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mandatory ID cards:

123578

Comments

  • #122
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    who the fug wrote: »
    In the unlikely event of your scenario all I have to do is jump in the squad car , go home and produce passport (if I am not carrying my driving license) , no need for more laws, which our criminal brethren will drive a coach and horse through assisted by the legal profession , whilst both laugh all the way to the bank

    That makes absolutely no sense.

    First off, it's not an unlikely scenario. It happens virtually every day of the week.

    Secondly, why would the guards oblige you by driving you home? Suppose you are arrested in Dublin but live in Cork?

    Thirdly, do you think the Attourney General will not scrutinise the legislation before it is brought before the Oireachtas? Do you think she is less competent that other legal eagles?


  • #123
    who the fug
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Valetta wrote: »
    That makes absolutely no sense.

    First off, it's not an unlikely scenario. It happens virtually every day of the week.

    Secondly, why would the guards oblige you by driving you home? Suppose you are arrested in Dublin but live in Cork?

    Thirdly, do you think the Attourney General will not scrutinise the legislation before it is brought before the Oireachtas? Do you think she is less competent that other legal eagles?

    It makes as much sense as you won't be stopped unless you are up to something.

    Arrested in Dublin live in Cork , length of time that will take is down to your attitude with the police. Also back in the eighties coppers never had much problem sussing me out in that scenario you brought up, without any ID card or taking me to the station

    Attorney General gives advice and politicians have been known to ignore that advice


  • #124
    bhamsteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭bhamsteve


    I think that most people in favor of the compulsory ID card are under the assumption that it will not be them who is stopped on a daily basis and asked to produce it, because of their ethnicity and social standing.
    This argument reminds me of the stop and search laws in the UK which caused huge riots across several cities in the 1980s, when the police powers were applied disproportionately to black people.


  • #125
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    bhamsteve wrote: »
    I think that most people in favor of the compulsory ID card are under the assumption that it will not be them who is stopped on a daily basis and asked to produce it, because of their ethnicity and social standing.
    This argument reminds me of the stop and search laws in the UK which caused huge riots across several cities in the 1980s, when the police powers were applied disproportionately to black people.

    But people can be and are stopped on a daily basis already.

    Having a recognised ID card will just make the process easier for everyone involved.


  • #126
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »

    What's wrong woth giving your name if you have nothing to hide?

    What if I have something to hide, nothing illegal but some reason not to want the authorities to know my details.


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  • #127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    What if I have something to hide, nothing illegal but some reason not to want the authorities to know my details.

    Give me an example, if one exists.

    An ID would change nothing in this regard anyway, as it stands you have to give your details if asked for them by a Guard or customs officer for instance.


  • #128
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,959 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    What if I have something to hide, nothing illegal but some reason not to want the authorities to know my details.
    the authorities already are cross referencing your info on the social welfare, HSE, revenue and every other database they have and they can match you using your PPS nr or simply your name(and similar names) and date of birth .

    I see no difference what a national Id card makes that is only a more handy version of a passport that is valid for all short haul trips around europe.

    Obviously if there was associated laws to stop and search and whatnot then thats a different question, but the card itsself is harmless.


  • #129
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Give me an example, if one exists.

    An ID would change nothing in this regard anyway, as it stands you have to give your details if asked for them by a Guard or customs officer for instance.

    No you don't have to just give them to a Guard, only in very specific circumstance are you obliged to give your name and address to a Guard.


    An example of why I would not want my details recorded.

    I am married to a Guard and am having an affair with her sister. The only reason I would be in the area I had my details taken would have been to see her sister, details entered onto pulse, the wife finds out, my privacy violated.


  • #130
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    I find it interesting that people actually think ID cards act as some sort of deterrent to crime.


  • #131
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    No you don't have to just give them to a Guard, only in very specific circumstance are you obliged to give your name and address to a Guard.


    An example of why I would not want my details recorded.

    I am married to a Guard and am having an affair with her sister. The only reason I would be in the area I had my details taken would have been to see her sister, details entered onto pulse, the wife finds out, my privacy violated.

    You must be able to identify yourself to a guard if requested. Otherwise you can be held until they are satisfied as to your identity.

    Do you really think national legislation should be influenced by the scenario you outlined above? Really?


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  • #132
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Valetta wrote: »
    You must be able to identify yourself to a guard if requested.

    Yes Garda , My name is Godwin Hitler , and I live at Loveley House in Deadly Town my PPS is 1234567 V , Garda checks in PULSE , ID confirmed.

    Simple , no need for ID.


  • #133
    nomdeboardie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭nomdeboardie


    godwin wrote: »
    ... Godwin Hitler ...
    :D


  • #134
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Valetta wrote: »
    How are the Gardai supposed to know that you are minding your own business ant not about to commit a crime?

    Say you fit the discription of a known criminal that they are looking for.

    Which would you prefer:
    a) Identify yourself as a law abiding citizen with a recognised form of identification and be on your way in moments.

    b) Be taken down to the station on suspicion of being someone else and held until the guards are satisfied that you are who you say you are.

    I think national ID cards are a great idea, but then I'm just a reasonable law abiding person and not paranoid.

    The sheer unlikelyhood of this ever happening means I would prefer to take the inconvenience of having to go with them, rather than being forced to carry ID with me everywhere and treated as if I am a criminal before I ever come into contact with the Gardaí.

    Believe it or not, I'm also a reasonable law-abiding person (have NEVER had to deal with police anywhere), but that is no argument for this.


  • #135
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    They rarely if ever do but they may ask you if you witnessed something etc and may ask your name in a situation like that.

    You are often asked you name when driving, again a totally reasonable thing in my eyes but some people would nearly rather to get arrested than give anything away.

    What's wrong woth giving your name if you have nothing to hide?

    You have your driving licence for that. What is the point in introducing more mandatory ID in that scenario?


  • #136
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    Herb Powell wrote: »
    The sheer unlikelyhood of this ever happening means I would prefer to take the inconvenience of having to go with them, rather than being forced to carry ID with me everywhere and treated as if I am a criminal before I ever come into contact with the Gardaí.

    Believe it or not, I'm also a reasonable law-abiding person (have NEVER had to deal with police anywhere), but that is no argument for this.

    How would you be treated as a criminal before you ever came in contact with the Gardaí?


  • #137
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Valetta wrote: »
    You must be able to identify yourself to a guard if requested. Otherwise you can be held until they are satisfied as to your identity.

    Do you really think national legislation should be influenced by the scenario you outlined above? Really?

    You need to read up on your rights before you loose them.

    I was asked for an example.


  • #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »

    An example of why I would not want my details recorded.

    I am married to a Guard and am having an affair with her sister. The only reason I would be in the area I had my details taken would have been to see her sister, details entered onto pulse, the wife finds out, my privacy violated.

    You would be obliged to give your details to a guard in this situation as it stands. I've seen people arrested for refusing to give their details when asked repeatedly.

    I'd also happily see you get caught out in the above situation.


  • #139
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    You would be obliged to give your details to a guard in this situation as it stands. I've seen people arrested for refusing to give their details when asked repeatedly.

    I'd also happily see you get caught out in in the above situation.



    So function creep has set in already. Moral and legal enforcement.

    Sure what could go wrong.


  • #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    So function creep has set in already. Moral and legal enforcement.

    Sure what could go wrong.

    Its not moral enforcement, you are not being questioned because of what you are doing, it would just be found out by chance.

    As it stands if you were stopped by a Guard in the above situation and asked for you details for whatever reason what would you do?


  • #141
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    Its not moral enforcement, you are not being questioned because of what you are doing, it would just be found out by chance.

    As it stands if you were stopped by a Guard in the above situation and asked for you details for whatever reason what would you do?

    Ask was he making a legal demand if so under what legislation. ? if so give my name and address as obliged by law. If not carry on my way.


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  • #142
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    RustyNut wrote: »
    Ask was he making a legal demand if so under what legislation. ? if so give my name and address as obliged by law. If not carry on my way.

    He can give any number of reasons, you will just end up arrested at that messing.

    Its one thing that really is a sign of an absolute bol*ocks, stating crap like "under what legislation" instead of answering a few simple questions and going on your way. Its the type of carry on you expect from a scumbag not a normal person with a bit of cop on.


  • #143
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Jolene Uninterested Moon wrote: »
    He can give any number of reasons, you will just end up arrested at that messing.

    Its one thing that really is a sign of an absolute bol*ocks, stating crap like "under what legislation" instead of answering a few simple questions and going on your way. Its the type of carry on you expect from a scumbag not a normal person with a bit of cop on.

    So you're saying people who make use of their civil rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are scumbags?


  • #144
    Arcsin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭Arcsin


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    So you're saying people who make use of their civil rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are scumbags?

    Gardai are experts at telling the difference between someone asking a reasonable question and someone doing their very best to be as difficult as possible. How they treat you is generally a reflection of your attitude towards them.


  • #145
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Arcsin wrote: »
    Gardai are experts at telling the difference between someone asking a reasonable question and someone doing their very best to be as difficult as possible. How they treat you is generally a reflection of your attitude towards them.

    Agreed with everything except the expert part.

    But what's that got to do with the post you quoted?


  • #146
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    No. What's the need?

    We already have stuff like Passport, driver's license etc. for identification...


  • #147
    Arcsin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭Arcsin


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    Agreed with everything except the expert part.

    But what's that got to do with the post you quoted?

    Every day guards deal with people who use every piece of legislation they can think of to make a simple interaction as difficult as possible.

    They also deal with people who will ask a genuine question about why they are stopped or searched, but who generally co operate.

    They are very good at telling the two types of people apart, you could say they are experts at it.


  • #148
    godwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    Arcsin wrote: »
    Every day guards deal with people who use every piece of legislation they can think of to make a simple interaction as difficult as possible.

    So people who try to exercise their rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are being difficult?
    This is the attitude I don't understand , how is exercising your rights as a citizen ever wrong? People want ID cards for the betterment of society but in the same breath they criticize others for availing of rules dictated by the same society.


  • #149
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,774 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    godwin wrote: »
    So you're saying people who stand up for their civil rights as laid out in the constitution of this country are scumbags?

    Honestly if you think giving your name to a guard is such a massive invasion of your civil rights then you have serious mental issues.


  • #150
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    Valetta wrote: »
    How would you be treated as a criminal before you ever came in contact with the Gardaí?

    Because the only argument I have seen being repeated is the "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" crock.


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  • #151
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    No. If no, justify your answer.
    Herb Powell wrote: »
    Because the only argument I have seen being repeated is the "If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear" crock.

    I have nothing to hide as it stands and I don't feel like I'm treated as a criminal.

    Having to carry an ID card won't change that.

    It seems to me that some people try as much as possible to be awkward just for the sake of it.

    If there were less of these then all these regulations might not be needed.


This discussion has been closed.
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