Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Morag · 01-05-2013 11:25AM

kylith wrote: »

The actual abortion pill is probably pretty safe, I've not used it myself and know of no-one who has, but if you're ordering from a website you really have little way of knowing that what's in the box is what you ordered. Buying medication of any sort online is a risky endeavour.

I know at least a dozen women who have used it, all of them ordered it online from women on web, so what they got was the real medication.
All of them may now face 12 years in jail, and so many those who helped them get the pills.

Morag · 01-05-2013 11:27AM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I want to know; in the case of suicide risk, wtf has an obstetrician/gynecologist got to do with it? I mean I understand they are the ones performing the procedure, but in assessing a woman, surely only a psychiatrist is qualified in that respect?

They will be to give opinion on the pregnancy and it's not as if they are not up the wall busy as well.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

IMO (which I know has no standing really) 2 psychiatrists at most, 1 a professional in suicide specifically and 1 who is a whatever natal psychiatrist (good to see my study in nursing has me up-to-date with all the lingo ) and a third in that field if they are undecided. 3 is still madness, Britain require 2 doctors!

peri natal psychiatrist

vitani · 01-05-2013 11:28AM

meeeeh wrote: »

NObody voted on this specific law though. What some of you are suggesting here is to just ignore democracy when it doesn't suit you, there is a reason pairlaments have to vote laws through. Btw the same was done by political parties who didn't act on supreme court decision.

If their issue was actually about the best way to ensure the X case is legislated for fairly, including the risk to suicide, then I wouldn't have an issue. But every day seems to bring a new soundbite from some TD who thinks they can ignore the suicide aspect because they're personally not comfortable with it.

stinkle · 01-05-2013 11:44AM

I've been following this thread since the start but haven't commented yet. This Bill upsets me on so many levels! It's an insult to women IMO - I agree that it will probably deter women who have the means to travel to the UK or elsewhere. If I was experiencing a crisis pregnancy in the morning and was suicidal I'd be far more likely to avail of that option rather than go through the circus of speaking to a tribunal of doctors.

From experience, I know just how difficult it is for anyone who is suicidal to speak about their feelings. I think I'm even more angered by the attitude to women's mental health shown by those in power. Why should anyone have to speak to 3-6 doctors about suicide?

There's so much awareness about suicide at the moment, I'm sure there would be outrage if someone suggested this in response to all the cyberbullying-related tragedies/financially troubled people/young men etc. I'm not trying to be controversial or downplay any tragedies, but it jars with me that on the one hand everyone is up in arms about suicide epidemics and what the government should and shouldn't do about it. While on the other hand pregnant women are treated differently - as if they aren't to be believed!

Has aftercare in the event of a woman being "lucky" enough to obtain an abortion here been addressed?

clairefontaine · 01-05-2013 11:54AM

stinkle wrote: »

I've been following this thread since the start but haven't commented yet. This Bill upsets me on so many levels! It's an insult to women IMO - I agree that it will probably deter women who have the means to travel to the UK or elsewhere. If I was experiencing a crisis pregnancy in the morning and was suicidal I'd be far more likely to avail of that option rather than go through the circus of speaking to a tribunal of doctors.

From experience, I know just how difficult it is for anyone who is suicidal to speak about their feelings. I think I'm even more angered by the attitude to women's mental health shown by those in power. Why should anyone have to speak to 3-6 doctors about suicide?

There's so much awareness about suicide at the moment, I'm sure there would be outrage if someone suggested this in response to all the cyberbullying-related tragedies/financially troubled people/young men etc. I'm not trying to be controversial or downplay any tragedies, but it jars with me that on the one hand everyone is up in arms about suicide epidemics and what the government should and shouldn't do about it. While on the other hand pregnant women are treated differently - as if they aren't to be believed!

Has aftercare in the event of a woman being "lucky" enough to obtain an abortion here been addressed?

If you were suicidal, would you really go through all that? Wouldn't you just kill yourself?

This is soooo stupid...Ireland's psychs should be de-licensed if they go along with this.

Lyaiera · 01-05-2013 12:17PM

vitani wrote: »

If their issue was actually about the best way to ensure the X case is legislated for fairly, including the risk to suicide, then I wouldn't have an issue. But every day seems to bring a new soundbite from some TD who thinks they can ignore the suicide aspect because they're personally not comfortable with it.

That annoys me. The Supreme Court has spoken, the country has spoken multiple times, but they're just putting their fingers in their ears. They're acting out of personal selfishness and not representing what the people of the country want.

LittleBook · 01-05-2013 12:32PM

Ironically, I don't believe Miss X would have been permitted an abortion under this legislation ... she only had the evidence of one clinical psychologist if I recall correctly.

What happened to Miss X is one of the more shameful things in the recent history of this country. What she was put through by Harry Whelehan and his ilk was abominable.

This legislation, as a conclusion to the whole sorry affair, is a bare-faced insult to her and Irish women as a whole.

sunshine and showers · 01-05-2013 12:44PM

LittleBook wrote: »

Ironically, I don't believe Miss X would have been permitted an abortion under this legislation ... she only had the evidence of one clinical psychologist if I recall correctly.

What happened to Miss X is one of the more shameful things in the recent history of this country. What she was put through by Harry Whelehan and his ilk was abominable.

This legislation, as a conclusion to the whole sorry affair, is a bare-faced insult to her and Irish women as a whole.

This. Also, how could anyone ask a 14 year old girl who was raped to "prove" she is suicidal. It is hard enough to talk about mental health when you are not a teenager/pregnant (I know this from personal experience). That applies to anyone pregnant from rape, by the way. I'm just using Miss X as my example.

The fact that this bill makes no provision for victims of rape and/or incest is a joke. Should someone who is raped have to justify the fact that they don't want to carry their rapist's baby to term? Is that the kind of society we want to live in? Where you have to stand some sort of mini-trial to "prove" yourself worthy of a procedure that is already traumatic enough in itself?

I'm not even in the pro-choice campaign, or pro abortion-on-demand, but this does NOT go far enough.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 01:33PM

Morag wrote: »

They will be to give opinion on the pregnancy and it's not as if they are not up the wall busy as well.

I understand that, but as I said, as to her mental state, they are unqualified in that particular field. As for up the walls, I think anyone with the slightest knowledge of their workload would agree, you are lucky to see them at a birth, let alone anything else!

Morag wrote: »

peri natal psychiatrist

Like I said, I am so glad I know the lingo

can I blame it on typing in a rush and pregnancy forgetfulness???

clairefontaine wrote: »

If you were suicidal, would you really go through all that? Wouldn't you just kill yourself?

This is soooo stupid...Ireland's psychs should be de-licensed if they go along with this.

Haven't the Psychiatrists said they won't be part of this circus? If they are going to be made go through all these assessments and confer even with their already overburdened workloads, I would support them completely if they told Reilly and Co. where to take their legislation and shove it!

Tigger99 · 01-05-2013 01:35PM

I'm listening to liveline which is discussing abortion.

I'm hearing from middle aged and older, men and women that are arguing for the rights of the woman. I gives me hope for the future of our country.

loveisdivine · 01-05-2013 01:48PM

Anyone else getting flashbacks of their parents saying "While you live under our house, you live by our rules!"?
Seems like the main gist of the whole 'you can do it in the UK but not here' bull****.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 01:48PM

eviltwin wrote: »

The 14 years penalty has really angered and upset me. I wasn't expecting that at all. When you compare it to sentences for other crimes its beyond excessive. It really does show what out TD's think of women who have abortions that they feel they deserve 14 years in jail. The stigma lives on

I spent time thinking about this for the past few hours, to the extent I got fairly emotional (though that may be in part to hormones)

What this says to me is; you are worse than Larry Murphy, who only served 12 years for multiple accounts of rape and attempted murder if you are not in a personal position (whatever it may be) to carry a pregnancy. When you think of it like that, I think it is fairly difficult for any woman not to get emotional though. I know it is their "deterrent" but FFS that is insane.

Also does this not go against the referendum held by the people of Ireland that states a woman has the right to information, and the right to travel for abortion? The way I have seen it worded would tell me that it goes against that. That was a referendum, it is part of the constitution, it cannot be amended without us, the people, going to the polls again!

The other thing, (sorry, I am going off on a rant here I am so píssed off!) is in more than half of these cases, there is a partner involved. Out of the 5 people I now to get abortions, 4 were in relationships and their partners were part of the discussion and travel process. If he aids his partner in her choice to terminate a pregnancy, is he liable for persecution too? What about a friend/sibling that arranges their travel or goes with them? I know if my best friend asked me to help her get an abortion I would support her in every way possible, would my aiding her be a criminal offence? It is bloody insanity. Elective abortion is not legal in Ireland, to seek it outside of Ireland is not illegal, we chose to allow it as a electorate, who do those writing these laws think they are going against the will of the people?

LittleBook · 01-05-2013 01:56PM

Tigger99 wrote: »

I'm hearing from middle aged and older, men and women that are arguing for the rights of the woman. I gives me hope for the future of our country.

The middle-aged of today were on the streets in 1992 protesting at the intrusion of the state into the life of a suicidal 14-year-old rape victim ... there's hope for the country yet.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 02:03PM

stinkle wrote: »

Why should anyone have to speak to 3-6 doctors about suicide?

While on the other hand pregnant women are treated differently - as if they aren't to be believed!

Has aftercare in the event of a woman being "lucky" enough to obtain an abortion here been addressed?

Could you imagine anyone who is suicidal being put through this to avail of basic mental health care? That in itself is insanity!

They are doing everything in their power to deter it as an option, in which case they should have left it out altogether, it would be less insulting really!

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one group (Marie Stopes, if I am not mistaken, if I am, please someone correct me) that supply aftercare to women here, be it emotional or otherwise, and I can guarantee you it will be a cold day on the sun before a FG government will give over finances to support and expand these resources!

My impression is, get people to stop thinking of the finance issues, lob together some BS legislation on this X case issue, and go on our holidays and brush it all under the carpet for good and the old time favourite "lets never speak of it again".

LittleBook · 01-05-2013 02:03PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Also does this not go against the referendum held by the people of Ireland that states a woman has the right to information, and the right to travel for abortion? The way I have seen it worded would tell me that it goes against that.

No.

Head 13 Travel and Information

(1) This Act does not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state or freedom to obtain or make available in the State, in accordance with conditions for the time being laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

(2) This Act does not operate to restrict any person from travelling to another state on the ground that his or her intended conduct there would, if occurred in the State, constitute an offence under head 19 of this Act.

This way they can continue to pretend that abortion is not really an issue for Irish women.

The Real Experts On Abortion Are The Women Living In Silence

THERE'S been a lot of abortion-related numbers in the news this week. Much fevered talk about 12 doctors or six consultants (two obstetricians and four psychiatrists) required to assess a suicidal woman with a crisis pregnancy. Lots of speculation about the possibility of six Fine Gael deputies voting against the X Case legislation.

So let's talk numbers. Here's one – the capacity of Croke Park is 82,300. The estimated number of women who have travelled from Ireland to England for an abortion since 1980 is 150,000 (that's based on the number of women who gave an Irish address, the figure is in all likelihood higher).

For anyone who has trouble getting their heads around numbers, the number of Irish women who have travelled to England would fill Croke Park twice over. And just like the thousands of citizens who crowd into the stadium on match days, those women make the sorrowful journey from every part of the island's cities, towns and villages. From each of the 26 counties. They're teenagers, they're in their 20s, 30s and 40s. They're mothers, sisters, daughters, friends – and every day, 11 of them make the trip across the Irish Sea.

They're all around us. Everywhere but on the airwaves, that is. While experts and pundits and politicians fight yet another abortion war, all but very, very few of the 150,000 stay silent. To speak publicly about their experience is to invite upon themselves a world of grief.

So the voices of the thousands of experts on the reality of seeking a termination go unheard as the debate rages.

And still there are those who don't see this as a human rights issue, that this self-imposed silence is a burqa by any other name. And that talk of "floodgates opening" is meaningless.

The floodgates opened long ago.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 02:06PM

LittleBook wrote: »

No.

This way they can continue to pretend that abortion is not really an issue for Irish women.

Thanks for clarifying, I was reading about it earlier and the way it was written I got the impression it went against our referendum, really was píssing me off. But yes, this way they can still pretend the figures given in Wales and England (and no doubt Belfast when they're figures come out too) of women giving Irish addresses are BS. Sure I went over, gave my Irish address, just never went through with it. There are girls go to the Netherlands too, two of my friends went there instead, they rather be accused of taking drugs for a weekend than people wondering did they go to London for an abortion :rolleyes: great world we live in!

eviltwin · 01-05-2013 02:09PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge, there is only one group (Marie Stopes, if I am not mistaken, if I am, please someone correct me) that supply aftercare to women here, be it emotional or otherwise, and I can guarantee you it will be a cold day on the sun before a FG government will give over finances to support and expand these resources!

The family planning clinics do free post abortion check ups and limited counselling but its not enough.

kylith · 01-05-2013 03:03PM

stinkle wrote: »

There's so much awareness about suicide at the moment, I'm sure there would be outrage if someone suggested this in response to all the cyberbullying-related tragedies/financially troubled people/young men etc. I'm not trying to be controversial or downplay any tragedies, but it jars with me that on the one hand everyone is up in arms about suicide epidemics and what the government should and shouldn't do about it. While on the other hand pregnant women are treated differently - as if they aren't to be believed!

It's because, and gods help me, there's an attitude that women will lie about being suicidal in order to get an abortion so, of course, the best thing to do is to make it so onerous that it discourages everyone from even trying.

vitani · 01-05-2013 03:51PM

kylith wrote: »

It's because, and gods help me, there's an attitude that women will lie about being suicidal in order to get an abortion so, of course, the best thing to do is to make it so onerous that it discourages everyone from even trying.

It's ridiculous. If that is the case and someone is desperate enough about a crisis pregnancy to lie about being suicidal, then what other measures would they be driven to if the panel of doctors turns their request down.

My worry is that if someone orders dodgy pills over the internet, knowing there's a possible 14 year jail term, then are they going to be put off seeking medical intervention if something goes wrong.

kylith · 01-05-2013 04:00PM

vitani wrote: »

It's ridiculous. If that is the case and someone is desperate enough about a crisis pregnancy to lie about being suicidal, then what other measures would they be driven to if the panel of doctors turns their request down.

Oh, absolutely. If a woman will lie to get an abortion then she will travel to get an abortion. If she can't do that she will seek to procure one by other means.

vitani wrote: »

My worry is that if someone orders dodgy pills over the internet, knowing there's a possible 14 year jail term, then are they going to be put off seeking medical intervention if something goes wrong.

That is a very good point.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 04:06PM

vitani wrote: »

It's ridiculous. If that is the case and someone is desperate enough about a crisis pregnancy to lie about being suicidal, then what other measures would they be driven to if the panel of doctors turns their request down.

My worry is that if someone orders dodgy pills over the internet, knowing there's a possible 14 year jail term, then are they going to be put off seeking medical intervention if something goes wrong.

This is will be what happens. Of course there are going to be a few terrified girls who would try and get through the three doctor system. I was always told, better you come home dead than pregnant (lovely mother I have) I know I cannot have been alone, if they couldn't go through the doctors, they would try elsewhere. And we will see more girls terrified to even consider calling for medical attention if they think they'll get in trouble for it! At least before now, if they did it, there was no legal repercussions and they would seek health care!

FoxT · 01-05-2013 04:28PM

kylith wrote: »

It's because, and gods help me, there's an attitude that women will lie about being suicidal in order to get an abortion so, of course, the best thing to do is to make it so onerous that it discourages everyone from even trying.

I think that the attitude of the anti-choicers is even more polarised than this. From what I have read & heard, their position is:

1 - There are no circumstances whereby a termination of pregnancy can help a woman who is suicidal. Anybody who disputes this is wrong.

2- Even though the threat of suicide is allowed for in the constitution , there is no way it should be permitted by law because to do so will
a - allow women to procure abortions by pretending to be suicidal
b - 'open the floodgates' so that over time abortion will be freely available.

I think the anti-choice position on this is morally bankrupt.

Also, it really bothers me that everybody is wound up about the suicide question, while Savita is barely mentioned in the debate at all.

The legislation makes no distinction between terminating a pregnancy when the foetus is viable, and when it is not viable. And it is still hung up on 'the life, as opposed to the health' of the mother.

The anti-choicers are keeping the finger in the dyke for now, and I expect over the coming years we may well have more fatalities as a result. It sounds cynical - and I do not mean it to be - but more human sacrifices will be needed before Ireland adopts a humanitarian and strategically optimal approach to the whole abortion question.

stinkle · 01-05-2013 04:56PM

FoxT wrote: »

I think that the attitude of the anti-choicers is even more polarised than this. From what I have read & heard, their position is:

1 - There are no circumstances whereby a termination of pregnancy can help a woman who is suicidal. Anybody who disputes this is wrong.

just on this, I was at the rally in Dublin on Monday and was really impressed by Peadar O'Grady of Doctors for Choice and his debunking of the "abortion has a negative effect on a woman's mental health" argument. He made some brilliant points along the lines of - if you are pro-life and consider abortion is murder, then of course it's possible that you'll feel bad afterwards if you have one. Those are your beliefs.

If, on the other hand, you are pro-choice, don't believe it is murder and it was the right thing for you to do at the time, then you're less likely to experience such feelings, if you do at all.

HOWEVER, if the country you live in stigmatises abortion then that's obviously going to have negative effects on the mental health of women who go through it for whatever reasons personal to them.

Now, I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it, and I'm aware that no two women's experiences are going to be the same, but I do agree with the last point. Now with the way this new legislation is going, it looks like we're stigmatising women even more than before, which I genuinely didn't think could be possible.

Aoifums · 01-05-2013 07:43PM

Can I ask, has it been determined if a woman will have to talk to the three psychiatrists at once or to one and then the three make the decision?
I'm asking because I've had to talk to two psychiatrists at once before and it was a nightmare. Talking to one is terrifying because you're trying to get your words out properly and to make sure you're getting your point across and usually trying not to cry. But with two, you're trying to look at them both at the same time or you flick between the two constantly and it's even more difficult to make sure they both understand you. They both ask questions and occasionally interrupt each other. It's more than double the pressure of talking to one on their own. I'm not even sure if it can be compared.
I know my experience isn't isolated as I've spoken to others and it seems any appointment with two (or more) psychiatrists always goes really badly.

I'd like to point out that I wasn't suicidal at the time. In my experience, trying to describe how you feel to any doctor when you're suicidal is almost impossible. I can't imagine how difficult talking to three psychiatrists while knowing your chance of an abortion is based solely on how your appointment goes.

Bookworm85 · 01-05-2013 07:54PM

vitani wrote: »

My worry is that if someone orders dodgy pills over the internet, knowing there's a possible 14 year jail term, then are they going to be put off seeking medical intervention if something goes wrong.

Or as one of my friends said earlier. What if a woman who finds out she is pregnant as a result of rape decides to use pills or whatever from the internet, and gets caught? 14 years in prison for her while her rapist would be lucky to get 6 :mad::mad::mad::mad:

I cannot begin to describe how angry this "legislation" makes me feel. That shower in the Dail are nothing but yellow-bellied cowards. I have a family member (female) who has struggled for many years with depression, there was a time when she was thinking of taking her own life but is doing much better now. It turns my stomach to think that she, or any other woman in a similar position will be treated like a performing monkey in order to save their lives!!!!! And this idea that women will pretend to be suicidal in order to get an abortion in Ireland is utterly abhorrent! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 07:58PM

Another thing, have they determined when in the pregnancy abortion is allowed? They seem to have said nothing on it. Are they basing it on the "viability of the foetal life" like in England, up to 24 weeks? I would imagine if the mother is at risk after the 24 week mark they will remove it and give them both a chance. But in the case of a suicidal woman, it has a chance of survival after 24 weeks, but what does that mean her at 28 weeks? Is it fair to make her carry it and risk her killing them both? Is it fair to kill a legitimately viable life? What are the plans on those fronts?

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 08:02PM

Bookworm85 wrote: »

And this idea that women will pretend to be suicidal in order to get an abortion in Ireland is utterly abhorrent! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

There are girls so scared and desperate. For goodness sake there was a girl a few years ago committed suicide because her parents told her all A's was the only acceptable Junior Cert results and she got one B. Could you imagine a girl with horrifically strict parents coming home pregnant. As I said, my mother made it clear, she rather me dead than pregnant, and it was NOT her just trying to protect me. They may not be suicidal, but may be so terrified of their parents that they would do anything

They would be seen as "abusers" of this legislation. :rolleyes:

clairefontaine · 01-05-2013 08:12PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Another thing, have they determined when in the pregnancy abortion is allowed? They seem to have said nothing on it. Are they basing it on the "viability of the foetal life" like in England, up to 24 weeks? I would imagine if the mother is at risk after the 24 week mark they will remove it and give them both a chance. But in the case of a suicidal woman, it has a chance of survival after 24 weeks, but what does that mean her at 28 weeks? Is it fair to make her carry it and risk her killing them both? Is it fair to kill a legitimately viable life? What are the plans on those fronts?

Ah look. This whole thing is a crock of ****. They are looking for some bull**** compromise on a divided nation, like they did with divorce.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 08:20PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Ah look. This whole thing is a crock of ****. They are looking for some bull**** compromise on a divided nation, like they did with divorce.

So they didn't put in a gestation length time? Dear Jesus, this seems to be the most hobbled together piece of legislation since the formation of the state. My legal knowledge is mediocre at best and I noticed that was not addressed. We are being led by idiots!

username123 · 01-05-2013 08:21PM

Im absolutely livid about it.

How can they have gotten it SO WRONG!

Appalling. Move from criminalising doctors to criminalising women. 14 years.

This is what it is to be a woman in Ireland in 2013. Its actually disgusting. Im just so angry. Things are worse in this country regarding abortion than they were before.

And wolfpawnat - you were not the only young girl living in fear, I was told NOT to come home at all if I was coming home pregnant.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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