Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

sarumite · 16-04-2013 12:24PM

creedp wrote: »

What is brutally clear from this and the vast number of other threads which end up debating PS pay and conditions is that many non-PS are extremely interested in reducing the terms and conditions of the PS - just how that philosophy fits with being concerned with new entrant PS I'm confused with.

The two aspects are mutually exclusive. If you had bothered reading any of my previous discussion on PS pay, I have always supported benchmarking as opposed random pay cuts.

creedp · 16-04-2013 12:28PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

biggest increase in pay were in most useless departments like Public Expenditure and Reform and Office of Public Works.

Who do you think is negotiating the current pay cuts? I agree a useless Dept!

creedp · 16-04-2013 12:30PM

sarumite wrote: »

The two aspects are mutually exclusive. If you had bothered reading any of my previous discussion on PS pay, I have always supported benchmarking as opposed random pay cuts.

Funny benchmarking is universally derided when it resulted in pay increases - infact it is the single issue which brought the country to its knees .. presumably you're supporting negative benchmarking as opposed to randome cuts.

sarumite · 16-04-2013 12:35PM

creedp wrote: »

Funny benchmarking is universally derided when it resulted in pay increases - infact it is the single issue which brought the country to its knees .. presumably you're supporting negative benchmarking as opposed to randome cuts.

I support ongoing benchmarking. It should never have been a process that was applicable in good times only. There are aspects of the original benchmarking process that were not implemented fully. I believe these are the causes of much of the derision.

ardmacha · 16-04-2013 12:45PM

There are aspects of the original benchmarking process that were not implemented fully. I believe these are the causes of much of the derision.

The original benchmarking was an out and out disgrace. However, most of those calling for benchmarking envisage an equally disgraceful process with only one acceptable outcome.

sharper · 16-04-2013 12:46PM

creedp wrote: »

Are you for real .. get a grip. Imagine someone is castigated for trying to protect their own position .. a me feiner. Pray tell me what would you do in a similar circumstance? Presumably you'd go to your employer and say go on boy double that cut for me .. think about the customers!

Please read the thread before commenting. Dreamertime was the one that was castigating others as "Me Feiners" for voting in favour of CP2. I pointed out his behaviour is no different.

sharper · 16-04-2013 12:48PM

ardmacha wrote: »

The original benchmarking was an out and out disgrace. However, most of those calling for benchmarking envisage an equally disgraceful process with only one acceptable outcome.

The current manifestation of benchmarking (i.e. only when times are good) permits the utter disgrace to occur in one direction only.

A bad process applied consistently will at least average out over time. A bad process applied selectively is much much worse.

aliveandkicking · 16-04-2013 01:09PM

creedp wrote: »

Funny benchmarking is universally derided when it resulted in pay increases - infact it is the single issue which brought the country to its knees .. presumably you're supporting negative benchmarking as opposed to randome cuts.

Are you actually for real? Benchmarking was the single issue that brought the country to it's knees :eek: It wasn't the property bubble or the banks, no of course not - it was all benchmarking's fault!

In the interests of accuracy it is worth noting that the average increse awarded under the benchmarking process was 9.5%. The average cut public sector workers have suffered so far is 13% (pension levy & pay cut). So any increase awarded under benchmarking has more than been taken back at this stage.

Godge · 16-04-2013 01:23PM

Count Dooku wrote: »

a) keyword is "excluding the Local Authority sector"
b) increase of income includes 440 millions paid as retirement packages
c) most of wage increase is coming from last year tax decrease for high earners
d) if you will look on Table 4 EXCHEQUER PAY BILL – GROSS, you will see that biggest reduction in pay were in most critical services like Garda and HSE, and biggest increase in pay were in most useless departments like Public Expenditure and Reform and Office of Public Works.

sharper wrote: »

Actually it did - remember those that took early retirement got their tax free lump sum and then their pension. It's not called "PS Pay" but something else however you can't ignore the effect it would have on disposable income.

Absolute rubbish. What twisting of data. Let us look at the CSO claim again:

"The CSO figures show that the disposable income from all households was €86.27bn last year – up 2.5pc from 2011. There was a €1.9bn rise in profits for the self-employed and a €711m increase in wages."

So it refers to an increase in €711m in wages in 2012 (not pensions). But hey to give the PS-haters the best chance, we will exclude the €1.9 bn rise in profits for the private sector self-employed and just look at the €711m in wages and assume it includes pensions.

Then we use Count Dooku's own link:

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2013/Documents/Expenditure%20Report%202013%20Part%20IV.pdf

Table 4, which he references says that the estimated outturn for pay and pensions in the public sector in 2012 is €15.39 bn pay and €3.18 pensions giving a total aggregate of €18.57 bn. Now the key point is to find out what the outturn for 2011 was to see the increase. Here we go (using the same source to ensure consistency of data:

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final%20Part%204.pdf

This time table 4 gives us pay and pensions for 2011 so no need to add them up which means a total of €18.57 bn. Wow, they are almost exactly the same!!!!

That means, using the sources that Count Dooku has provided us with, the entire €711m in increased wages identified by the CSO came from increases in the private sector. Thank you Count for helping prove that pay increases are happening in the private sector while public servants suffer on.

P.S. For those of you wondering why the two years were the same in the public sector, one-off lump sums paid to those retiring in Feb. 2012 is the answer (as pointed out by sharper). Incidentally the forecast for 2013 shows a significant fall-off in both pay (€391m) as we don't have to pay as many public servants and pensions (€170m) as we don't have to pay lump sums even before any Croke Park 2 measures are considered. Good news for us private sector taxpayers.

Thanks again to the Count.

Dreamertime · 16-04-2013 01:27PM

Holy sh*t!!!

Sarah Bardon (mirror journo) reckons the SIPTU vote is no, on Twitter.

creedp · 16-04-2013 01:42PM

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Are you actually for real? Benchmarking was the single issue that brought the country to it's knees :eek: It wasn't the property bubble or the banks, no of course not - it was all benchmarking's fault!

In the interests of accuracy it is worth noting that the average increse awarded under the benchmarking process was 9.5%. The average cut public sector workers have suffered so far is 13% (pension levy & pay cut). So any increase awarded under benchmarking has more than been taken back at this stage.

Wait up !! I was trying to be ironic ... it obviously didn't work! I agree with you .. funny how a 10% increase is the disgrace that is benchmarking while what is going to a 20% reduction for some people post July 1 doesn't count for anything ..

creedp · 16-04-2013 01:48PM

sharper wrote: »

The current manifestation of benchmarking (i.e. only when times are good) permits the utter disgrace to occur in one direction only.

A bad process applied consistently will at least average out over time. A bad process applied selectively is much much worse.

More of the same . .an increase is the disgrace that is benchmarking ... a reduction is what?

sharper · 16-04-2013 01:48PM

Godge wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. What twisting of data. Let us look at the CSO claim again:

I'm not claiming that lump sum payments entirely explain the increase in disposable income but it's a factor that needs to be considered.

Sierra Oscar · 16-04-2013 02:04PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Holy sh*t!!!

Sarah Bardon (mirror journo) reckons the SIPTU vote is no, on Twitter.

Yeah, looks like its about to be shot down by SIPTU.

gerire · 16-04-2013 02:24PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Holy sh*t!!!

Sarah Bardon (mirror journo) reckons the SIPTU vote is no, on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/Shane_RossTD
Shane Ross TD on twitter said the rumour around Leinster house was a no vote by as little as 20 votes;

The announcement of the result was then put back

Ross then asked was there independent observers at these counts...

ParkRunner · 16-04-2013 02:26PM

Yes by Impact and No by Siptu it appears. CP2 looks doomed

20Cent · 16-04-2013 02:36PM

Looking like a No. Will Howlin cut 7% across the board now?
No way, big climbdown.
O'Connor must be considering his position as well.

Dufresne · 16-04-2013 02:38PM

Confirmed No
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10151585519442962&id=195232927961

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 16-04-2013 02:42PM

gerire wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Shane_RossTD
Shane Ross TD on twitter said the rumour around Leinster house was a no vote by as little as 20 votes;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0416/381586-croke-park-agreement/

SIPTU has voted to reject the proposed extension to the Croke Park agreement by a margin of 53.7% against 46.3% in favour.

Not a landslide, but a clear rejection by a margin of over 7%.

tayto lover · 16-04-2013 02:44PM

Now watch Fine Gael sit back and watch Labour commit hari kari.
It could lead to a huge split in Labour in the near future and their eventual downfall and Fine Gael having to call a General Election in the hope of getting an overall majority themselves.
Interesting times ahead.
Great to see workers standing up for themselves at last.

Sierra Oscar · 16-04-2013 02:45PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Now watch Fine Gael sit back and watch Labour commit hari kari.
It could lead to a huge split in Labour in the near future and their eventual downfall and Fine Gael having to call a General Election in the hope of getting an overall majority themselves.
Interesting times ahead.
Great to see workers standing up for themselves at last.

Not a hope of FG getting an overall majority at this stage to be honest. Ship has sailed on that one, opinion polling would suggest that they face seat losses.

gazzer · 16-04-2013 02:53PM

The government will just make a small number of concessions (possibly the removal of the extra half hour a day to the working day) and put the vote to the members again ala the Nice Treaty.

Also I heard it was only 65% of the members who voted.

Larbre34 · 16-04-2013 03:00PM

gazzer wrote: »

The government will just make a small number of concessions (possibly the removal of the extra half hour a day to the working day) and put the vote to the members again ala the Nice Treaty.

Also I heard it was only 65% of the members who voted.

Let that be a lesson to the rest of them.

Would have preferred a bigger no margin, but overall chuffed!

Feeling a little faint Mr. Howlin?

sean200 · 16-04-2013 03:06PM

20Cent wrote: »

Looking like a No. Will Howlin cut 7% across the board now?
No way, big climbdown.
O'Connor must be considering his position as well.

more like will Howlin survive?????????

sean200 · 16-04-2013 03:08PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Now watch Fine Gael sit back and watch Labour commit hari kari.
It could lead to a huge split in Labour in the near future and their eventual downfall and Fine Gael having to call a General Election in the hope of getting an overall majority themselves.
Interesting times ahead.
Great to see workers standing up for themselves at last.

Great to see public sector workers standing up for all workers in this country as croke park 2 would have cut all wages in ireland

sean200 · 16-04-2013 03:11PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Not a hope of FG getting an overall majority at this stage to be honest. Ship has sailed on that one, opinion polling would suggest that they face seat losses.

would agree for a majority you would need public sector workers and families voting FG and that will not happen
For some reason this period seems a bit like the last few months of the FF/Green government

Godge · 16-04-2013 03:15PM

sharper wrote: »

I'm not claiming that lump sum payments entirely explain the increase in disposable income but it's a factor that needs to be considered.

Re-read my post, I compared 2011 total public service pay and pensions including lump sums and 2012 total pay and pensions including lump sums and they were more or less exactly the same (about €20m in the difference if you dug down that far).

Therefore there is no other possible source for the CSO €711m increase in disposable income due to wages than the private sector.

noodler · 16-04-2013 03:29PM

I wonder will the Government also not be bound by the majority agreement and apply the extension to the unions who votes yes and the 7% to the unions that voted no.

Would seem a fairer way of doing things than a 7% cut across the board.

EDIT:

Seems to be 40.9% voting NO in the overall ICTU vote now (with just 26.4% voting yes). With the ASTI,IMO and IMNO almost certain to vote no, there is surely no real chance of an overall yes vote now.

MMAGirl · 16-04-2013 03:31PM

Howlin looks like the biggest idiot in the country now.
Once all the unions stick together now they wield a lot if power.

ardmacha · 16-04-2013 03:32PM

Therefore there is no other possible source for the CSO €711m increase in disposable income due to wages than the private sector.

But what about the increments? What about the increments? We were told that they were responsible!

INO reject by 95.4% to 4% (no real surprise there).

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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