Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2013 03:31PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

I think she was an incredibly spiteful person, I have so much sympathy for people that commit suicide etc, But you do not drag innocent young children into it, lots of people have mental problems, but you dont see them murdering their children, surely at first thought of killing them she would of said to herself ''I need help'' , How could you look into 3 beautiful little childrens faces and decide to kill them?. I think in her mind it was'' if he cant have me, he's not having the kids either, this will make him sorry etc etc'' There is absolutely no excuse for murdering children and taking away their future from them because you cant go on.

I seriously doubt this is the first time that a parent has killed their own child...

Everyone with mental problems is different, so saying that "a lot of people have mental problems and don't murder their children" is not really appreciating the complexity and depths of mental illness. What she did is not excusable, but to be driven to murder her own children, there must have been something very, very wrong there.

Vicar in a tutu · 16-04-2013 03:35PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Do you think this has never happened before or something?

It's happened lots of times in the past and it will continue to happen.

I know that sadly.

Yeah, because insane people always think rationally.

No but they can go get help before it gets to the point of murdering their children. There are so many people out there with mental health problems, and they go get themselves looked after, they dont let it get worse and worse until they do something like this. Its something they owe to their children at least, to have a happy healthy parent. A responsibility.

You don't know shít.

Well I think i'm allowed have a guess. Excuse me for being furious that this woman is getting so much sympathy, she murdered her children.

Vicar in a tutu · 16-04-2013 03:37PM

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I seriously doubt this is the first time that a parent has killed their own child...

Everyone with mental problems is different, so saying that "a lot of people have mental problems and don't murder their children" is not really appreciating the complexity and depths of mental illness. What she did is not excusable, but to be driven to murder her own children, there must have been something very, very wrong there.

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Trudiha · 16-04-2013 03:44PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

...but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Sadly, this isn't always the case. Sometimes, folks with mental health problems can't think logically or reasonably.

MagicMarker · 16-04-2013 03:45PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

Again, you don't really seem to have a clue what you're talking about.

herisson · 16-04-2013 03:49PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

But do you not understand that sometimes people are so affected by their mental illness that their view of reality is distorted? That they thinks its normal for them to feel like this (not the killing your kids part). They think that its the only way out. It's up to them to realise they need the help but in a lot of cases they are so consumed by it they can't see that they need help.

Vicar in a tutu · 16-04-2013 04:02PM

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

But do you not understand that sometimes people are so affected by their mental illness that their view of reality is distorted? That they thinks its normal for them to feel like this (not the killing your kids part). They think that its the only way out. It's up to them to realise they need the help but in a lot of cases they are so consumed by it they can't see that they need help.

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

16-04-2013 04:06PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

The bit in bold is important

dark crystal · 16-04-2013 04:14PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

But many women fear they'll be institutionalized and/or their children will be taken from them if they seek help.

Some information on what might cause a mother to take such drastic actions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_psychosis

Andrea Yates methodically drowned her 5 children in a bathtub in her Texas home on June 20, 2001. Her mental health began to deteriorate with the birth of each of her children, combined with other external stressors. She attempted suicide twice and was hospitalized twice in a psychiatric facility in 1999 after delivering her fourth child. Yates was warned against having any more children, but conceived approximately 7 weeks later. Three months after the birth of her fifth child and shortly after the death of her father, she began to rapidly degenerate. She was hospitalized twice more, and eventually released with orders that she should not be left alone. During an hour when her husband had left for work and her mother-in-law was scheduled to arrive, she killed all five of her children. She was consequently committed to a high-security psychiatric hospital

Without knowing the facts about this woman's mental health (it mentions depression only passingly in the article), this could explain what drove her to do the unthinkable.

herisson · 16-04-2013 04:16PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course I can understand, and I had sympathy for her up until she murdered her children, obviously suicide isnt the kind of thing you mull over for a second, it's something you agonizingly think about, and I have never judged anybody before for commiting suicide, as we never know what's going on, but I really can't muster any sympathy for her because she took away the lives and chances of 3 little children, it is incredibly selfish and that's really just my stance on it.

Of course we never know what's going on. But the point I was making is the fact that sometimes people cant see that they need help. Sometimes they are so absorbed in the illness they have no hope and unfortunately some people resort to suicide.

I don't have sympathy for her after killing her kids. And I'm not defending her as much as my posts look like I am. I'm just stating that its not easy to realise you need help if you are so badly affected. Of course she needed help but it was up to her to get it. You can't exactly force someone to get help, it just drives them back further.

I hate the fact that she killed her kids. They had their whole lives ahead of them. Having a mental illness is no excuse for it, she took away 3 innocent lives at the end of the day.

Czarcasm · 16-04-2013 04:34PM

This suggests to me that the murders were pre-meditated-

Friends said the 23-year-old had been gripped by depression since splitting from their dad Craig McLelland and the day before the deaths she had posted a chilling message on Facebook warning she might harm them.

This suggests to me that she knew she needed help-

Karleigh Burlingham, 20, who knew Fiona, said: “She was friendly with my sister Kayleigh and she sent a Facebook message to her last night, saying that she was down and had nobody to talk to.

Choosing to take one's own life is one thing, choosing to pre-meditatively take another person's life is quite another thing entirely.

The fact that her family, friends and neighbours knew this was going on and chose to do nothing makes the whole thing even worse.

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2013 04:38PM

Vicar in a tutu wrote: »

Of course there is something wrong, and obviously not all mental illnesses fall under the same umbrella, but there is a point where you say to yourself, this isnt right, im hurting my children, and you seek help, you dont let it manifest until you destroy many lives around you.

People with severe mental illnesses are not likely to think rationally about something like this. Again, saying that she should have stopped and thought about the fact that she was hurting her children is not seeing how awful and all-consuming mental illness can be. Depression is a seriously debilitating illness. Getting help for it can be one of the hardest steps - some people have become so used to feeling the way that they do that they think it's normal, or some are literally crippled by it and cannot move from their beds, nevermind go to a doctor about it. If she was suffering a psychotic break, there was absolutely no way she was thinking straight and could have had the clarity of mind to realise what she was doing. Unfortunately, people with mental illnesses do occasionally end up hurting themselves and others, often under the impression that they're doing the right thing. It's not an excuse, but it just highlights even further how important the research and treatment of mental health is.

wolfpawnat · 16-04-2013 04:44PM

Sadly infanticide-suicide is all too prevalent and common here in Ireland, happening far too often, by both fathers and mothers and in some cases both together. My heart goes out to her and her family, she was clearly in a very bad place. Post, and indeed Pre-natal depression are horrific things and so many women suffer it, and now it has been proven to affect fathers too! Family should have heeded the warnings, but at the same time, hindsight is great foresight. I hope it is a lesson to us all.

It is easy to see where peoples anger comes into it too. Innocent children that did not deserve a tragic end. The mother was not well, she was not thinking straight, I have no doubt in her full senses she would more than likely never consider hurting her children, but she wasn't in her full senses, so all sensical arguments are invalid. But yes, it is understandable to be angry for the children, just try to accept the mother was not herself at that time.

I hope the little angels are at peace even with their tragic end

HondaSami · 16-04-2013 04:47PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

If you want to end your life do it alone

murdering innocent children disgusts me

No one agrees with it but she is their mother and she did not want to leave them, we don't know what she was thinking but id imagine she did it because she loves them and not because she wanted to murder them.

My heart goes out to the children's father and all their families.

Galwayguy35 · 16-04-2013 04:53PM

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

dark crystal · 16-04-2013 05:02PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

The murder of innocent children is always tragic, no matter who commits it.

Gorilla Rising · 16-04-2013 05:04PM

HondaSami wrote: »

No one agrees with it but she is their mother and she did not want to leave them, we don't know what she was thinking but id imagine she did it because she loves them and not because she wanted to murder them

Nobody will bat an eyelid at this because of the sympathy towards the woman, but as with other posts, it's mere speculation.

Personally, I don't believe that every single incident like this is the same and the people who kill their children don't all do it because they're feeling the exact same way. To think so shows even more of a lack of understanding in my opinion.

Some may do it out of spite, pre-meditation etc and some are genuinely helpless and have a valid (within the realms of depression) reason for doing so.

wolfpawnat · 16-04-2013 05:04PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

I think to ensure equality these days it is just called infanticide. How I wish such a word never needed to exist. There has been bias in the past, but it is changing these days. As I stated, it is now officially recognised that fathers too suffer PND.

HondaSami · 16-04-2013 05:10PM

fortune wookiee wrote: »

Nobody will bat an eyelid at this because of the sympathy towards the woman, but as with other posts, it's mere speculation.

Personally, I don't believe that every single incident like this is the same and the people who kill their children don't all do it because they're feeling the exact same way. To think so shows even more of a lack of understanding in my opinion.

Some may do it out of spite, pre-meditation etc and some are genuinely helpless and have a valid (within the realms of depression) reason for doing so.

I agree and im sure we will hear more about this in the next few weeks, her relationship with the father will be scrutinised and yes some probably do it out of spite but i guess it makes us feel better to think it's out of love.

Madam_X · 16-04-2013 09:14PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I notice in the media and it seems here as well that when a woman kills her kids it's called "tragic" but when a man does it he is rightly called a murderer.

I didn't see much coverage like that re the man in West Cork recently but there were such attitudes all right towards the father of Deirdre Crowley and John Hogan which I found too simplistic.
While obviously nothing excuses killing their children, the reasons for it cannot be ignored... in order to prevent it happening again. They seemed like extremely troubled men. Still obviously responsible for their actions, but something led to those actions, whether it be mental breakdown, desperation, both. Saying "Murdering bastard, **** his state of mind or circumstances" is an opinion people are entitled to have, but it's not a very constructive one.
Unfortunately there are cases of child killing which seem to be based on nothing but utter cruelty/callousness (e.g. Mick Philpott) but I think in the cases of the above, it's more complex. It's not cruelty that motivated them - well not Christopher Crowley anyway, bit harder to figure out Hogan. Crowley didn't want to be estranged from his daughter any longer so, tragically, did the ultimate to ensure that.

Re this woman, if mental illness was at the root of it: "She should have sought help when things started to get on top of her" - it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes a mental breakdown messes up a person's head so much that they don't even realise they're ill. Those people who go on about the CIA fitting a chip in their heads etc - they fully believe this is true, even though it's so absurd. To them, it makes perfect sense - the illness is that severe.
Maybe she did it just out of spite, but come on... doubtful.

As for selfish, yeh it was, but doubtfully selfish in the sense of "Feck everyone, I'll do what I like" - you don't kill your children and then yourself, going completely against your natural instincts, just to be a selfish asshole.

Chemical Burn · 16-04-2013 09:40PM

Not a singel ounce of sympathy for her. I feel very sorry for her ex-boyfriend left behind, and her kids, but none for her. If Hell exists, I hope she's in it. There was no need to take her kids with her. Suicidal tendencies equal homicidal thoughts. There was no need to take innocent children with her. Scummy thing to do.

If a man did this people wouldn't be so sympathetic towards him.

Big Bottom · 16-04-2013 09:46PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Not a singel ounce of sympathy for her. I feel very sorry for her ex-boyfriend left behind, and her kids, but none for her. If Hell exists, I hope she's in it. There was no need to take her kids with her. Suicidal tendencies equal homicidal thoughts. There was no need to take innocent children with her. Scummy thing to do.

If a man did this people wouldn't be so sympathetic towards him.

She was obviously suffering a severe mental illness, there is no need to be so cruel.

Chemical Burn · 16-04-2013 09:53PM

Big Bottom wrote: »

She was obviously suffering a severe mental illness, there is no need to be so cruel.

She killed her kids

PLEASE answer this, if it was her boyfriend that did this, and killed himself, would you be so sympathetic ?? that's what I though

Big Bottom · 16-04-2013 09:55PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

She killed her kids

PLEASE answer this, if it was her boyfriend that did this, and killed himself, would you be so sympathetic ?? that's what I though

If he was schizophrenic or something it wouldnt be his fault so I would be sympathetic.

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2013 09:55PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

She killed her kids

PLEASE answer this, if it was her boyfriend that did this, and killed himself, would you be so sympathetic ?? that's what I though

:rolleyes:

Chemical Burn · 16-04-2013 10:03PM

When that guy in America ran amok and killed kids, his mother then himself everyone said how much of scumbag he was and how bad he was, yet when this "person" does this to innocent kids everyone sheds a tear for her. Makes me sick with the double standards.

Czarcasm · 16-04-2013 10:04PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

She killed her kids

PLEASE answer this, if it was her boyfriend that did this, and killed himself, would you be so sympathetic ?? that's what I though

I think there's a hell of a lot more has yet to come out about this CB, I don't think for one second it's as cut and dry as "she was mentally ill, didn't want to leave the children behind, etc.".

I also think it's a bit reaching of posters here to be making some woeful leaps to try and explain the behaviour of a girl who quite honestly we know very little about.

seamus · 16-04-2013 10:05PM

Chemical Burn wrote: »

Not a singel ounce of sympathy for her. I feel very sorry for her ex-boyfriend left behind, and her kids, but none for her. If Hell exists, I hope she's in it. There was no need to take her kids with her. Suicidal tendencies equal homicidal thoughts. There was no need to take innocent children with her. Scummy thing to do.

If a man did this people wouldn't be so sympathetic towards him.

I wouldn't give up the day job and become a therapist just yet.

What you're confusing are malicious actions and malicious intentions. Thankfully most people do recognise the difference between the two, which is why manslaughter and murder are not the same crime, even though they have the same outcome and may have all the same actions.

The brain of a depressed person is not an ordered place. It's futile trying to attribute objectively logical reasoning to their actions. It makes sense to them, and to them only.

Most typically in these kinds of scenarios, the mentally ill person has made the decision to die. Not in a cry for help kind of way, in a very real, "It's time to go" kind of way. However, they do recognise that there are children who are dependent on them and that their death will have lifetime effects on those children. Not necessarily in the long-term, but in the short-term, there will be no-one to care for them.
To the suicidal person, living isn't a great thing. Life isn't awesome. When they look at a child, they don't see a lifetime of joy and fun, like we may do. They see child who will have to endure the never-ending torment and despair that is life, and on top of that they will have to suffer the death of a parent.

From that point of view, is it not more humane to end it now? Is it not the right thing to end the child's suffering right here and now?

Obviously that's not the reasoning in every case or even most cases, but the intent is rarely if ever malicious. In fact, it's the complete opposite; it's typically done as an expression of love, a final act of the greatest compassion.

Calling it scummy or evil is so far disconnected from understanding, I'm a little bit blown away.

There was a little bit more animosity (wrongly) shown towards the Cork man a few weeks back, but that's probably a symptom of society's typically pro-woman slant when it comes to children.

Steve O · 16-04-2013 10:06PM

No gender war starting meant here, but would we be talking about the Dad in the same way if it was him? Do men get to blame depression or hormones etc?

Absolutely reprehensible thing to do either way, plenty of people that suffer from depression don't go murdering their kids. The kids should've been taken off her after that facebook message.

Steve O · 16-04-2013 10:07PM

dark crystal wrote: »

The murder of innocent children is always tragic, no matter who commits it.

Well said.

Young Pregnant Woman murder-suicide

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