for driving the ambulance when that clearly isn't the issue at hand.

What would have happened had there been a bigger incident involving more injuried parties?

It's also lack of ambulances. Most ambulances run 24/7. As soon as one crew comes in, another take the same ambulance and leaves. The whole service needs more money invested.

Potential-Monke · 03-05-2013 08:25PM

RustyNut wrote: »

(6) Subsections (1) to (5) of this section shall not apply in relation to a member of the Garda Síochána driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in the course of his duty.

I would, rightfully, argue that driving an ambulance is not "course of his duty". We're expected to do a lot of things, but driving an ambulance is something i wouldn't expect any member to do without the relevant licence category, and even then i would be slow to do it. Without the proper course done, we're not allowed to drive the Transit/Ducatos, so i seriously doubt the same members would be allowed to drive an Ambulance.

As i said above, it's all well and good to have that law until something happens, and when it does management will not stand behind you.

goat2 · 03-05-2013 08:25PM

Grayson wrote: »

It's also lack of ambulances. Most ambulances run 24/7. As soon as one crew comes in, another take the same ambulance and leaves. The whole service needs more money invested.

a crew is two, one driving, the other taking care of patient,
i was taken with a suspected heart attack a few yrs back, there was one with me in back taking note of readout on machines and having a machine on standby in case i needed shock to restart heart if it stopped,

then what happens in the case of only one crew member coming to work, he cannot be driving and taking care of patient at same time,
are we short of crews or relief paramedics,

orestes · 03-05-2013 08:38PM

goat2 wrote: »

a crew is two, one driving, the other taking care of patient,
i was taken with a suspected heart attack a few yrs back, there was one with me in back taking note of readout on machines and having a machine on standby in case i needed shock to restart heart if it stopped,

then what happens in the case of only one crew member coming to work, he cannot be driving and taking care of patient at same time,
are we short of crews or relief paramedics,

They're paramedics, they aren't exactly thinking "I can't go in, shur Mike can handle it himself". If somebody can't make it in then somebody else replaces them, and if that means someone doing a double shift then somebody will do a double shift or volunteers being called in (some areas in the country are only covered by volunteers at certain times since there is generally no need for a full time emergency services coverage).

One person will not be sent out completely on their own because it's not safe for them or the person who needs their attention, the only reason it would happen is if extra people are needed for an incident like this one where there are already others at the site of the incident. The ambulance with one paramedic in it was an extra ambulance for a busy situation, not an ambulance with one paramedic that was on call.

Expecting enough paramedics to be on call in all areas for every possible situation, just in case there is a massive incident, would require hundreds of paramedics and ambulances to be available at all times, which would cost the state a fortune in unnecessary wages.

Paulzx · 03-05-2013 08:46PM

orestes wrote: »

They're paramedics, they aren't exactly thinking "I can't go in, shur Mike can handle it himself". If somebody can't make it in then somebody else replaces them, and if that means someone doing a double shift then somebody will do a double shift or volunteers being called in (some areas in the country are only covered by volunteers at certain times since there is generally no need for a full time emergency services coverage).

One person will not be sent out completely on their own because it's not safe for them or the person who needs their attention, the only reason it would happen is if extra people are needed for an incident like this one where there are already others at the site of the incident. The ambulance with one paramedic in it was an extra ambulance for a busy situation, not an ambulance with one paramedic that was on call.

.

Ehhh.....i think you'll find this is happening more often now. It doesn't need to be a large unforseen incident as you describe

http://donegalnews.com/2012/11/mother-forced-to-take-child-to-hospital-as-no-ambulance-driver-available/

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2013/03/27/garda-had-to-drive-ambulance-due-to-staff-shortage-councillor/

Staff are not being replaced. There seems to be no provision when a shortage occurs.

orestes · 03-05-2013 08:58PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Ehhh.....i think you'll find this is happening more often now. It doesn't need to be a large unforseen incident as you describe

http://donegalnews.com/2012/11/mother-forced-to-take-child-to-hospital-as-no-ambulance-driver-available/

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2013/03/27/garda-had-to-drive-ambulance-due-to-staff-shortage-councillor/

Staff are not being replaced. There seems to be no provision when a shortage occurs.

According to the HSE a second ambulance was en-route to the site in the first incident when the first paramedic arrived on his own and made the decision to ask the mother to drive them to the hospital. So, the paramedic was not on duty alone and his was not the only ambulance called to the scene. That information is actually in the report you linked to in your second link by the way.

The second report is about an incident that was only brought up by a councillor 5 months after it happen and the HSE is investigating, so the circumstances aren't known yet.

Paulzx · 03-05-2013 10:42PM

orestes wrote: »

According to the HSE a second ambulance was en-route to the site in the first incident when the first paramedic arrived on his own and made the decision to ask the mother to drive them to the hospital. So, the paramedic was not on duty alone and his was not the only ambulance called to the scene. That information is actually in the report you linked to in your second link by the way.

The second report is about an incident that was only brought up by a councillor 5 months after it happen and the HSE is investigating, so the circumstances aren't known yet.

In both cases a paramedic responded in an ambulance on their own. Its irrelevant whether another ambulance was en route from a further location. An ambulance is a vehicle designed to be crewed by two people. The reason there was only one is because of staff shortages and funding issues. Crew members should not be in a position where they are responding in an ambulance on their own.

A rapid response vehicle is designed as a single crewed vehicle, an ambulance is not. You cannot transport a patient with one crew member.

orestes · 03-05-2013 11:19PM

Paulzx wrote: »

In both cases a paramedic responded in an ambulance on their own. Its irrelevant whether another ambulance was en route from a further location. An ambulance is a vehicle designed to be crewed by two people. The reason there was only one is because of staff shortages and funding issues. Crew members should not be in a position where they are responding in an ambulance on their own.

A rapid response vehicle is designed as a single crewed vehicle, an ambulance is not. You cannot transport a patient with one crew member.

No, the reason there was only one member of staff is because someone called in sick, and the ambulance with only a single member of staff only responded with another ambulance. I would hardly consider it irrelevant, it means that there were two ambulances and three paramedics responding to the call.

Paulzx · 03-05-2013 11:38PM

orestes wrote: »

No, the reason there was only one member of staff is because someone called in sick,.

correct........and due to cutbacks the sick crew member is not replaced with the consequences that ambulances are responding with one crew member.

If you can't see a problem with this you have absolutely no idea how pre hospital emergency care works.

orestes · 03-05-2013 11:48PM

Paulzx wrote: »

correct........and due to cutbacks the sick crew member is not replaced with the consequences that ambulances are responding with one crew member.

How do you know that this had anything to do with cutbacks? For all we know the person replacing the sickie was stuck in traffic on his way into work. Situations like this will happen no matter how many emergency services staff are available. If you have a hundred paramedics available at all times, eventually the day will come where you need a hundred and one.

Paulzx wrote: »

If you can't see a problem with this you have absolutely no idea how pre hospital emergency care works.

That's weird, cos I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned on here a few times that my dad is a paramedic.

Paulzx · 03-05-2013 11:55PM

orestes wrote: »

How do you know that this had anything to do with cutbacks? For all we know the person replacing the sickie was stuck in traffic on his way into work. Situations like this will happen no matter how many emergency services staff are available. If you have a hundred paramedics available at all times, eventually the day will come where you need a hundred and one.

That's weird, cos I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned on here a few times that my dad is a paramedic.

I'll presume he knows more about it than you then

orestes · 04-05-2013 12:29AM

Paulzx wrote: »

I'll presume he knows more about it than you then

You sound just like his boss.

RustyNut · 04-05-2013 01:33AM

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I would, rightfully, argue that driving an ambulance is not "course of his duty". We're expected to do a lot of things, but driving an ambulance is something i wouldn't expect any member to do without the relevant licence category, and even then i would be slow to do it. Without the proper course done, we're not allowed to drive the Transit/Ducatos, so i seriously doubt the same members would be allowed to drive an Ambulance.

As i said above, it's all well and good to have that law until something happens, and when it does management will not stand behind you.

Here is an example of a Guard who never held a licence, didn't even have a current provisional and when he killed someone faced no consiquences because as was explained to the coroner members of AGS "don't need a licence".

seven_eleven · 04-05-2013 02:22AM

orestes wrote: »

How do you know that this had anything to do with cutbacks?

That's weird, cos I'm pretty sure that I've mentioned on here a few times that my dad is a paramedic.

If your dad was a paramedic, you surely must hear how strained the ambulance service is in this country. It's at breaking point! Just like the other health services, A&E, surgery, nurses, doctors, etc. Its so understaffed, so short for money, waaay too busy, not enough people to handle it.

Is he a paramedic for the HSE or private ambulance services?

For example: There are about 16 emergency ambulances on call for Dublin (Both HSE and DFB), usually a lot less, around 10-12 depending on the weekend/weekdays. You can guarantee at least 8-10 of these will be sitting outside A&E of st James or Beumount (I'm not overly familiar with dublin hospitals) for up to 5 hours stuck with patients waiting for beds.
a few will bedealing with constant nuisence and abuse calls, and the others are running from call to call with absolutely no break.

There are times when there are 0 free ambulances in Dublin, and people are literally told "sorry no ambulances".

Other counties outside Dublin have about 2-4 for the entire county. Generally around 20-40 minutes response time depending on the distance. Further afield in the west of the country, you're waiting up to 2 hours for ambulances. The most serious emergency calls usually require a response time of under 8 minutes, and as far as I know this is what the HSE have set as an aim. Can they achieve it? NOT A CHANCE! 10 minutes after you go into cardiac arrest with no basic life support, the chances of survival are reduced to below 10%

Here's an article http://www.fire-ireland.com/Save-the-Swords-Ambulance

8 out of the 12 Dublin Fire Brigade Ambulances were caught up in the Mater hospital before Christmas due to lack of beds for the patients. This left 4 Ambulances to cover the entire Dublin Area.
I called Ambulance but was told to drive myself

There are nights where it well exceeds 8 I can tell you. Also, I've heard many stories about ambulances from counties 1-2 hours away, 60-80+ km being dispatched to other area's because there's a shortage.

Paulzx · 04-05-2013 02:25PM

orestes wrote: »

You sound just like his boss.

Nah...............I do the exact same job he does.

You sound like you think you've picked up a few things around the dinner table but don't know as much as you think

orestes · 04-05-2013 02:36PM

seven_eleven wrote: »

If your dad was a paramedic, you surely must hear how strained the ambulance service is in this country. It's at breaking point! Just like the other health services, A&E, surgery, nurses, doctors, etc. Its so understaffed, so short for money, waaay too busy, not enough people to handle it.

Is he a paramedic for the HSE or private ambulance services?

For example: There are about 16 emergency ambulances on call for Dublin (Both HSE and DFB), usually a lot less, around 10-12 depending on the weekend/weekdays. You can guarantee at least 8-10 of these will be sitting outside A&E of st James or Beumount (I'm not overly familiar with dublin hospitals) for up to 5 hours stuck with patients waiting for beds.
a few will bedealing with constant nuisence and abuse calls, and the others are running from call to call with absolutely no break.

There are times when there are 0 free ambulances in Dublin, and people are literally told "sorry no ambulances".

Other counties outside Dublin have about 2-4 for the entire county. Generally around 20-40 minutes response time depending on the distance. Further afield in the west of the country, you're waiting up to 2 hours for ambulances. The most serious emergency calls usually require a response time of under 8 minutes, and as far as I know this is what the HSE have set as an aim. Can they achieve it? NOT A CHANCE! 10 minutes after you go into cardiac arrest with no basic life support, the chances of survival are reduced to below 10%

Here's an article http://www.fire-ireland.com/Save-the-Swords-Ambulance

There are nights where it well exceeds 8 I can tell you. Also, I've heard many stories about ambulances from counties 1-2 hours away, 60-80+ km being dispatched to other area's because there's a shortage.

He was with a private service and then went to the HSE (Loughlinstown area). My mam is a volunteer paramedic in the Virginia, Cavan area, but I've no real idea how that works.

I know the emergency services are stretched, the point that I was making is that things like this happen fairly regularly and will always happen no matter how many staff are available. Meeting every single call within 10 minutes is impossible, unless you have a base within 10 minutes of every single home in the country with 2 ambulances and 4 paramedics in it at all times. Things like this do happen, and will always happen, and the staff in the emergency services will keep on doing the best they can to get to as many people as they can. Would it be better if there were more of them? Of course it would, that's obvious, but things like this would still happen.

somefeen · 04-05-2013 02:59PM

Force Majeure? I would have driven the ambulance myself no matter what licence I had if it could potentially save a life.
Balance of risks, you might crash the ambulance but the patient is more likely to die unless transport is sorted soon.
I thought this was how all emergency services worked no?

Would hate to think that if the paramedic asked a guard "I need to get this person to hospital immediately, can you drive the ambulance?" the guard would reply "Sorry I don't have a C1 licence".

Garda drives ambulance/injured child to hospital

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