mandatory ID cards:

Chemical Burn

OK, folks. I know this has been done to death before, but all the threads are years old and / or have since been locked. I was reading the thread which says that the fine members of AGS have since been given an even bigger workload because of this bureaucratic nonsense which states that they have to prove beggars don't have a license rather than the beggars proving that they do. If the Garda sees one, there is no way on Earth of proving who they are or whether they were apprehended before.

This can go for other crimes, a person can abscond after a crime and run out of the country. A person can be a serial offender etc. If a person (who is suspected of being in the country illegally) or of having committed a crime is stopped, there is no way of removing them or proving that, so the Garda has to let them go. If they are arrested to prove their ID, if this can not be conclusively proven after 24 hours, they Garda must let them go, as a Garda can only hold someone for up to 24 hours before having to let them free.

There are a certain group of people notorious for begging (we all know who, no need to say it, bans, etc) and these people sometimes come from non-EU states, such as Moldova and other non-EU, EEA, Schengen states. If ID cards are brought in, then their identity can be proven. I believe in the (I know it's clichéed), expression, "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear". It is in place on the majority of the world, I lived in Holland and I had to carry an ID card at all times, or face a fine if caught without it. When I was on holiday in Japan, you had to carry a copy of your passport (preferably the actual passport though) with your visa or a gaijan (foreigners registration card).

Why isn't this the case in Ireland? I think that everyone should have to have at least one of the following on them, an ID card, a passport, or, if the person in question is against that, then they must put their fingerprints on a dossier, the gardaí will then be able to search this on a handheld device. Opinions?

shopaholic01

My eyes!

Can we have paragraphs please, instead of a wall of text?

ProudDUB

Ok, that hurts my eyes. Any chance of you breaking that up into paragraphs boss?

Ihatecuddles-old

I'd welcome mandatory paragraphs!

Fr_Fitzexactly

Ah Chemical Burn here ya go with the Big Brother / 1984 fantasy again.

No. I wouldn't be in favour of any privacy invading measures, microchip implants or the government holding DNA samples for all. I'm not afraid that the world is about to be taken over by scumbags and muslims if I don't give over my last remaining civil liberties to the government. To hell with this sort of nonsense

Casillas

What the hell is it with increasing surveillance? Can you not just feck off?

Shamozzle

Chemical Burn wrote: »

OK, folks. I know this has been done to death before, but all the threads are years old and / or have since been locked. I was reading the thread which says that the fine members of AGS have since been given an even bigger workload because of this bureaucratic nonsense which states that they have to prove beggars don't have a license rather than the beggars proving that they do. If the Garda sees one, there is no way on Earth of proving who they are or whether they were apprehended before. This can go for other crimes, a person can abscond after a crime and run out of the country. A person can be a serial offender etc. If a person (who is suspected of being in the country illegally) or of having committed a crime is stopped, there is no way of removing them or proving that, so the Garda has to let them go. If they are arrested to prove their ID, if this can not be conclusively proven after 24 hours, they Garda must let them go, as a Garda can only hold someone for up to 24 hours before having to let them free. There are a certain group of people notorious for begging (we all know who, no need to say it, bans, etc) and these people sometimes come from non-EU states, such as Moldova and other non-EU, EEA, Schengen states. If ID cards are brought in, then their identity can be proven. I believe in the (I know it's clichéed), expression, "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear". It is in place on the majority of the world, I lived in Holland and I had to carry an ID card at all times, or face a fine if caught without it. When I was on holiday in Japan, you had to carry a copy of your passport (preferably the actual passport though) with your visa or a gaijan (foreigners registration card). Why isn't this the case in Ireland? I think that everyone should have to have at least one of the following on them, an ID card, a passport, or, if the person in question is against that, then they must put their fingerprints on a dossier, the gardaí will then be able to search this on a handheld device.

Opinions?

Much better.

partyatmygaff

People who have something to hide will carry fakes (Unless you're looking at a digital system that can be checked on the spot) and people who don't have anything to hide will just be inconvenienced.

Chemical Burn

No. If no, justify your answer.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

People who have something to hide will carry fakes (Unless you're looking at a digital system that can be checked on the spot) and people who don't have anything to hide will just be inconvenienced.

Lengthy prison term for carrying fake ID or illegal immigration, we can share a dossier with the UK to stop people creeping into the UK then coming across essentially unhindered because of the Common Travel Area and vice vesa.

SB2013

You have to decide what level of information would be available. I'd be in favour of a central database of name + pps number + a thumb print to be used solely for the purpose of identification and available to all government departments. It would eliminate a large amount of fraud in different areas. I'd have no issue with a state ID card either but I don't think it should be mandatory to carry it or produce it on demand.

Chuck Stone

No. If I'm walking down the street minding my own business I expect to be left the fuck alone.

shopaholic01

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Lengthy prison term for carrying fake ID or illegal immigration, we can share a dossier with the UK to stop people creeping into the UK then coming across essentially unhindered because of the Common Travel Area and vice vesa.

Prison spaces aren't available, we have rapists and murderers released after less than 10 years.

Chemical Burn

No. If no, justify your answer.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Prison spaces aren't available, we have rapists and murderers released after less than 10 years.

A lot of those such convictions are fake, illegal immigration and identity theft are absolute and can be definitively proven.

Cienciano

SB2013 wrote: »

You have to decide what level of information would be available. I'd be in favour of a central database of name + pps number + a thumb print to be used solely for the purpose of identification and available to all government departments. It would eliminate a large amount of fraud in different areas. I'd have no issue with a state ID card either but I don't think it should be mandatory to carry it or produce it on demand.

I agree. If you're using any state department, you need to produce it.
But don't agree with having to carry them all the time. Even though if there was one, I would carry it all the time

Fr_Dougal

Chemical Burn wrote: »

A lot of those such convictions are fake, illegal immigration and identity theft are absolute and can be definitively proven.

WTF...seriously...

Legs.Eleven

Chuck Stone wrote: »

No. If I'm walking down the street minding my own business I expect to be left the fuck alone.

Yep. That's how I feel about it. I'm required to carry my passport at all times here in Madrid and I've been stopped a few times by the police. All they did was have a gawk at it and hand it back. I didn't see any point to it except to satisfy their nosiness. My details are none of their business unless I've committed a crime but unfortunately the police abuse that power. I saw police stop random dark skinned people one morning looking for their IDs. Ironically two of the people I was with were white skinned American working here illegally.

I think it causes a lot more hassle than it's worth and it'd lead to all kinds of abuse of power and racist profiling and Ireland and the UK get by perfectly fine without them.

shopaholic01

Chemical Burn wrote: »

A lot of those such convictions are fake, illegal immigration and identity theft are absolute and can be definitively proven.

Are you for real?

A lot of rapes and murders are proven by a variety of methods.

kneemos

Like you're poll,not biased at all.

Chemical Burn

No. If no, justify your answer.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Are you for real?

A lot of rapes and murders are proven by a variety of methods.

Such as a man having consensual sex with a woman who later changes her mind and accuses him of rape?

Or a innocent persons DNA being at a murder scene for other purposes?

Or a person being in the vicinity at night driving home from a party and is accused of arson?

WayneMolloy

No. If no, justify your answer.

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

Yep. That's how I feel about it. I'm required to carry my passport at all times here in Madrid and I've been stopped a few times by the police. All they did was have a gawk at it and hand it back. I didn't see any point to it except to satisfy their nosiness. My details are none of their business unless I've committed a crime but unfortunately the police abuse that power. I saw police stop random dark skinned people one morning looking for their IDs. Ironically two of the people I was with were white skinned American working here illegally.

I think it causes a lot more hassle than it's worth and it'd lead to all kinds of abuse of power and racist profiling and Ireland and the UK get by perfectly fine without them.

We are getting on perfectly fine, are we ?

There are nearly 1, 000, 000 million illegals residing in the British/Celtic Isles - http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-01-11/study-says-almost-a-million-illegal-immigrants-living-in-the-uk

Like most EU countries, we should make it mandatory to have an identity card to be on your person at all times.

shopaholic01

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Such as a man having consensual sex with a woman who later changes her mind and accuses him of rape?

Or a innocent persons DNA being at a murder scene for other purposes?

Or a person being in the vicinity at night driving home from a party and is accused of arson?

I said a lot, not all.

Do you think most, if not all, convictions are unsound, and as a result we should turn our attention to illegal immigrants?

Chemical Burn

No. If no, justify your answer.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

I said alot, not all.

Do you think most, if not all, convictions are unsound, and as a result we should turn our attention to illegal immigrants?

yes, they are the root of a lot of issues, because they are undocumented and can not be monitored

shopaholic01

Chemical Burn wrote: »

yes, they are the root of a lot of issues, because they are undocumented and can not be monitored

If they are undocumented and not monitored how do you know 'they are the root of a lot of issues'?

Are there 'new issues' we didn't have before?

the groutch

Poll is stupid, why should people who say NO apparently have to justify their vote, but not those who say YES.

shopaholic01

the groutch wrote: »

Poll is stupid, why should people who say NO apparently have to justify their vote, but not those who say YES.

Because voting no means you disagree with the OP.

partyatmygaff

the groutch wrote: »

Poll is stupid, why should people who say NO apparently have to justify their vote, but not those who say YES.

Because they're wrong obviously... (That and as they agree with the OP, there'll be nothing for them to justify).

Chemical Burn

No. If no, justify your answer.

the groutch wrote: »

Poll is stupid, why should people who say NO apparently have to justify their vote, but not those who say YES.

because I've justified my answer for being in favour duhhhh

artanevilla

If a law was brought in to carry ID at all times, I'd refuse to abide by it.

13spanner

No. If no, justify your answer.

Yes. It'll be something to put in my wallet to replace the money I don't have

Seriously though, I wouldn't be bothered either way. If it helps the whole system of things work better, grand. Usually I've 3 different ID's on me: Garda card, Laser and student card, drivers license too if I'm in the car.

Death and Taxes

Chemical Burn wrote: »

because I've justified my answer for being in favour duhhhh

No you haven't , you gave us an incoherent rant and a couple of illogical and inane posts , but you certainly have not justified your stance!

Anita Blow

Nope. I'm not a criminal so I shouldn't be treated like one while walking down the street.
If you've read the threads before then you definitely have seen your "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument blown to bits repeatedly. Would you allow everyone to read your private texts and emails? Watch you ****? No. Because you expect a certain level of privacy as a law abiding citizen and you shouldn't have to justify that right to anyone.

Senna

No Way Man, I dont want big brother knowing too much about me. I'm not pushed on my sister knowing too much either.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Chemical Burn wrote: »

I believe in the (I know it's clichéed), expression, "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear".

So how about if everyone needs to have state monitored CCTV in every room in their house? There's an awful lot of illegal activity that happens behind closed doors. If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear.
The expression has a nice ring to it, but how far do you want to stretch the truth in it? At what point does it no longer apply?

Chemical Burn wrote: »

I lived in Holland and I had to carry an ID card at all times, or face a fine if caught without it

Mmm, nothing to fear except naughty-boy fines if you forget to bring it.

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

I'd support it. Don't see how it would impose upon my civil liberties or privacy.

ToddyDoody

What's in it for me? Maybe if they gave me money to have one.

Fr_Fitzexactly

The yes crowd don't have to justify their answer at all according to OP. Not fair.

Nothing to hide is the greatest amount of bool shiit argument ever made

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

The nothing to hide argument wrt your privacy is fallacious but wrt your identity I think it holds up better.

Really, why would you have need to conceal your identity from an official who is entitled to ask for it?

(By that I mean an official in a situation where he/she is entitled to ask for it, not that they are always entitled to do so).

Chuck Stone

humbert wrote: »

Really, why would you have need to conceal your identity from an official who is entitled to ask for it?

If I want to walk down the street with my face covered I don't see why someone should be allowed to violently remove it.

That's police state **** that is.

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

If I want to walk down the street with my face covered I don't see why someone should be allowed to violently remove it.

That's police state **** that is.

I don't think the OP's suggesting that the gardai should be given increased powers to stop you, or that this ID is tattooed on your forehead.

Morag

No. If no, justify your answer.

They are slowly bringing it in, having to have your drivers license when driving and all newly issued PPS/social welfare/dole card will have photos and biometrics on them.

Palytoxin

I just want people to feck off and leave me and all my privacy alone in peace tbh.

lanyard

humbert wrote: »

I'd support it. Don't see how it would impose upon my civil liberties or privacy.

Papers Please.

Chuck Stone

humbert wrote: »

I don't think the OP's suggesting that the gardai should be given increased powers to stop you, or that this ID is tattooed on your forehead.

Mandatory ID cards.

The only way to make it mandatory would be to make it an offence to not have it. I'm presuming that not having it would lead to arrest and good luck with trying to resist arrest without having a couple of gaurds getting rough with you.

So essentially it's giving the police the power to throw you in a cell if you don't carry an ID.

That's ****ing insane and anyone who supports it needs their head examined imho.

They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mandatory ID cards.

The only way to make it mandatory would be to make it an offence to not have it. I'm presuming that not having it would lead to arrest and good luck with trying to resist arrest without having a couple of gaurds getting rough with you.

So essentially it's giving the police the power to throw you in a cell if you don't carry an ID.

That's ****ing insane and anyone who supports it needs their head examined imho.

You seem to be inferring that the gardai would be stopping people simply to check whether they are carrying ID. Something that doesn't happen in any of the other first world countries which have this system.

In reality the reason they would be mandatory is to stop people who would prefer to conceal their identity from saying they forgot it and undermining the entire purpose of the system.

Phoebas

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Mandatory ID cards.

The only way to make it mandatory would be to make it an offence to not have it. I'm presuming that not having it would lead to arrest and good luck with trying to resist arrest without having a couple of gaurds getting rough with you.

So essentially it's giving the police the power to throw you in a cell if you don't carry an ID.

That's ****ing insane and anyone who supports it needs their head examined imho.

It would be mandatory to carry it, but that doesn't imply any additional rights for the Gardai to demand to see it.

We could have a system where they were mandatory to carry, but the Gardai had to show just cause to demand to see it.

Chuck Stone

humbert wrote: »

You seem to be inferring that the gardai would be stopping people simply to check whether they are carrying ID. Something that doesn't happen in any of the other first world countries which have this system.

It could certainly be used as an excuse to stop someone and I don't believe for one second that it has never been used as an excuse by the police to hassle someone.

In reality the reason they would be mandatory is to stop people who would prefer to conceal their identity from saying they forgot it and undermining the entire purpose of the system.

What's wrong with concealing your identity? Do you think women who wear those face covering things should be criminalised for it?

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

It could certainly be used as an excuse to stop someone and I don't believe for one second that it has never been used as an excuse by the police to hassle someone.



What's wrong with concealing your identity? Do you think women who wear those face covering things should be criminalised for it?

I guess I should have been more explicit. Conceal their identity from an official who has the right to request it.

The first part of your post is just speculation.

twinQuins

Hey CB, since you've "nothing to hide", how about you post up your name, address, phone numbers, PPS number, bank account details, etc..

Unless... you actually do have something to hide, of course.

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

twinQuins wrote: »

Hey CB, since you've "nothing to hide", how about you post up your name, address, phone numbers, PPS number, bank account details, etc..

Unless... you actually do have something to hide, of course.

So you're equating allowing the entire internet to know your bank detail to allowing the gardai to know your name?

Chuck Stone

humbert wrote: »

I guess I should have been more explicit. Conceal their identity from an official who has the right to request it.

Like a police officer?

humbert

No. If no, justify your answer.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Like a police officer?

Precisely.