Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

fall · 27-04-2013 03:20PM

sharper wrote: »

The private sector has been facing cuts the whole way through. Every single compulsory job loss off the crisis has been in the private sector.

Ever seen those figures concerning GDP being down? Jobs being lost? Workers forced onto 3 day weeks? That's all the private sector.

It's beyond ridiculous you think now the private sector is facing cuts and now suddenly they'll unite with a bunch of people that have no notion of that.[/QUOTE

But they do know. What about the teachers who have been let go? Just because they weren't permanent they aren't heard about. Also watch the live register rise again in June and July as teachers without contracts sign on as they try to get work over the summer. They then try to get back into the system again in September.
We are all under attack. It is not a competition. There is a protected minority who have not been impacted by austerity eg. Top bankers, TDs, rte presenters, semi state bosses etc.
We should be united against them. I don't care what sector anyone is in.

sharper · 27-04-2013 03:25PM

fall wrote: »

But they do know. What about the teachers who have been let go? Just because they weren't permanent[...]

No need to quote any further is there? People on contracts didn't have them renewed. The whole point of a contract is there are well understand timelines on which the contract can be renewed or not.

We should be united against them. I don't care what sector anyone is in.

The difference is private sector workers cannot resist cuts because they cannot force people to buy their products nor force them to pay higher prices to pay for it all.

You can't make people buy the products of the company I work for and all the strikes in the world won't change that.

That's the difference.

fall · 27-04-2013 03:32PM

So people stop buying your product your work load decreases and so does you wage.
Public sector workload has not decreased and our product is very much in demand. So essentially you are saying you deserve your pay cut. Nice

sharper · 27-04-2013 03:37PM

fall wrote: »

So people stop buying your product your work load decreases and so does you wage.

Oh well that's ok then!

Public sector workload has not decreased and our product is very much in demand. So essentially you are saying you deserve your pay cut. Nice

Your product is in demand because

1. You have a government mandated monopoly

2. The price you charge (i.e. taxes and whatever fees) have the force of law.

If you want to be subject to market forces (i.e. more demand = higher wages for you) then I'm fine with that but it means you lose #1 and #2. You have no basis whatsoever to say your services are in demand because there is literally and often legally no other choice.

Pick one option or the other because you can't have both as much as the public tries to (e.g. "benchmarking" in the good times, strikes in the bad times to resist cuts).

clairefontaine · 27-04-2013 03:40PM

Im sorry if this is off topic, I don't know where to ask this. Are the teachers going to strike?

Has anyone seen this before and knows what will happen?

I saw this article today:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-teachers-plan-school-strike-chaos-in-pay-battle-29225442.html

sharper · 27-04-2013 03:43PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Im sorry if this is off topic, I don't know where to ask this. Are the teachers going to strike?

It's extremely unlikely the current situation is going to be resolved without widespread strikes. The government has no choice but to impose cuts if they can't be agreed (the next round of funding is contingent on this) and the unions insist they're not going to take any cuts.

clairefontaine · 27-04-2013 03:53PM

sharper wrote: »

It's extremely unlikely the current situation is going to be resolved without widespread strikes. The government has no choice but to impose cuts if they can't be agreed (the next round of funding is contingent on this) and the unions insist they're not going to take any cuts.

How long do these thing last? Does it mean the schools close down?

sharper · 27-04-2013 03:56PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

How long do these thing last? Does it mean the schools close down?

It's impossible to say. The unions will likely want to minimise loss of earnings for their members so outright strikes will probably be limited.

vinylbomb · 27-04-2013 03:56PM

donalg1 wrote: »

..... if austerity is to be defeated then a united front is required. However some seem intent on calling for further cuts to certain sectors, when as I already said you can't tax your way out of a recession.

Austerity is the reduction of spending on services.
This primarily affects the public sector.

Rises in taxation work in tandem with austerity to reduce the deficit in spending.
This affects everyone.

They are mutually exclusive.

I'm not sure you've grasped this point.

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 03:58PM

sharper wrote: »

The company I work for produces products for the export market. Are we going to get my company's international customers and competitors on board with this too?

You will need to ask them that.

ardmacha · 27-04-2013 04:00PM

Your product is in demand because

1. You have a government mandated monopoly

2. The price you charge (i.e. taxes and whatever fees) have the force of law.

If you want to be subject to market forces (i.e. more demand = higher wages for you) then I'm fine with that but it means you lose #1 and #2. You have no basis whatsoever to say your services are in demand because there is literally and often legally no other choice.

This is spin. Services such as health, education or security remain in demand regardless of whether they are publicly provided or not. The prices charged are indeed regulated by the government, who wish to give them away to curry favour with the voters. But even where prices are not greatly subsidised or regulated, e.g. Masters degrees or certain health procedures, the products offered by publicly funded organisations in Ireland are in demand not only by Irish people but people from other countries who have many alternatives.

sharper · 27-04-2013 04:08PM

ardmacha wrote: »

This is spin. Services such as health, education or security remain in demand regardless of whether they are publicly provided or not.

The services are in demand but all service providers are not necessarily in demand. It depends on the quality of the service provided and the price charged.

I need a passport but I don't necessarily need the one provided by the government run passport office at the price charged except for the fact I can't get one any other way.

the products offered by publicly funded organisations in Ireland are in demand not only by Irish people but people from other countries who have many alternatives.

Which services are you talking about here? Public services are not offered internationally and if you mean "Well they could leave the country and avail of services somewhere else" then you're forced to show the quality of Irish public services are what's keeping them here and not any other issue.

sharper · 27-04-2013 04:17PM

donalg1 wrote: »

You will need to ask them that.

In other words no. Your intention is to raise costs within the domestic economy in a country for whom exports are the life blood that brings wealth.

Or to put it another way, an outrageously bad idea for everyone's standard of living.

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 04:29PM

sharper wrote: »

In other words no. Your intention is to raise costs within the domestic economy in a country for whom exports are the life blood that brings wealth.

Or to put it another way, an outrageously bad idea for everyone's standard of living.

No in other words or in exact words you will need to ask them how could I possibly say what people I don't know would do in a hypothetical situation.

Stop putting words in my mouth and stop answering questions for me when I have already answered them

sharper · 27-04-2013 04:33PM

donalg1 wrote: »

No in other words or in exact words you will need to ask them how could I possibly say what people I don't know would do in a hypothetical situation.

Well you're the one saying we're all in this together and we need a united front.

As soon as I presented you with a problem which affects me but not you your response is essentially that it's my problem to solve and none of your concern.

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 04:47PM

sharper wrote: »

Well you're the one saying we're all in this together and we need a united front.

As soon as I presented you with a problem which affects me but not you your response is essentially that it's my problem to solve and none of your concern.

I told you to ask them. If you give me their numbers email addresses or other contact details ill think about doing it for you.

Again how do I know what they would do in a hypothetical situation, considering I don't know who they are, and I know nothing about them, and I know nothing about their personal views on such subjects.

Your question was actually pretty pointless.

sharper · 27-04-2013 05:16PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Your question was actually pretty pointless.

It's of concern to the entire export sector.

ParkRunner · 27-04-2013 05:23PM

Two weeks to come up with a deal to get the required savings or the government will legislate for pay cuts it seems.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0427/386928-croke-park/

I don't see why each area in the public sector cannot just be given a lower budget to spend and put the responsibility on senior management, along with stronger powers to manage performance, to find the savings. Waste still does exist in the public sector, not to extent of €1bn, but there are still a lot of measures which can be taken by individual sectors to make savings before going after pay and working conditions in a blanket way.

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 05:34PM

sharper wrote: »

It's of concern to the entire export sector.

That may be so but its pointless asking me the question for the reasons already stated in my previous posts.

sharper · 27-04-2013 05:37PM

donalg1 wrote: »

That may be so but its pointless asking me the question for the reasons already stated in my previous posts.

Then why should anyone heed your call for unity? You have a set of solutions which will work out great for the public sector (no cuts) but you don't know how to make it work for the private sector.

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 05:47PM

sharper wrote: »

Then why should anyone heed your call for unity? You have a set of solutions which will work out great for the public sector (no cuts) but you don't know how to make it work for the private sector.

Well I'd imagine an end to austerity would be a good thing for everyone private and public.

Seems you want cuts in the public sector so as to ensure private sector wages are left alone

sharper · 27-04-2013 05:58PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Seems you want cuts in the public sector so as to ensure private sector wages are left alone

My point is private sector wages have not, are not and will not be left alone. They fluctuate constantly in relation to how well the economy is doing. Private sector workers have little choice about this because they cannot compel others to employ them and their employer cannot compel people to buy their products.

You lack a fundamental understanding of how the world works outside of the bubble of government protection. You want people to join you and help you to address your problems but you offer nothing in return.

sean200 · 27-04-2013 06:26PM

so there is no support from the public???
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/poll-says-30-want-govt-to-cut-public-service-pay-but-half-of-electorate-is-opposed-592703.html
With the latest bulling by the government all union should ballot for all out strike and teach idiots like Enda Kenny a lesson
Enda Kenny seems to spends most of the time going to GAA matches and Races
Bring it on

sean200 · 27-04-2013 06:32PM

EF wrote: »

Two weeks to come up with a deal to get the required savings or the government will legislate for pay cuts it seems.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0427/386928-croke-park/

I don't see why each area in the public sector cannot just be given a lower budget to spend and put the responsibility on senior management, along with stronger powers to manage performance, to find the savings. Waste still does exist in the public sector, not to extent of €1bn, but there are still a lot of measures which can be taken by individual sectors to make savings before going after pay and working conditions in a blanket way.

It not about that
It is about reform such as the longer working week which will reduce the cost for ever that is where the big saving will me made in the long term
I now see a all out strike the public will turn on the government as can be see in the poll 2mor and when a private sector worker has to take time off work to mind the kids as the school is closed then you will see anger towards FG and the other idiots called labour

sean200 · 27-04-2013 06:40PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

How long do these thing last? Does it mean the schools close down?

From what i hear from people involved it will be as follows
1 Day a week for 5 weeks on a different day each week ( resulting in a 20% pay loss or 10% loss of take home pay
If not resolved it will go to 2 day a week for 2 weeks and if need be all out after that
This would case chaos in the private sector
And that is just the teachers wait till they can collect a property tax because of the CPSU

donalg1 · 27-04-2013 07:24PM

sharper wrote: »

My point is private sector wages have not, are not and will not be left alone. They fluctuate constantly in relation to how well the economy is doing. Private sector workers have little choice about this because they cannot compel others to employ them and their employer cannot compel people to buy their products.

You lack a fundamental understanding of how the world works outside of the bubble of government protection. You want people to join you and help you to address your problems but you offer nothing in return.

Not all wages fluctuate with the economy in the private sector, many people I know haven't seen any decreases in their wages and I haven't either.

As for me lacking a fundamental understanding of how the world works, well it appears its you that lacks a fundamental understanding of both economics and my circumstances.

hmmm · 27-04-2013 08:13PM

sean200 wrote: »

This would case chaos in the private sector

Well as long as you're clear on who you're targeting. I can't see this spineless government doing anything however, not with Labour involved.

sean200 · 27-04-2013 08:16PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Not all wages fluctuate with the economy in the private sector, many people I know haven't seen any decreases in their wages and I haven't either.

As for me lacking a fundamental understanding of how the world works, well it appears its you that lacks a fundamental understanding of both economics and my circumstances.

i tell you how it works
i was a member of a gym but because my wages might be cut i decided last week not to renew it.
The private sector employer or owner of the gym rang me on friday and as good as begged me to renew it and keep lowering the price.
I told him my reason again and he said he understood
In our conversation he said he was losing a lot of member that worked in my work place and said he was going to have to let staff go so hence more people on the dole
well done you FG /labour idiots

sean200 · 27-04-2013 08:20PM

hmmm wrote: »

Well as long as you're clear on who you're targeting. I can't see this spineless government doing anything however, not with Labour involved.

I hope they act and cut pay as i know it will be the end of them and all their lies
Yes FG might be back in power but there will be at least 20 of them sacked, kenny would not be leader and labour will be wiped out
So yes i would take a pay cut just to achieve this

hmmm · 27-04-2013 08:20PM

sean200 wrote: »

In our conversation he said he was losing a lot of member that worked in my work place and said he was going to have to let staff go so hence more people on the dole
well done you FG /labour idiots

Yeah, they should cut back further on spending on health, and raise everyone's taxes so that you can keep going to the gym. Damn them and their spending priorities. Will anyone think of the farmer's markets and new car dealers?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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