Welcome to conditioning

discus · 30-04-2013 01:29PM

boards.ie should have a mechanism where posting/viewing in Conspiracy Theories disables your ability to post anywhere else.

Keeps most of us happy, and gives the CT idiots another paranoia-fest to keep them occupied.

Crooked Jack · 30-04-2013 01:30PM

ballsymchugh wrote: »

no he doesn't.

people in the USA have the opportunity to protest, disagree and vote.
if you do that in DPRK, you're sent to 're-education' camps

I dont think he's saying they're the exact same, merely highlighting some similarities between their feverish, almost fanatical versions of patriotism and the attitudes, though not necessarily actions, directed at those who dont buy into it.

Dyr · 30-04-2013 01:30PM

Its fairly disgusting, why were they happy to just stand there chanting when they could have rushed the ambulance and lynched your man. Not so much as a shoe thrown, Americans and their rule of law pfftt

30-04-2013 01:35PM

conorhal wrote: »

Not really, celebrating the fact that a veil of threat and terror has been lifted from your streets with the apprehension of the perpetrators of a terrorist atrocity that murdered innocent children is a perfectly human and legit reaction as far as I'm concerned

Quite right.

I'm delighted Americans are celebrating their survival.

I'm really delighted that if the terrorists greatest weapon is the threat of further terror, that ordinary Yanks are showing they are unafraid, unbowed, and won't be quietened, and that those pictures will be looked at by people who would like nothing more than to see them afraid, bowed, and stilled.

We're all conditioned to be proud and patriotic to some extent and nothing fosters patriotism more than having your way of life and freedoms threatened by outside forces.

Contrary to popular opinion in AH, I happen to think the Americans have a lot to be proud of and that most of us have a lot to be grateful to them for. Many Irish people turned to the US for a better life, many in Europe work for US firms, all of us appreciate some, if not most of their popular culture. We have the Yanks to thank for many of the freedoms we take for granted and the map of Europe would look very different if it weren't for them.

old hippy · 30-04-2013 02:05PM

conorhal wrote: »

Not really, celebrating the fact that a veil of threat and terror has been lifted from your streets with the apprehension of the perpetrators of a terrorist atrocity that murdered innocent children is a perfectly human and legit reaction as far as I'm concerned, as is proudly desplaying the fact that you remain unbowed by those that would try to subvert everything you believe in.

Only an idiot tries to draw a parallel with N. Korea's mandatory nationalism, it's you're knee jerk reactionary and repulsive attitude to such scenes that's actually disgusting, it says more about your pathetic insecurities then it does about them.

We're talking about conditioning, perhaps the personal attacks can be kept to a minimum?

If you don't see any similarities between the two countries, that's fine. Dissent is allowed

I'd also say that US nationalism, if not mandatory, certainly feels like it.

kowloon · 30-04-2013 02:05PM

Bitching about the government is the national sport in the USA. They put us to shame, but in North Korea it's a ticket to a happy camp where you'll receive the best of care and recreational facilities.

old hippy · 30-04-2013 02:07PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Idiotic Old Bore.

Fascinating contribution, cheers

30-04-2013 02:28PM

Nationalism of any stripe is a load of tosh, whether it be North Korean, American, Irish or English, 'my country right or wrong' and all that bollocks.

Dyr · 30-04-2013 02:32PM

9959 wrote: »

Nationalism of any stripe is a load of tosh, whether it be North Korean, American, Irish or English, 'my country right or wrong' and all that bollocks.

Except thats not nationalism of course.

brandon_flowers · 30-04-2013 02:51PM

1. Merika is a good example of where media controls opinions. Out of sight out of mind. Don't report what the people don't need to know. Most regional news stations will have one of two stories about Obama's policies and then loads of local stories. Much like local radio stations in Ireland.

Except when you blow that up (may be the wrong term to use) the national broadcasters like Fox and CBS mainly report national issues and a few international issues with a nice slant. People are free to make up an opinion but they are gently guided in the way in which their opinion is formed.

2. In North Korea are not allowed have a TV that you can tune away from government stations.

General General · 30-04-2013 02:55PM

US is clearly superior. They've even got "US" as an abb'n for their nation.

old hippy · 30-04-2013 02:58PM

Bambi wrote: »

Except thats not nationalism of course.

Except that it is, of course. Not exclusively but it's part of the whole nationalism bobbins.

Ruu · 30-04-2013 03:01PM

I blame Jim Duggan, that 2x4 wielding bastid!

Rented Mule · 30-04-2013 03:06PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvpxVE_kQXg

The 1991 NHL All Star Game at the Chicago Stadium. This is something that has been happening going back to the mid-80s.

donegal_road · 30-04-2013 03:15PM

from his book, Propaganda and the Public Mind, Noam Chomsky 'discusses prospects for building a movement to challenge corporate domination of the media, the environment, and even our private lives.'

I know it is long, but for anyone with a remote interest in the topic, even 10 minutes is worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHU2AVcK5l8

Wompa1 · 30-04-2013 03:37PM

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

I've been living in the US for a year and three months now. I would agree with the idea that people here are 'conditioned' but not in the ways that you suggest. I'm not sure why you think the way you do, I would guess you are on the outside looking in. I don't know anything about North Korea other than from documentaries and articles, if what I read is true than a key difference that you didn't allude to. You say Americans are isolated? Since I got here I have worked with a few Mexians, Canadians, a Phillipino lady, a Russian guy, A Japanese guy, a Chinese guy, A Switz guy, A Uganda fella, A few Brits, A French guy....not all that isolated, if you ask me! Pretty much every article I have read from journalists going into North Korea is armed guards and North Korean people having never seen a 'Westerner' before. Not the same...

old hippy · 30-04-2013 03:47PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

I've been living in the US for a year and three months now. I would agree with the idea that people here are 'conditioned' but not in the ways that you suggest. I'm not sure why you think the way you do, I would guess you are on the outside looking in. I don't know anything about North Korea other than from documentaries and articles, if what I read is true than a key difference that you didn't allude to. You say Americans are isolated? Since I got here I have worked with a few Mexians, Canadians, a Phillipino lady, a Russian guy, A Japanese guy, a Chinese guy, A Switz guy, A Uganda fella, A few Brits, A French guy....not all that isolated, if you ask me! Pretty much every article I have read from journalists going into North Korea is armed guards and North Korean people having never seen a 'Westerner' before. Not the same...

Let me clarify a few things. I've been to the States several times, my mom is American & I mostly love the place. I am suggesting that there are parallels/similarities in the forms of indoctrination the people go through in order to be taught to love their country. I am not, for one minute, suggesting it's exactly the same as DPRK.

You've worked with a number of people from different countries; that's great - they can offer their fellow workers a different perspective. But many Americans can be quite isolated as to what's happening outside of their country. I found that in Texas, Georgia and Hawaii (possibly one of the most diverse places on Earth). "Was Ireland in London?", "What part of Australia is that?", "Are you a GI?" etc etc. Now, that's my personal anecdotage and I wouldn't apply it to all Americans, of course.

But watching news footage over there, when it comes to outside the US - some of the reports feel like they're covering stories from Mars.

Wompa1 · 30-04-2013 03:55PM

old hippy wrote: »

Let me clarigy a few things. I've been to the States several times, my mom is American & I mostly love the place. I am suggesting that there are parallels/similarities in the forms of indoctrination the people go through in order to be taught to love their country. I am not, for one minute, suggesting it's exactly the same as DPRK.

You've worked with a number of people from different countries; that's great - they can offer their fellow workers a different perspective. But many Americans can be quite isolated as to what's happening outside of their country. I found that in Texas, Georgia and Hawaii (possibly one of the most diverse places on Earth). "Was Ireland in London?", "What part of Australia is that?", "Are you a GI?" etc etc. Now, that's my personal anecdotage and I wouldn't apply it to all Americans, of course.

But watching news footage over there, when it comes to outside the US - some of the reports feel like they're covering stories from Mars.

Ok, go on a college campus in Ireland with a map of the United States and ask somebody to point out where Montanna is. Ask what is the captial city of Florida. Ask what state Washington D.C is in. That's my personal anecdote. The Irish are highly educated, it does not mean we are somehow more progressive or culturally aware as a group. These Youtube videos that get lobbied around about asking Americans questions about politics, geography etc. An ex girlfriend of mine thought that the clock tower in London was called Uncle Ben, she didn't follow any current events, had no idea what happened in World War 1 or World War 2 and couldn't pick out Longford on a map, let alone somewhere in the states like Washington State. And AND! she was a PHD student in the University in Galway.

I get that the people who will post on this thread are likely pretty intelligent and opinionated but I'm sure everybody knows people like my ex. Because I know plenty more Irish people that are just like her.

Kolido · 30-04-2013 04:02PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

Ok, go on a college campus in Ireland with a map of the United States and ask somebody to point out where Montanna is. Ask what is the captial city of Florida. Ask what state Washington D.C is in. That's my personal anecdote. The Irish are highly educated, it does not mean we are somehow more progressive or culturally aware as a group. These Youtube videos that get lobbied around about asking Americans questions about politics, geography etc. An ex girlfriend of mine thought that the clock tower in London was called Uncle Ben, she didn't follow any current events, had no idea what happened in World War 1 or World War 2 and couldn't pick out Longford on a map, let alone somewhere in the states like Washington State. And AND! she was a PHD student in the University in Galway.

I get that the people who will post on this thread are likely pretty intelligent and opinionated but I'm sure everybody knows people like my ex. Because I know plenty more Irish people that are just like her.

Blonde?

shruikan2553 · 30-04-2013 04:07PM

I did my first year of school in the US. Having 5 year old children swearing allegiance to the flag was odd, my parents got me out of it but we were white Irish/English Christians so probably given a bit more leeway in terms of patriotism.

Each state is run like a country so most americans can live their entire lives going on holidays and working within the country so a knowledge of life outside of that isn't needed but they could do a bit better on learning stuff that doesn't involve america.

Wompa1 · 30-04-2013 04:11PM

Kolido wrote: »

Blonde?

No, unfortunately not. I'm sure a blonde would have been more fun at least.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I did my first year of school in the US. Having 5 year old children swearing allegiance to the flag was odd, my parents got me out of it but we were white Irish/English Christians so probably given a bit more leeway in terms of patriotism.

Not sure if that's federal or not. But from what I know here, they haven't sworn allegiance to the flag in a good few years. I did have to do it when I lost my passport and had to get it replaced.

GalwayGuy2 · 30-04-2013 04:16PM

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.
Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

Like Ireland, where a hollering mob celebrates Saint Patrick's day

Like Ireland, where you are conditioned through daily prayers and repentance.

Just the bit in bold. Whether you like them or love them, the whole global politic systemsacts in accordance or contention with America. So, for all intents and purposes, America is the center of the universe.

coolemon · 30-04-2013 04:39PM

There is a process of 'indoctrination' in all states.

A state is a community of people who claim the legitimate use and monopoly of violence over given territorial area - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

That territorial area, and those people who fall within, are a social construction.

The community of violence (the gardai, judiciary, army, political establishment, third estate) legitimate their violence and power through the creation of the social construct we call the nation. The community of violence define this construct through coercion and force. The community of violence is not reflective of the the people it rules, rather, the people it rules are a reflection of the definition constructed by the community of violence.

Social conditioning, brainwashing, myth creation and so forth, are necessary for the community of violence to maintain their legitimacy.

WilyCoyote · 30-04-2013 04:52PM

Grumpy Hippy, when you talk about the USA, you are talking about a group of states that go under one flag. Different states have different laws. A bit like the United States of Europe under the European flag. Well, except that the US isn't riven by petty nationalistic squabbling among it's States. It has been settled far longer than Ireland or your country ....... about 15'000 years and the population is far more culturally diverse. Two main languages - English and Spanish. The GDP is quite high and unemployment is around 7.6%. If you want wilderness, sun, skiing, desert, densely populated, sparsely populated or 5' high snowbanks, you've got them here. So there is no need to go overseas - unless you want to get a pain in the butt flying. All of this and more in Wiki - you may want to log on there.
I realize that your ensuing answers are meant to get as many posts as possible - at the expense of decent discussion. But it will do your ego the world of good.

Wompa1 · 30-04-2013 04:59PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Grumpy Hippy, when you talk about the USA, you are talking about a group of states that go under one flag. Different states have different laws. A bit like the United States of Europe under the European flag. Well, except that the US isn't riven by petty nationalistic squabbling among it's States. It has been settled far longer than Ireland or your country ....... about 15'000 years and the population is far more culturally diverse. Two main languages - English and Spanish. The GDP is quite high and unemployment is around 7.6%. If you want wilderness, sun, skiing, desert, densely populated, sparsely populated or 5' high snowbanks, you've got them here. So there is no need to go overseas - unless you want to get a pain in the butt flying. All of this and more in Wiki - you may want to log on there.
I realize that your ensuing answers are meant to get as many posts as possible - at the expense of decent discussion. But it will do your ego the world of good.

Although I agree with you about so much to see and do here that you don't have to leave the country. And although there is actually some cultural differences amongst the states themselves, I would say to Americans, if you can, you should travel outside of the states to experiences the differences you wouldn't see by going from state to state.

old hippy · 30-04-2013 05:02PM

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Grumpy Hippy, when you talk about the USA, you are talking about a group of states that go under one flag. Different states have different laws. A bit like the United States of Europe under the European flag. Well, except that the US isn't riven by petty nationalistic squabbling among it's States. It has been settled far longer than Ireland or your country ....... about 15'000 years and the population is far more culturally diverse. Two main languages - English and Spanish. The GDP is quite high and unemployment is around 7.6%. If you want wilderness, sun, skiing, desert, densely populated, sparsely populated or 5' high snowbanks, you've got them here. So there is no need to go overseas - unless you want to get a pain in the butt flying. All of this and more in Wiki - you may want to log on there.
I realize that your ensuing answers are meant to get as many posts as possible - at the expense of decent discussion. But it will do your ego the world of good.

I'd love to have a decent discussion with you and point out the inaccuracies in your contribution but the name calling and patronising tone in your post leads me to believe it will be anything but "decent".

Is this your modus operandi, btw? Join a new forum and immediately insult other posters?

Knasher · 30-04-2013 05:06PM

Both media in both countries have a lot of content that promotes a certain view of the country. But the motivation behind it is very different.

US media isn't really propaganda, because the point of it isn't to sell a viewpoint, it is because that viewpoint sells well. Media that paints America in a favorable light simply sells better in a domestic audience. Interestingly China is becoming an increasingly important market for American media, so we are seeing a shift in the content of that media in order to appeal to a Chinese market. There was a videogame recently which was meant to feature China as the enemy, but switched to North Korea instead. Or the movie Looper, which had an extended version released only in China which contained scenes in Shanghai. Or Iron Man 3 which has an extended China only version which contains some more actors who are famous to a Chinese audience.

Media that is produced for an Irish audience engages in the exact same thing. It sells a view that exaggerates our importance on the world stage, and how known and loved we are as a people across the world. But it isn't trying to get us to believe this for some dark reason, it simply sells better in an Irish audience.

On the other hand North Korea's propaganda is trying to encourage a viewpoint to its people. Mostly to convince them that their leaders aren't that bad compared to the rest of the world, so that the people don't rise up and throw them out of office.

Son Of A Vidic · 30-04-2013 05:10PM

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

You mean the outpouring of joy, relief and celebration on the streets after police captured a murdering scumbag? A scumbag that had a city in lockdown. Cop on please.

old hippy · 30-04-2013 05:17PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

You mean the outpouring of joy, relief and celebration on the streets after police captured a murdering scumbag? A scumbag that had a city in lockdown. Cop on please.

A messed up teenager, if you please. And it's not the celebrating a safer city I find unusual. It's the specific chants of "USA! USA! USA!" that disgust me. What was that all about, do you think?

Conditioning, folks.

30-04-2013 05:31PM

old hippy wrote: »

A messed up teenager, if you please. And it's not the celebrating a safer city I find unusual. It's the specific chants of "USA! USA! USA!" that disgust me. What was that all about, do you think?

Conditioning, folks.

A messed-up, homicidal mass-murderer. A legal adult.

I don't know why you're offended at the chanting in celebration of their own country, especially if you've ever heard the Irish singing 'Fields of Athenry' at a match, or the British singing God Save The Queen at some public event.

As for Americans knowing little about affairs in Europe, ask a few educated Chinese, or Indians, or Venezuelans and see how much they know. Americans might think the US is the centre of their universe, but Europe isn't to anyone else but Europeans.

I really hate this picking on Americans. There are States within the States with Christian fundamentalist leanings where I wouldn't be that interested in living, but the gigantic majority of Americans are proud of their country and pretty well informed about what goes on inside its borders.

Considering how little effect affairs in Europe and elsewhere have on the everyday lives of Americans, I don't understand the level of judgement levelled at them over it.

Don't forget that America is home to seven out of the current top ten universities in the world. It's far from an intellectual wasteland.

Welcome to conditioning

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