Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

Frank Bullitt · 01-05-2013 03:12PM

I'd love to know about this apparent "Road Tax" that cyclist should be paying, never heard of it.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 03:19PM

JRant wrote: »

Ah, that must be why the Pope mobile has the bullet proof glass. It's not to keep bullets out at all, just all those irate people that he's gesturing at. The nerve of him waving that hand at everyone around.

?

JRant wrote: »

You're engaging in victim blaming here, no two ways about it. That driver needs some serious help managing his anger issues, end of story. Beeping a horn at somebody is not an open invitation to receive the slaps.

Call it "victim blaming" or whatever makes you feel better. I'm talking about personal responsibility and the reality of what can happen when people are abrasive. The driver might need anger management sure, but there's any number out there that may do the same thing the next time you beep at someone unnecessarily to show your displeasure at something they've done. Who said it was an open invitation? What would be an open invitation?

JRant wrote: »

I'd imagine that most people would have been genuinely been terrified in that situation.

I'd advise them not to engage and go on about your day, what skin is it off their nose? Let him drive on, think what a mentaller, and go let him attack someone else.

kylith · 01-05-2013 03:26PM

Jester252 wrote: »

sigh

The cyclist put himself in that position. He did not have to blow his horn after the van had overtaken to show his displeasure with the van driver.
It wasn't a random assaults as the cyclist aided in the creation of the event. The van driver only when after him after he blew his horn. He didn't attack him before it.
The van driver action are wrong I'm not defending him.
However
Personal responsibly is something people need
Actions have consequences plan and simple. Am I innocent if I ran out in front of traffic when I knew it was there?

So if someone jostles you (general 'you', not you 'you') and you say "Hey, watch out", it's perfectly understandable for them to turn around and thump you. That's good to know. After all, you've 'aided in the creation of the event' by having the temerity to draw their attention to the fact they're acting like a jerk, so you've brought it on yourself.

Ray Palmer · 01-05-2013 03:57PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I don't agree at all. I think had that cyclist not beeped or gestured at the car, the guy in the car would not have got out.

Hang on, you've seen punch ups yet you said road rage is like alien abduction i.e. doesn't exist?

Leave out the gesture as it was not offensive or even directed at the driver. Not sure how much the driver could see using his wing mirrors only as the back window was blocked out. You are completely overblowing the "gesture" which is clear exasperation and not an aggressive act.

It still doesn't matter the driver was 100% wrong to loose control, stop the car and chase down the cyclist. There is no excuse or blame to go to the cyclist. Do you think the driver would reacted the same to a guy in a car?

I never said road rage didn't exist I said use of the term is not a show it happens all the time. It is a silly argument that knowing the term means it is common and exists.

The point I made about seeing a fight between drivers was anything can set some people off and a horn isn't it. Not using a horn will not make you much safer and use of may actually make people aware of mistakes improving awareness. Which is part of what they are for to alert people of dangers.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 04:15PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Leave out the gesture as it was not offensive or even directed at the driver. Not sure how much the driver could see using his wing mirrors only as the back window was blocked out. You are completely overblowing the "gesture" which is clear exasperation and not an aggressive act.

I'm not overblowing anything, the cyclist acted in a passive aggressive way in response to what the driver did. What is so hard to understand? The driver reacted badly, which is something very common and not suprising in the slightest to me.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It still doesn't matter the driver was 100% wrong to loose control, stop the car and chase down the cyclist. There is no excuse or blame to go to the cyclist. Do you think the driver would reacted the same to a guy in a car?

As I've said I think they both done things wrong, the driver will obviously dealt with more seriously by a court, rightfully so.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I never said road rage didn't exist I said use of the term is not a show it happens all the time. It is a silly argument that knowing the term means it is common and exists.

Okay, so you agree it is prevalent then and we'll forget alien abduction?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point I made about seeing a fight between drivers was anything can set some people off and a horn isn't it.

A horn can be it though, that is the reality of what happened. A beeping horn is something associated with road rage.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not using a horn will not make you much safer and use ofmay actually make people aware of mistakes improving awareness. Which is part of what they are for to alert people of dangers.

According to you maybe but not the RSA, it is a device for warning, not for correcting peoples mistakes.

JRant · 01-05-2013 04:30PM

Ush1 wrote: »

?

Call it "victim blaming" or whatever makes you feel better. I'm talking about personal responsibility and the reality of what can happen when people are abrasive. The driver might need anger management sure, but there's any number out there that may do the same thing the next time you beep at someone unnecessarily to show your displeasure at something they've done. Who said it was an open invitation? What would be an open invitation?

I'd advise them not to engage and go on about your day, what skin is it off their nose? Let him drive on, think what a mentaller, and go let him attack someone else.

Well you seem to think gesturing at someone is reason enough be attacked.

It doesn't make me feel better or anything of the sort. It is victim blaming, pure and simple. You keep going on about personal responsibility and I fail to see what it has to do with the cyclist.

We live in a society whereby we regularly interact with those around us, in all sorts of different manners. There are times when we will leave things go as you suggest and times where we will gesture when somebody does something incredibly stupid or dangerous, like being overtaken that closely. It's an instinctive reaction. Now getting out of your van twice to attack somebody is not instinctive, it shows a level of anger that really should have resulted in a lifetime ban from driving IMO.

Ray Palmer · 01-05-2013 04:32PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm not overblowing anything, the cyclist acted in a passive aggressive way in response to what the driver did. What is so hard to understand? The driver reacted badly, which is something very common and not suprising in the slightest to me..

You don't know what passive aggressive is if you think that. He was either aggressive in his actions or not. He acted so wasn't passive. Where as what you are doing by picking and choosing what to ignore is acting in a passive aggressive way.

I didn't say road rage was prevalent yet you chose to pretend you understood that from what I said while ignoring the question about whether you think he would have done the same to a car driver. Passive aggressive!

You also haven't read the report correctly either as the driver is not being dealt with by the courts.

You are overblowing the gesture unless you can explain what was offensive about it. As far as I am concerned if this is an offensive gesture I am guilty of desk rage everyday and on the verge of killing somebody. :eek:

Jester252 · 01-05-2013 04:33PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

Incorrect, he appropriately warned the van driver that his manoeuvre was dangerous.

Why after he was overtaken? Why not during it.

bruschi · 01-05-2013 04:34PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm not overblowing anything, the cyclist acted in a passive aggressive way in response to what the driver did. What is so hard to understand? The driver reacted badly, which is something very common and not suprising in the slightest to me.

As I've said I think they both done things wrong, the driver will obviously dealt with more seriously by a court, rightfully so.

Okay, so you agree it is prevalent then and we'll forget alien abduction?

A horn can be it though, that is the reality of what happened. A beeping horn is something associated with road rage.

According to you maybe but not the RSA, it is a device for warning, not for correcting peoples mistakes.

you're doing a good job of winding people up. Cant believe people are still reacting to the nonsense that you are spouting.

beeping horn is associated with road rage. good one.

I genuinely hope that you are just on a wind up and you dont believe some of the stuff you have already written. not being surprised that the driver reacted like that? jeez, I doubt you drive in a built up area much if you are not surprised that people will react like that when they act a dick and have a horn beeped at them. stand at a busy junction someday and listen to how many times a horn is blown, then count how many people chase down the person blowing the horn and then get beaten up. It hink the first one will be pretty high, the second, not so much.

keep going though, you have kept this dead thread going for a good while longer than it should have anyway.

Jester252 · 01-05-2013 04:39PM

JRant wrote: »

The cyclist was going about his business pedalling down the road, some lunatic overtook him to closely and then proceeded to thump the sh*te out of him because he blew his horn at him.

Give over would ya, imagine that was someone close to you that it happened to. I'm sure you'd be quick to tell them it was their own fault, personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah.

If you stick your finger in a socket does it still count as a shock?
If my auntie had balls she's be my uncle.
If.......

So nobody has personal responsibility? I can do what I what without having to worry about the consequences? That attitude is what wrong with most road users. The incident could have be avoided by both the van driver and the cyclist if either one would have acted correctly.

kylith · 01-05-2013 04:40PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Why after he was overtaken? Why not during it.

This has already been answered several times:

When you are being overtaken dangerously closely it is incredibly risky to remove a hand from the bars as, if you were to hit a pothole, you would not have full control of the bike and would risk winding up under the wheels of the car overtaking.

JRant · 01-05-2013 04:44PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm not overblowing anything, the cyclist acted in a passive aggressive way in response to what the driver did. What is so hard to understand? The driver reacted badly, which is something very common and not suprising in the slightest to me.

The cyclist was not passive-aggressive, I fail to see how beeping to warn the driver and gesturing that the van was to close can be interpreted as such. The cyclist was assertive, not passive-aggressive.

As I've said I think they both done things wrong, the driver will obviously dealt with more seriously by a court, rightfully so.

And what way should the courts be dealing with the cyclist then?

Okay, so you agree it is prevalent then and we'll forget alien abduction?

A horn can be it though, that is the reality of what happened. A beeping horn is something associated with road rage.

Beeping a horn is not associated with road rage, it is purely down to people having poor self control and anger issues.

According to you maybe but not the RSA, it is a device for warning, not for correcting peoples mistakes.

But the cyclist did use it in an appropriate manner, i.e. to warn the driver that he was to close to him.

.

Jester252 · 01-05-2013 04:44PM

kylith wrote: »

This has already been answered several times:

When you are being overtaken dangerously closely it is incredibly risky to remove a hand from the bars as, if you were to hit a pothole, you would not have full control of the bike and would risk winding up under the wheels of the car overtaking.

Why the hand gesture?
The horn was blown more of the cyclist annoyance than safety

kylith · 01-05-2013 04:49PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Why the hand gesture?
The horn was blown more of the cyclist annoyance than safety

Please see post 765. I know it's not always feasible to read a whole thread, but reading the last page is probably a good idea.

RainyDay · 01-05-2013 04:49PM

Jester252 wrote: »

sigh

The cyclist put himself in that position. He did not have to blow his horn after the van had overtaken to show his displeasure with the van driver.
It wasn't a random assaults as the cyclist aided in the creation of the event. The van driver only when after him after he blew his horn. He didn't attack him before it.
The van driver action are wrong I'm not defending him.
However
Personal responsibly is something people need
Actions have consequences plan and simple. Am I innocent if I ran out in front of traffic when I knew it was there?

She was asking to be raped, with her short skirt and high heels walking alone in that part of town at night.

See how that works...

JRant · 01-05-2013 04:50PM

Jester252 wrote: »

So nobody has personal responsibility? I can do what I what without having to worry about the consequences? That attitude is what wrong with most road users. The incident could have be avoided by both the van driver and the cyclist if either one would have acted correctly.

What on earth are you on about?
I'm afraid your just engaging in straw-man building and moving of the goal posts to suit your own agenda.

reprazant · 01-05-2013 04:55PM

I am presuming that Jester feels that any action by the cyclist, other than to meekly accept nearly being hit by a car and to do nothing, means that he is at fault for actions of the driver.

runawaybishop · 01-05-2013 04:58PM

Jester252 wrote: »

Why after he was overtaken? Why not during it.

Several legitimate reasons that are just as likely as your argument that he did it to be aggressive. Number one amongst them is that it simply took him that long to react.

Knasher · 01-05-2013 05:01PM

Just out of interest Ush and Jester, what percentage of the blame do you assign to the cyclist for what happened?

kylith · 01-05-2013 05:02PM

reprazant wrote: »

I am presuming that Jester feels that any action by the cyclist, other than to meekly accept nearly being hit by a car and to do nothing, means that he is at fault for actions of the driver.

Yeah. Some of the attitudes seem to boil down to 'anyone who stands up to a bully gets what they deserve'.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:05PM

bruschi wrote: »

you're doing a good job of winding people up. Cant believe people are still reacting to the nonsense that you are spouting.

beeping horn is associated with road rage. good one.

I genuinely hope that you are just on a wind up and you dont believe some of the stuff you have already written. not being surprised that the driver reacted like that? jeez, I doubt you drive in a built up area much if you are not surprised that people will react like that when they act a dick and have a horn beeped at them. stand at a busy junction someday and listen to how many times a horn is blown, then count how many people chase down the person blowing the horn and then get beaten up. It hink the first one will be pretty high, the second, not so much.

keep going though, you have kept this dead thread going for a good while longer than it should have anyway.

Call it nonsense all you like, I have backed it up with stats, you haven't. All you've done is spout hyperbole.

Again, if you read through my posts you might actually see. I drive mainly in Dublin city and Cork, city and countryside and just for your benefit I'll post the stat again:

NEARLY 40 per cent of Irish drivers admit to shouting or getting angry behind the wheel on a weekly basis – with a very angry 11.5 per cent admitting to daily bouts of road rage.
These worrying statistics are the findings of a recent study carried out among Irish drivers, which also revealed around 13 per cent of motorists have got out of their car to confront another driver.
The Continental Tyres report also found that nearly one in three road users ‘expect’ to experience aggressive or intimidating driving whilst out in the car.

So no, I won't be counting at junctions but hey, keep talking what you're talking.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:06PM

Knasher wrote: »

Just out of interest Ush and Jester, what percentage of the blame do you assign to the cyclist for what happened?

I honestly don't understand the question? The point I'm making is he could have avoided it in my opinion, quite easily. Do you agree or disagree?

kylith · 01-05-2013 05:09PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the question? The point I'm making is he could have avoided it in my opinion, quite easily. Do you agree or disagree?

That he could have 'easily avoided' it assumes that he knew he would be assaulted. No-one would, or should, assume that alerting someone to their dangerous behaviour would lead to a beating.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:10PM

JRant wrote: »

Well you seem to think gesturing at someone is reason enough be attacked.

Where have I said that?

JRant wrote: »

It doesn't make me feel better or anything of the sort. It is victim blaming, pure and simple. You keep going on about personal responsibility and I fail to see what it has to do with the cyclist.

The cyclist could have avoided the situation, plain and simple.

JRant wrote: »

We live in a society whereby we regularly interact with those around us, in all sorts of different manners. There are times when we will leave things go as you suggest and times where we will gesture when somebody does something incredibly stupid or dangerous, like being overtaken that closely. It's an instinctive reaction. Now getting out of your van twice to attack somebody is not instinctive, it shows a level of anger that really should have resulted in a lifetime ban from driving IMO.

It's instinctive for some people I'm afraid, as the video demonstrated. As the stats and article I posted show, road rage is a very real thing and instinctive reactions or not(which I don't agree blowing a horn is) things can escalate.

kylith · 01-05-2013 05:12PM

Ush1 wrote: »

It's instinctive for some people I'm afraid, as the video demonstrated. As the stats and article I posted show, road rage is a very real thing and instinctive reactions or not(which I don't agree blowing a horn is) things can escalate.

Getting out of your car twice to chase and beat someone is not instinct. It is a premeditated act.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:15PM

kylith wrote: »

That he could have 'easily avoided' it assumes that he knew he would be assaulted. No-one would, or should, assume that alerting someone to their dangerous behaviour would lead to a beating.

But that's the risk he ran, maybe he thinks it's all very insular and safe and that beeping at someone won't end badly but as I've said, very few instances I've seen do people react well to being beeped at. Some say f you, others go totally mad.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:16PM

kylith wrote: »

Getting out of your car twice to chase and beat someone is not instinct. It is a premeditated act.

Okay, call it adrenaline then? Point is he's not the only one who would do that.

seamus · 01-05-2013 05:17PM

Ush1 wrote: »

The cyclist could have avoided the situation, plain and simple.

"She could have avoided being raped if she had just worn a longer skirt, plain and simple". See where the fault in your ethics are here? You're assigning blame to someone who has done nothing wrong.

It's instinctive for some people I'm afraid, as the video demonstrated. As the stats and article I posted show, road rage is a very real thing and instinctive reactions or not(which I don't agree blowing a horn is) things can escalate.

Instinctive is that video of the guy who lands a serious sucker punch when a buddy jumps out of a bin to try and scare him.

Road rage is not "instinctive" by any measure. Reactionary and passionate, sure. It doesn't mitigate it in the slightest. If anything, it makes it worse because it shows that the aggressor is incapable of controlling himself in tense situations and so presents an ongoing danger to public safety inside and outside their vehicle.

Knasher · 01-05-2013 05:20PM

Ush1 wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the question?

It isn't a difficult question, I'm just asking you for a gut reaction number so I can know how much blame you would assign where. Just a percentage. Obviously you don't think 50% because you have already indicated that you don't think they are equally to blame. I'm not going to ask you to justify your response, I just want to get a bearing on exactly what people have been arguing over for the last 5 pages.

Ush1 · 01-05-2013 05:26PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You don't know what passive aggressive is if you think that. He was either aggressive in his actions or not. He acted so wasn't passive. Where as what you are doing by picking and choosing what to ignore is acting in a passive aggressive way.

I'm not about to get into a semantics argument but it was passive aggressive, it was non verbal aggression.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I didn't say road rage was prevalent yet you chose to pretend you understood that from what I said while ignoring the question about whether you think he would have done the same to a car driver. Passive aggressive!

Sorry if I missed that, yes I think he may well have to a car driver. You believe he had a vendetta against cyclists?

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You also haven't read the report correctly either as the driver is not being dealt with by the courts.

I don't believe I referenced what was actually happening in this case at all but what I'm saying is that's what I would assume.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You are overblowing the gesture unless you can explain what was offensive about it. As far as I am concerned if this is an offensive gesture I am guilty of desk rage everyday and on the verge of killing somebody. :eek:

Beeps and gesture, combo of both, clearly an interaction happened between the two which escalated negatively.

Cyclists, rules of the road, a bit of cop on!

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