Welcome to conditioning

old hippy

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

Hardonraging

Ever been to a county final OP ?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you're an idiot OP

donvito99

Eh, the last 5 seconds of Amhrán na bhFiann?

old hippy

Hardonraging wrote: »

Ever been to a county final OP ?

Is that like Little League? I went to one of those when I was a kid.

bodice ripper

likening the US to North Korea is going to undermine any valid criticism you might have to make about the US.

bodice ripper

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

Seems to me that by Old Hippy, you actually mean 14 year old who just discovered Rage Against the Machine.

EuskalHerria

Watch this OP (and others) it's a documentary on western culture made by the North Koreans.

http://youtu.be/R0mwCtzv9PM

Ignore the first 30 seconds and give it 5 minutes. It's actually funny enough to watch their perception of things and aspects of our society. The Oprah bit had me laughing.

Dravokivich

old hippy wrote: »

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Domestically they are. Both who's foreign policy seems to be intent on boosting their domestic sense of self value.

It's also not that surprising that the general public in the USA would appear to be isolated from the rest of the world. If they want to go abroad on a cheap budget it's Canada or Mexico. And neither of them would be cheap for the majority of them. Hell each state is practically run like a country. The coverage we get of what happens there barely scrapes the barrel.

They're ignorant? Or is everything else just a fúck less relevant to them?

Delirium

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

better late than never to discover conditioning. It'll work wonders on your dreadlocks :P:pac:

TwoShedsJackson

donvito99 wrote: »

Eh, the last 5 seconds of Amhrán na bhFiann?

Shoving Connie around the green?

donvito99

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Shoving Connie around the green?

She'll be calling around sixteen.

I think.

old hippy

Dravokivich wrote: »

Domestically they are. Both who's foreign policy seems to be intent on boosting their domestic sense of self value.

It's also not that surprising that the general public in the USA would appear to be isolated from the rest of the world. If they want to go abroad on a cheap budget it's Canada or Mexico. And neither of them would be cheap for the majority of them. Hell each state is practically run like a country. The coverage we get of what happens there barely scrapes the barrel.

They're ignorant? Or is everything else just a fúck less relevant to them?

It's a question I ask myself all the time. I also find them very friendly, polite and confidant. It's when that confidence fuels the ignorance that I tend to worry.

Of course, the USA has and continues to produce great thinkers, politicians, artists etc. I couldn't imagine jazz coming from the DPRK. But then, I haven't visited the place. Which reminds me -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005y2pj

Apologies to those outside the UK who can't use this link. It's Andy Kershaw in North Korea.

looking_around

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Watch this OP (and others) it's a documentary on western culture made by the North Koreans.

http://youtu.be/R0mwCtzv9PM

Ignore the first 30 seconds and give it 5 minutes. It's actually funny enough to watch their perception of things and aspects of our society. The Oprah bit had me laughing.

It has actually not been made by the N.Koreans & is therefore NOT their perception of our society
Was made in New Zealand, as a "mockumentary"

http://www.3news.co.nz/Mockumentary-sparks-Korean-spy-controversy/tabid/1771/articleID/293690/Default.aspx
http://www.thebigidea.co.nz/news/tbi-qna/128911-mockumentary-mop-up

Just felt that should be out there.

Crooked Jack

Me and old hippy rarely see eye to eye but he has a point here.

old hippy

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Me and old hippy rarely see eye to eye but he has a point here.

Noted, Jack. Noted

ballsymchugh

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Me and old hippy rarely see eye to eye but he has a point here.

no he doesn't.

people in the USA have the opportunity to protest, disagree and vote.
if you do that in DPRK, you're sent to 're-education' camps

old hippy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

no he doesn't.

people in the USA have the opportunity to protest, disagree and vote.
if you do that in DPRK, you're sent to 're-education' camps

I'm not denying that at all. I'm focussing on the similarities, rather. The nature of conditioning and all that it entails.

For instance, I'm sure there are many here who are conditioned to have an affinity with Americans, as opposed to North Koreans. Even though the latter probably suffer worse than the former. Our sympathies usually seem to lie with Americans.

ballsymchugh

old hippy wrote: »

I'm not denying that at all. I'm focussing on the similarities, rather. The nature of conditioning and all that it entails.

For instance, I'm sure there are many here who are conditioned to have an affinity with Americans, as opposed to North Koreans. Even though the latter probably suffer worse than the former. Our sympathies usually seem to lie with Americans.

you can extend conditioning to every country in the world then. everyone will shout for their home, except for self loathing west brits

old hippy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

you can extend conditioning to every country in the world then. everyone will shout for their home, except for self loathing west brits

Indeed we could. The conditioning that leads some to use the term "west brit", for example

I'm curious about the conditioning that goes on in DPKR & USA, mind.

conorhal

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

Not really, celebrating the fact that a veil of threat and terror has been lifted from your streets with the apprehension of the perpetrators of a terrorist atrocity that murdered innocent children is a perfectly human and legit reaction as far as I'm concerned, as is proudly desplaying the fact that you remain unbowed by those that would try to subvert everything you believe in.

Only an idiot tries to draw a parallel with N. Korea's mandatory nationalism, it's you're knee jerk reactionary and repulsive attitude to such scenes that's actually disgusting, it says more about your pathetic insecurities then it does about them.

SEPT 23 1989

Old Hippy = Neil from The Young Ones

EuskalHerria

looking_around wrote: »

It has actually not been made by the N.Koreans & is therefore NOT their perception of our society
Was made in New Zealand, as a "mockumentary"

http://www.3news.co.nz/Mockumentary-sparks-Korean-spy-controversy/tabid/1771/articleID/293690/Default.aspx
http://www.thebigidea.co.nz/news/tbi-qna/128911-mockumentary-mop-up

Just felt that should be out there.

I was happier in my ignorance. Death to the west!

Jimmy Macnulty

donvito99 wrote: »

She'll be calling around sixteen.

I think.

Chasing Connie around the field

crockholm

Yet if they were all chanting "Allahu Akbar" you'd be in here defending them and calling everyone racist.

WilyCoyote

Idiotic Old Bore.

ballsymchugh

old hippy wrote: »

Indeed we could. The conditioning that leads some to use the term "west brit", for example

I'm curious about the conditioning that goes on in DPKR & USA, mind.

basic conditioning in DPRK would centre on the Kim family. they believe that Kim Jong Il was born on a sacred mountain 'Mt Paekdu', where more likely he was born in a refugee camp in russia somewhere during japanese occupation.

have a look at DPRK propaganda posters, these are everywhere around pyongyang, especially the ones where they show the USA as agressors and an NK fist crushing american missiles or soldiers.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dprk+propaganda+posters&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8LZ_UZSyJYKq0QW76YC4Ag&sqi=2&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=923

Paulzx

old hippy wrote: »

Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.



Odd, that.

No, not like North Korea. If an American is ignorant of what is going on in the rest of the world it is through choice. He is free to gather as much or as little information as he wishes.

North Koreans are ignorant of what happens outside their country due to state controlled media and no access to free information.

America is by no means utopia and probabaly not somewhere i wish to live but to compare it to North Korea is completely off the wall

Playboy

We tend to forget that the United States in historical terms is a relatively young nation. In young nations nationalism and patriotism is always stronger as the society is still evolving and the connection to the founding myths or fathers is still close. When a young nation becomes an empire then the nation purposefully promotes itself internally and externally in order to justify its imperialistic actions to others. America (or Ancient Rome, the British) will always be crusading for what is right or good as politically it makes it easier when defending its self interests agressively. It has nothing to do with America or Americans but everything to do with the sociological development of an Empire nation. Whilst we may find the chants of USA, USA distasteful they are merely a product of historical circumstances that is repeated ad infinitum. I wouldnt personally get worked about it

ballsymchugh

Paulzx wrote: »

No, not like North Korea. If an American is ignorant of what is going on in the rest of the world it is through choice. He is free to gather as much or as little information as he wishes.

North Koreans are ignorant of what happens outside (and inside) their country due to state controlled media and no access to free information.

America is by no means utopia and probabaly not somewhere i wish to live but to compare it to North Korea is completely off the wall

fyp.

needing documents to travel from one end of your country to the other and passing through military checkpoints doesn't help in DPRK either

Temptamperu

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Watch this OP (and others) it's a documentary on western culture made by the North Koreans.

http://youtu.be/R0mwCtzv9PM

Ignore the first 30 seconds and give it 5 minutes. It's actually funny enough to watch their perception of things and aspects of our society. The Oprah bit had me laughing.

They arent exactly lying about any of america's activities, I have given it 15 minutes and what they are saying is true. Its funny, but its also true.

discus

boards.ie should have a mechanism where posting/viewing in Conspiracy Theories disables your ability to post anywhere else.

Keeps most of us happy, and gives the CT idiots another paranoia-fest to keep them occupied.

Crooked Jack

ballsymchugh wrote: »

no he doesn't.

people in the USA have the opportunity to protest, disagree and vote.
if you do that in DPRK, you're sent to 're-education' camps

I dont think he's saying they're the exact same, merely highlighting some similarities between their feverish, almost fanatical versions of patriotism and the attitudes, though not necessarily actions, directed at those who dont buy into it.

Dyr

Its fairly disgusting, why were they happy to just stand there chanting when they could have rushed the ambulance and lynched your man. Not so much as a shoe thrown, Americans and their rule of law pfftt

conorhal

conorhal wrote: »

Not really, celebrating the fact that a veil of threat and terror has been lifted from your streets with the apprehension of the perpetrators of a terrorist atrocity that murdered innocent children is a perfectly human and legit reaction as far as I'm concerned

Quite right.

I'm delighted Americans are celebrating their survival.

I'm really delighted that if the terrorists greatest weapon is the threat of further terror, that ordinary Yanks are showing they are unafraid, unbowed, and won't be quietened, and that those pictures will be looked at by people who would like nothing more than to see them afraid, bowed, and stilled.

We're all conditioned to be proud and patriotic to some extent and nothing fosters patriotism more than having your way of life and freedoms threatened by outside forces.

Contrary to popular opinion in AH, I happen to think the Americans have a lot to be proud of and that most of us have a lot to be grateful to them for. Many Irish people turned to the US for a better life, many in Europe work for US firms, all of us appreciate some, if not most of their popular culture. We have the Yanks to thank for many of the freedoms we take for granted and the map of Europe would look very different if it weren't for them.

old hippy

conorhal wrote: »

Not really, celebrating the fact that a veil of threat and terror has been lifted from your streets with the apprehension of the perpetrators of a terrorist atrocity that murdered innocent children is a perfectly human and legit reaction as far as I'm concerned, as is proudly desplaying the fact that you remain unbowed by those that would try to subvert everything you believe in.

Only an idiot tries to draw a parallel with N. Korea's mandatory nationalism, it's you're knee jerk reactionary and repulsive attitude to such scenes that's actually disgusting, it says more about your pathetic insecurities then it does about them.

We're talking about conditioning, perhaps the personal attacks can be kept to a minimum?

If you don't see any similarities between the two countries, that's fine. Dissent is allowed

I'd also say that US nationalism, if not mandatory, certainly feels like it.

kowloon

Bitching about the government is the national sport in the USA. They put us to shame, but in North Korea it's a ticket to a happy camp where you'll receive the best of care and recreational facilities.

old hippy

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Idiotic Old Bore.

Fascinating contribution, cheers

9959

Nationalism of any stripe is a load of tosh, whether it be North Korean, American, Irish or English, 'my country right or wrong' and all that bollocks.

Dyr

9959 wrote: »

Nationalism of any stripe is a load of tosh, whether it be North Korean, American, Irish or English, 'my country right or wrong' and all that bollocks.

Except thats not nationalism of course.

brandon_flowers

1. Merika is a good example of where media controls opinions. Out of sight out of mind. Don't report what the people don't need to know. Most regional news stations will have one of two stories about Obama's policies and then loads of local stories. Much like local radio stations in Ireland.

Except when you blow that up (may be the wrong term to use) the national broadcasters like Fox and CBS mainly report national issues and a few international issues with a nice slant. People are free to make up an opinion but they are gently guided in the way in which their opinion is formed.

2. In North Korea are not allowed have a TV that you can tune away from government stations.

General General

US is clearly superior. They've even got "US" as an abb'n for their nation.

old hippy

Bambi wrote: »

Except thats not nationalism of course.

Except that it is, of course. Not exclusively but it's part of the whole nationalism bobbins.

Ruu

I blame Jim Duggan, that 2x4 wielding bastid!

Rented Mule

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvpxVE_kQXg

The 1991 NHL All Star Game at the Chicago Stadium. This is something that has been happening going back to the mid-80s.

donegal_road

from his book, Propaganda and the Public Mind, Noam Chomsky 'discusses prospects for building a movement to challenge corporate domination of the media, the environment, and even our private lives.'

I know it is long, but for anyone with a remote interest in the topic, even 10 minutes is worth it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHU2AVcK5l8

Wompa1

old hippy wrote: »

Watching the whooping and hollering mob in Boston the other week - "USA!USA!USA!" After the initial disgust, I realised that that kind of behaviour, whilst repulsive, is hardly surprising.

Like North Korea, many in the US are conditioned to think of their country as superior, uber alles, if you like. Like NK, many Americans are totally isolated from the rest of the world and know little what happens outside of their country.

Like NK, these scenes of mass hysteria become less unfathomable when you probe the nature of growing up and being indoctrinated into life in the shadow of the flag. Whether it's pledging allegiance to said flag, or (in NK) polishing your pictures of the Kim dynasty - there's a strange kind of similarity between the two entities.

Both Governments play the propaganda machine and both believe themselves to be the centre of the universe.

Odd, that.

I've been living in the US for a year and three months now. I would agree with the idea that people here are 'conditioned' but not in the ways that you suggest. I'm not sure why you think the way you do, I would guess you are on the outside looking in. I don't know anything about North Korea other than from documentaries and articles, if what I read is true than a key difference that you didn't allude to. You say Americans are isolated? Since I got here I have worked with a few Mexians, Canadians, a Phillipino lady, a Russian guy, A Japanese guy, a Chinese guy, A Switz guy, A Uganda fella, A few Brits, A French guy....not all that isolated, if you ask me! Pretty much every article I have read from journalists going into North Korea is armed guards and North Korean people having never seen a 'Westerner' before. Not the same...

old hippy

Wompa1 wrote: »

I've been living in the US for a year and three months now. I would agree with the idea that people here are 'conditioned' but not in the ways that you suggest. I'm not sure why you think the way you do, I would guess you are on the outside looking in. I don't know anything about North Korea other than from documentaries and articles, if what I read is true than a key difference that you didn't allude to. You say Americans are isolated? Since I got here I have worked with a few Mexians, Canadians, a Phillipino lady, a Russian guy, A Japanese guy, a Chinese guy, A Switz guy, A Uganda fella, A few Brits, A French guy....not all that isolated, if you ask me! Pretty much every article I have read from journalists going into North Korea is armed guards and North Korean people having never seen a 'Westerner' before. Not the same...

Let me clarify a few things. I've been to the States several times, my mom is American & I mostly love the place. I am suggesting that there are parallels/similarities in the forms of indoctrination the people go through in order to be taught to love their country. I am not, for one minute, suggesting it's exactly the same as DPRK.

You've worked with a number of people from different countries; that's great - they can offer their fellow workers a different perspective. But many Americans can be quite isolated as to what's happening outside of their country. I found that in Texas, Georgia and Hawaii (possibly one of the most diverse places on Earth). "Was Ireland in London?", "What part of Australia is that?", "Are you a GI?" etc etc. Now, that's my personal anecdotage and I wouldn't apply it to all Americans, of course.

But watching news footage over there, when it comes to outside the US - some of the reports feel like they're covering stories from Mars.

Wompa1

old hippy wrote: »

Let me clarigy a few things. I've been to the States several times, my mom is American & I mostly love the place. I am suggesting that there are parallels/similarities in the forms of indoctrination the people go through in order to be taught to love their country. I am not, for one minute, suggesting it's exactly the same as DPRK.

You've worked with a number of people from different countries; that's great - they can offer their fellow workers a different perspective. But many Americans can be quite isolated as to what's happening outside of their country. I found that in Texas, Georgia and Hawaii (possibly one of the most diverse places on Earth). "Was Ireland in London?", "What part of Australia is that?", "Are you a GI?" etc etc. Now, that's my personal anecdotage and I wouldn't apply it to all Americans, of course.

But watching news footage over there, when it comes to outside the US - some of the reports feel like they're covering stories from Mars.

Ok, go on a college campus in Ireland with a map of the United States and ask somebody to point out where Montanna is. Ask what is the captial city of Florida. Ask what state Washington D.C is in. That's my personal anecdote. The Irish are highly educated, it does not mean we are somehow more progressive or culturally aware as a group. These Youtube videos that get lobbied around about asking Americans questions about politics, geography etc. An ex girlfriend of mine thought that the clock tower in London was called Uncle Ben, she didn't follow any current events, had no idea what happened in World War 1 or World War 2 and couldn't pick out Longford on a map, let alone somewhere in the states like Washington State. And AND! she was a PHD student in the University in Galway.

I get that the people who will post on this thread are likely pretty intelligent and opinionated but I'm sure everybody knows people like my ex. Because I know plenty more Irish people that are just like her.

Kolido

Wompa1 wrote: »

Ok, go on a college campus in Ireland with a map of the United States and ask somebody to point out where Montanna is. Ask what is the captial city of Florida. Ask what state Washington D.C is in. That's my personal anecdote. The Irish are highly educated, it does not mean we are somehow more progressive or culturally aware as a group. These Youtube videos that get lobbied around about asking Americans questions about politics, geography etc. An ex girlfriend of mine thought that the clock tower in London was called Uncle Ben, she didn't follow any current events, had no idea what happened in World War 1 or World War 2 and couldn't pick out Longford on a map, let alone somewhere in the states like Washington State. And AND! she was a PHD student in the University in Galway.

I get that the people who will post on this thread are likely pretty intelligent and opinionated but I'm sure everybody knows people like my ex. Because I know plenty more Irish people that are just like her.

Blonde?

shruikan2553

I did my first year of school in the US. Having 5 year old children swearing allegiance to the flag was odd, my parents got me out of it but we were white Irish/English Christians so probably given a bit more leeway in terms of patriotism.

Each state is run like a country so most americans can live their entire lives going on holidays and working within the country so a knowledge of life outside of that isn't needed but they could do a bit better on learning stuff that doesn't involve america.